odium A quick question about Odium.

[OscarTheSingingHobo]

There was a post on r/Cosmere recently by Pillar_of_S4lt.  You can find it here.  Essentially, they were asking about this death rattle from WoK.

Spoiler

"Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns."

My question is a little different from theirs.  From what I understand, the general consensus is that the last part of that death rattle is referring to Odium.  But why?  Why does he have that name?  "Broken" gives the impression that he is shattered, but he is unshattered, and has invested far less into a world than most other shards.  Is it his going around killing other shards that makes him "broken"?  I doubt this because he is simply following his intent, like the other shards are.  Has he gone mad, and that is why he is broken?  I doubt this, since he seems to be executing a (so far) successful plot to shatter the other Rosharian shards.  (I guess one could still be "mad" and intelligent and cunning.)  Is this perhaps not a reference to Odium, but to the holder, Rayse?  Could Rayse have been broken in some way before taking up the shard?  Is that part of why Hoid wrote what he did about him in the letter?  I would love to get some input from the Sanderson Savants as to how he fits this description.

 

As for the post by Pillar_of_S4lt, I do think the wording of this death rattle is interesting.  it gives the impression that there was some event that happened that separated the first half from the second half.  I think the most likely explanation is that the "event" is Odium gaining dominance in Roshar.  I believe this is a future event, since Cultivation is still unshattered, which would make this death rattle a prophecy like many of the others.  Perhaps that is how book 5 ends, with Odium shattering Cultivation, and the desolation being successful.  Books 6-10 would be humanity trying to clean up the mess and win the day.

However, what if the arrival of Odium was the "event"?  We know that Cultivation and Honor arrived at Roshar long before Odium did.  What if there was a third shard who went with them, and together the 3 of them "ruled".  This begs the question, where is that shard now?  Maybe it up and left when Odium arrived, out of fear.  Perhaps it left little bits of investiture on Roshar, such as the fish of the purelake (I haven't seen anything yet to explain how the fish work, and whether or not they are a manifestation of either Honor or Cultivation.  If there is a WoB out there I haven't found yet, someone please let me know).  I don't have the exact words with me, but in Arcanum Unbounded, Khriss alludes to the idea that there may be more going on in Roshar than meets the eye, some deeper system of magic.  Do we know what that is?  Could that be a third shard at work, or the leftover bits of one that left?  Overall, I find the theory of a third original shard on Roshar to be a bit of a stretch, but I haven't found anything that outright disproves it.  

 

Thoughts, anyone?

[Calderis]

That death rattle is... Problematic. 

The "broken one" definitely refers to Odium. The 16 makes it clear that the 3 is in reference to the Shards of Adonalsium. 

But then we have this. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=691#13

Quote

CHAOS

How many Shards have existed on Roshar?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Three

It never says "at one time," just how many. 

So Honor, Cultivation, and Odium are the only Shards to have touched Roshar. 

[Crucible of Shards]

What interests me is the lack of conflict in the phrase "Three of sixteen ruled"

It allows for a peaceful coexistence, which Odium is... not compatible with for an extended period of time. Interesting theory.

[OscarTheSingingHobo]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

So Honor, Cultivation, and Odium are the only Shards to have touched Roshar. 

Ah, that is what I have been missing.  Thank you for pointing out that WoB.  This raises another question.  Is Brandon referring to Roshar as a planet, or to Roshar as a system?  If Brandon is referring to Roshar as a planet, then the 3 would be Odium, Honor, and Cultivation (although Odium is on Braize, he seems to have a lot of influence on Roshar, especially during desolations).  If the death rattle, however, is referring to the System on a whole, then perhaps there was a shard on Ashyn at one point, but is no longer there.  This WoB is interesting in this context:

 

Quote

 

QUESTION

Can you tell us which Shard is with [The Silence Divine]?

BRANDON SANDERSON

This is a world that does not currently have a Shard.

 

"Does not currently" have a shard can mean many things.  Maybe it never had one to begin with and never will have one, that it had one that left, or that it will get one in the future.  What if the death rattle was referring to the Roshar System on a whole, and not just the planet?  What if there was a third shard on Ashyn, but it fled when Odium arrived, leaving behind traces of investiture like Ambition did on Therondy.  Or perhaps its like First of the Sun, having a natural amount of pre-shattering investiture present.  We do know that Adonalsium took some interest into the development of Roshar as a planet (due to the Pangaea land mass following a Julia set pattern), perhaps he spent a little time working on Ashyn too, and left some investiture behind?

Or perhaps I'm just reading too much into the wording of that WoB. .  That can be a slippery slope, sometimes.

 

 

 

As for the fish and the purelake, if there is something to them, it has to be because of either Honor, Odium, or Cultivation.  I'm guessing its not Odium, since is tries to invest as little as possible.  My guess is Cultivation, but I don't really have any reasoning to back that up.

Any thoughts as to why Odium is called "The Broken One"?

