Let's talk Graves!

[Toaster Retribution]

So, Graves, Moashs new BFF and a shardbearer who is a member of the Diagram. I am for some reason pretty fond of the guy (I like him way more than I like Moash) and when I looked into WoR lately, I came upon the section where Moash and Kaladin talks about him. Accoording to Moash, he doesnt care about other peoples opinions of him, and married a darkeyes despite the fact that he is a lighteyes. He actually sounds like a pretty decent guy. So, anyone else who likes him (or has a general opinion on him)? Do you think he is as cool as Moash says he is?

[Calderis]

Yes and no. His progressive opinions are likely rooted in the fact that by following the Diagram, he knows that Vorinism is a lie, and the basis of rule by the lighteyes is a lie with it. 

He's also actively trying to bring about the events of the Diagram, so while he thinks he's doing what's needed, he's dissociative enough to be alright with the majority of the world dying. 

[manukos]

Well he is a diagramist so he follows Terry

and as we know taravagian is G O A T , so I like him 

the part about his wife could be lie to make Moash trust him tho 

Idk but we will probably see more of him .

[Bladestorm]

Tbh I kinda hate Moash. He does nothing but whine, his character is a little weak. Graves is much more interesting-I get the feeling that everything he's said so far is true, at least in his mind. And the fact that he just happens to be a sharbearer makes him even more intriguing. 

[+hwiles]

59 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

So, Graves, Moashs new BFF and a shardbearer who is a member of the Diagram. I am for some reason pretty fond of the guy (I like him way more than I like Moash) and when I looked into WoR lately, I came upon the section where Moash and Kaladin talks about him. Accoording to Moash, he doesnt care about other peoples opinions of him, and married a darkeyes despite the fact that he is a lighteyes. He actually sounds like a pretty decent guy. So, anyone else who likes him (or has a general opinion on him)? Do you think he is as cool as Moash says he is?

I think Moash is a bit naive and got sucked in by Graves' charm.  Considering that while Graves was working to kill Elhokar, other Diagramists were working to kill Dalinar, I'd guess that Graves' stated intention of saving Alethkar from an incompetent king and bringing about the rule of integrity and strength through Dalinar is, at best, deliberately misleading, and, more likely, an outright lie.  I assume he's actually trying to unite as much of Alethkar under Mr. T as possible, or failing that, splinter the kingdom so Mr. T can pick up as many of the pieces as he can later.

That said, I like all of the Diagramists we've seen so far and how they contribute to the narrative.  They believe, with fairly good reason in my opinion, that what they're doing is necessary for the survival of mankind.  The fact that they might be wrong and consistently do evil things makes them unethical, dishonorable, and loathsome, but many of them actually display evidence of strong moral fiber and high intelligence; some of their moral codes are bizarre, but that doesn't make them invalid.  They represent a powerful, and realistic, contrast to the Radiants.  Where the Radiants are magically bound by rules and codes, the Diagramists are willing to do whatever they have to in order to ensure victory, which is reminiscent of real-life nations for whom "honor" is much less valuable than "survival."  Not every battle can be won through "leading by example," "being honorable," and "staying true to your self."  Whether the battle against Odium is one of these times remains to be seen.  It's possible the Diagramists are wrong and what they're doing is not only evil, but ultimately counter-productive, but, right or wrong, they make for an interesting faction.

[Calderis]

@hwiles I completely agree. You can tell that Taravangian sincerely regrets the things he believes he has to do. He's haunted, and believes himself beyond redemption, but is pushing forward regardless. He's probably my favorite character. 

[+Extesian]

44 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@hwiles I completely agree. You can tell that Taravangian sincerely regrets the things he believes he has to do. He's haunted, and believes himself beyond redemption, but is pushing forward regardless. He's probably my favorite character. 

"It's not my place to ask. I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin...I'm not going to live there... There's no place for me there, any more than there is for you. Malcolm, I'm a monster. What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done."

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Extesian said:

"It's not my place to ask. I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin...I'm not going to live there... There's no place for me there, any more than there is for you. Malcolm, I'm a monster. What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done."

"They’ll come at you sideways. It’s how they think. It’s how they move. Sidle up and smile. Hit you when you’re weak. Sort of man they’re like to send believes hard. Kills and never asks why."

Edit: you've ruined my brain @Extesian. The Diagram is forever filled with operatives

Edited July 11, 2017 by Calderis

[+Extesian]

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

"They’ll come at you sideways. It’s how they think. It’s how they move. Sidle up and smile. Hit you when you’re weak. Sort of man they’re like to send believes hard. Kills and never asks why."

Edit: you've ruined my brain @Extesian. The Diagram is forever filled with operatives

He is possibly one of my favorite fictional characters compared to the screen time he got

[Crucible of Shards]

11 hours ago, FiveLate said:

Graves also knows Lytil, so has obviously been exposed to some ideas that are completely of the chart on Roshar.  Simple interaction could cause a more liberal output.  

When does this happen? I can't remember this at all.

[Ceradis]

On 7/11/2017 at 2:11 PM, hwiles said:

I think Moash is a bit naive and got sucked in by Graves' charm.  Considering that while Graves was working to kill Elhokar, other Diagramists were working to kill Dalinar, I'd guess that Graves' stated intention of saving Alethkar from an incompetent king and bringing about the rule of integrity and strength through Dalinar is, at best, deliberately misleading, and, more likely, an outright lie.  I assume he's actually trying to unite as much of Alethkar under Mr. T as possible, or failing that, splinter the kingdom so Mr. T can pick up as many of the pieces as he can later.

So iirc many of the Diagramists pursue their own goals within the diagram itself. There is a part of the Diagram that says Mr. T will either have to make an ally of Dalinar or end up assassinating him. I think that Graves' original goal was to get Elokhar out of the way fast enough for that to happen but it ended up taking too long. If I can find the quote that made me think that I'll post it here.

Edit: here is the quote I was talking about.

We’re allowed to pursue our own interests and goals until we’re called up.” He shook his head. “I thought for sure my interpretation was correct, that if we removed Elhokar, Dalinar would become our ally in what is to come. . . . Well, it appears I was wrong.

Edited July 17, 2017 by kalaxin