 

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, OscarTheSingingHobo said:

As for the fish and the purelake, if there is something to them, it has to be because of either Honor, Odium, or Cultivation.  I'm guessing its not Odium, since is tries to invest as little as possible.  My guess is Cultivation, but I don't really have any reasoning to back that up.

If there is something to these, I actually think it's most likely akin to to how we know some spren existed prior to the Shards arrivals, and is part of the latent investiture of Adonalsium. 

[Andy92]

The only Shard on Roshar that's broken as far as shattering is concerned is Honor. Never know, could actually be a positive prophecy (which I know seems few and far between in these books lol). But it could be alluding to a victory where Honor eventually reigns over Roshar despite being broken. 

[+Extesian]

Quote

 

LINDEL

Crem and the Purelake on Roshar. Do they have any connection to Cultivation?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Both existed on the planet before Cultivation arrived.

QUESTION

But both are influenced by her now?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, she influences both.

 

Accidentally posted that WoB and can't move it. 

This is an interesting post. Broken one is a strange way to refer to Odium, and it seems strange to refer to three ruling (though maybe each was on a different Roshar system planet). Ambition is broken but I can't see how he/she reigns.

A couple of WoBs on that ands the Purelake. I'm pretty sure the Purelake fish are fish bonded with sentient spren.

Quote

OUTIS

The line about three of sixteen reigned and now the Broken One rules. Did Odium follow three other shards to Roshar, or is he the third Shard?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Odium is the third Shard on Roshar

Quote

QUESTION

Are any of the fish in the PurelakeInvested?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The fish in the Purelake, like the Ryshadium and other things you will see, are not 100% normal.

 

[kaellok]

A few thoughts:

First, remember that the Stormfather tells Kaladin that humans fight all the time because "Odium reigns."  (The Way of Kings, hardcover, p.648.  First edition, August 2010.)

Second, there is a WoB from some years ago that I remember but cannot find again where some question had been asked regarding a Shard's name that we hadn't learned yet, and the answer was essentially that he is very careful and deliberate with the name of the Shard (Preservation and not Life, Odium and not Hate, etc.) and that at times the name that he has imagined for them changes somewhat. 

So, we know that Odium is the one that reigns, because of in-text using that specific word.  But what is the difference between Rule and Reign?  That seems to be the root question.

A quick Google search gives us a few useful differences.  In particular I find the sentence "Reign is also used to indicate something that is predominant or prevalent as in the reign of terror or panic reigned" to be fascinating and mostly appropriate.  This seems particularly appropriate given a contrast between what life would be like when Odium reigns vs. Honor; hatred and hostility towards people that are different seems to be closer to the standard nature of people on Roshar, with those that are tolerant being the exceptions.  We can see this direct contrast referred to frequently by people who mock Dalinar's adherence to the Codes, especially from Sadeas.  Those people who view the Codes as something written after the fact so that the people seemed honorable, rather than a way of life.

So this all means, to me, that at one point in time 3 Shards ruled over the planets in the Roshar system, but ever since Odium Splintered Honor and caused Cultivation to retreat into listlessness and passivity, Odium reigns supreme.

If the question is more about why Odium is referred to as the Broken One, there's a few options.  Again, looking at the definition and synonyms for the word.  From dictionary.com, definitions 4 (not working properly; out of order) and 7 (fragmentary or incomplete) or 8 (infringed or violated) seem interesting.  Of course, many of these seem to imply that they could be referring to Honor instead.  The problem with that is that Honor is dead; the Stormfather watched him die, and then fled.  Coming as it does in Words of Radiance, where there are already supposedly dead people returning to life, I really hope this is not another case of "no body, no death" and that Honor is just hiding out somewhere alive, but divested of the vast majority of his power.  (Of course, that is an unrelated tangent, since someone without power by definition cannot reign.)

End rambling wall of text.

[TheDoomsday]

Perhaps he is called the Broken One because of the deaths he has caused. Doesn't make too much sense but it's always what I thought.

[Secret Ardent Man]

On 7/28/2017 at 3:49 PM, Crucible of Shards said:

What interests me is the lack of conflict in the phrase "Three of sixteen ruled"

It allows for a peaceful coexistence, which Odium is... not compatible with for an extended period of time. Interesting theory.

This is the most interesting part of the problem for me too. It's difficult to conceive of Odium peacefully coexisting with the other Shards at any point, even if it was for just a short time.

Ruin and Preservation were able to work together to create Scadrial, and I believe Ruin says that both of their powers were needed to create humans, and his power is what causes them to age and eventually die...there could be a continuing theme in Brandon's work of a perfect "paradise" not being all it's cracked up to be. One cannot appreciate life without struggle and death. Maybe Honor and Cultivation, ruling by themselves, could only create a boring pastel world where no growth or development occurred. It could be that Odium and "hate" were necessary to provide context and value to "honor," as there is no value in honor easily obtained without consequence or challenge.

The question I still have, then, is what does it mean to "rule?" Could it just mean Odium had a hand in influencing the creatures/humans on Roshar, such that a bit of him is in everything? I really don't know, since he's supposed to be stuck on Braize. 

[kaellok]

@Secret Ardent Man and @Crucible of Shards

It could very easily be said that, during the Cold War, the US and the USSR both ruled--but neither of them reigned.

[Calderis]

21 minutes ago, kaellok said:

@Secret Ardent Man and @Crucible of Shards

It could very easily be said that, during the Cold War, the US and the USSR both ruled--but neither of them reigned.

Exactly to rule, you control your respective domain. 

To Reign, you are the unchallenged ultimate force. A "reign of terror" is when someone commits heinous acts and no one can stop them. 

So the question is, what exactly is Cultivation doing? 

[Yezrien]

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

So the question is, what exactly is Cultivation doing? 

If Cultivation is anything like Preservation, her intent probably makes it very hard for her to do any violence. So she's around, and she's one of the good guys, but she can't participate directly in the conflict with Odium. She can try to undermine him in subtle ways, but she can't overtly challenge his "reign."

Before I saw this thread, I always interpreted "the Broken One" as a simple reference to Odium's evil and insanity, but it's interesting to think there might be more to it than that. Maybe he's broken because his power is divided, with too much of it invested in Roshar. Broken in two, so to speak, half on Roshar and half on Braize.

[Krandacth]

10 hours ago, Belzedar said:

If Cultivation is anything like Preservation, her intent probably makes it very hard for her to do any violence. So she's around, and she's one of the good guys, but she can't participate directly in the conflict with Odium. She can try to undermine him in subtle ways, but she can't overtly challenge his "reign."

Actually, I believe there was a WoB that suggests that Brandon considers Cultivation one of the most potentially destructive/dangerous of the Shards... 

EDIT: Actually, I had it skewed in my head, but I think it's still relevant: http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=944#8

Quote

NEPENE

I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him—Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.

That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.

This suggests that, if anything, Cultivation is more similar to Ruin than Preservation. (Mistborn era 2)

Spoiler

Ruin and Preservation being obviously dissimilar and, presumably, fairly incompatible, as their conflicting Intents have supposedly left Harmony pretty much neutered.

 

Edited July 31, 2017 by Krandacth
WoB

[Calderis]

@Belzedar @Krandacth

This is the closest I could find to a Cultivation is dangerous WoB in the "Cultivation is most compatible with Ruin" line. 

Spoilered for length. 

Spoiler

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=944#8

AUTARCHK (MARCH 2013)

If I can ask a question, I just read the Mistborn trilogy and, were Preservation and Ruin two different shards or a single one with their power split somehow? If they were two shards, does that mean a single person can hold more than one, since Harmony apparently holds both now?

BRANDON SANDERSON

They were two shards.

Yes, one entity can hold more than one. Remember that holding a shard changes you, over time. Rayse knows this, and prefers to leave behind destroyed rivals as opposed to taking their power and potentially being overwhelmed by it.

NEPENE

I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him—Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.

That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.

Cultivation isn't like Preservation. She's not about maintaining, she's not even wholely about growth/life, though that's definitely a part of it. But I strongly doubt it's limited solely to living things. 

"Cultivation" is about directed and intelligent growth. You can trim, and prune, and cull as needed so long as it serves your end goal. Cultivation, by definition, lends itself to Subtlety and planning. 

The argument that The Diagram has been influenced by Cultivation and not Odium is based on this idea and it makes a lot of sense. Selectivity prune the humans of the world so only the strongest and most ruthless/intelligent/cohesive survive to rebuild and create a stronger society for the future. 

It's all about a goal, and incremental gains by whatever means necessary, even if it appears to be taking the a big step backwards to make progress. 

I think that Cultivation is most likely one of the most dangerous Shards, because when she sets a goal, she's going to work towards it and subtly plan to deal with anything in her way, and as one of the Shards with a talent for foresight, she's going to have plans in place to deal with whatever you throw at her.

Edit: and Krandacth pulled the same WoB while I was writing. 

Edited July 31, 2017 by Calderis

[Krandacth]

@Calderis You took the words right out of my mouth (and WoB right out of my editted post :-P). Unfortunately, it is my thumbs transmitting my words on here, and that would have been too much for them to manage on my morning commute. Kudos for picking up their slack with such eloquence.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Krandacth

[+Extesian]

Hmmmmmm this

Quote

Q: Are things that are written by scholars on Roshar suspect? In Mistborn, Ruin could change anything that was written down, so can Odium do the same? Are written words on Roshar: untrustworthy, trustworthy because that ability was somehow limited to Ruin, or trustworthy because Odium COULD do it but just won't because it's not his style/he doesn't consider it?
 
A: Odium didn't have a hand in creating Roshar, and his essence doesn't permeate it in the same way as Ruin permeated Scadrial. This gave Ruin a great deal more power over things like this--except when he ran into metals, of course. Another difference is that Odium has a fully-living, fully-aware, and very powerful Shard opposing him. (Contrasted to one that was half-dead and going mad.) So yes, you can trust much of what was written. Odium can be subtle when he needs to be, but his primary avenue of attack has been along a different line than the one Ruin used.