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The Scouring of Aimia


Calderis

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More crazy speculation from me. Let's start with tWoK's back cover. 

Quote

I long for the days before the Last Desolation.

The age before the Heralds abandoned us and the Knights Radiant turned against us. A time when there was still magic in the world and honor in the hearts of men.

The world became ours, and we lost it. Nothing, it appears, is more challenging to the souls of men than victory itself.

Or was that victory an illusion all along? Did our enemies realize that the harder they fought, the stronger we resisted? Perhaps they saw that the heat and the hammer only make for a better grade of sword. But ignore the steel long enough, and it will eventually rust away.

There are four whom we watch. The first is the surgeon, forced to put aside healing to become a soldier in the most brutal war of our time. The second is the assassin, a murderer who weeps as he kills. The third is the liar, a young woman who wears a scholar's mantle over the heart of a thief. The last is the highprince, a warlord whose eyes have opened to the past as his thirst for battle wanes.

The world can change. Surgebinding and Shardwielding can return; the magics of ancient days can become ours again. These four people are key.

One of them may redeem us.

And one of them will destroy us.

By that quote, we know that the Dysian Aimians (A.K.A. The sleepless, the authors of the back cover) know that the final desolation was a lie. Historically they were allies of humanity. 

Now in current day Roshar, the Aimians are associated with the Voidbringers. Aimia has been scoured, and Aimians are seemingly persecuted (see Axies and his frequent attempts to find captivityspren). 

I think the association with the Voidbringers, and the scouring are both link to the Aimians knowledge that the Heralds lied. 

If the Aimians attempted to convince the human nations that the desolations would return, it would have been an attack on any religion that incorporated the Heralds. 

If there were a strong enough backlash to this, Vorin nations, and those who see the Heralds as true Divinities both would have struck. 

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Now WoK was my first Cosmere book. Been years.

Quote

There are four whom we watch. The first is the surgeon, forced to put aside healing to become a soldier in the most brutal war of our time. The second is the assassin, a murderer who weeps as he kills. The third is the liar, a young woman who wears a scholar's mantle over the heart of a thief. The last is the highprince, a warlord whose eyes have opened to the past as his thirst for battle wanes.

1. Surgeon = Kaladin.

2. Assasin = Assasin in White.

3. Liar = Shallon.

4. Warlord = Dalinar.

Quote

One of them may redeem us.

And one of them will destroy us.

My guess..

1. Redeemer = Dalinar or Assasin in White.

2. Destroyer = Kaladin.

This is interesting indeed. I have forgotten this. Thanks for reminding me.

Gonna reread WoK and WoR plus Edgedancer before Oathbreaker.

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When reading slowly there are some parts there that seem particularly interesting, as usually discussion focuses on the four.

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

I long for the days before the Last Desolation.

The age before the Heralds abandoned us and the Knights Radiant turned against us. A time when there was still magic in the world and honor in the hearts of men.

The world became ours, and we lost it. Nothing, it appears, is more challenging to the souls of men than victory itself.

Or was that victory an illusion all along? Did our enemies realize that the harder they fought, the stronger we resisted? Perhaps they saw that the heat and the hammer only make for a better grade of sword. But ignore the steel long enough, and it will eventually rust away.

There are four whom we watch. The first is the surgeon, forced to put aside healing to become a soldier in the most brutal war of our time. The second is the assassin, a murderer who weeps as he kills. The third is the liar, a young woman who wears a scholar's mantle over the heart of a thief. The last is the highprince, a warlord whose eyes have opened to the past as his thirst for battle wanes.

The world can change. Surgebinding and Shardwielding can return; the magics of ancient days can become ours again. These four people are key.

One of them may redeem us.

And one of them will destroy us.

Bolded the relevant parts. Longing for the days before the Last Desolation seems madness, after all it was Desolation after Desolation, with humanity been practically wiped out over and over. Makes one wonder what happened afterwards to make that constant destruction seem something to yearn for. Even the destruction of Aimia doesn't seem enough, unless the scouring was a lot more major than we have guessed at so far. 

"KR turned against us" seems quite specific, and it actually lends credence to all the religions that say the KR betrayed humanity, except maybe it wasn't humanity they betrayed, but the Aimians. However, since he says the KR betrayal is when things started going wrong, that clashes with the timing of Aimia, which we know is a lot more recent. 

"Magics of ancient days can become ours again" raises some questions, such as was the losing of those magics linked to the breaking of the Oathpact? The Recreance? Why is it so important that the Heralds turned their backs on them? How can they recover the magics? The same way the spren are returning? Just because a new Desolation is coming? Is this reaffirming Gavilar's belief that humanity needs a threat to be united?

Finally, it seems interested that it says one of the four may "redeem us", not save us, just redeem. What did they do to need redeeming? Is it been redeemed in the eyes of Honor, or the KR, or another party?

Sorry if these have been asked before, most comments on this I have seen focus on who may redeem, and who will destroy. If they have been answered, is there a specific thread to look at?

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I agree with all that has been said. In addition, I believe the last two lines do not refer to Roshar as a whole, but rather to the Aimians. "Redeem" is not quite the same as "save" - redeeming seems to imply that somebody was falsely accused and has been vindicated. This term would make much more sense referring to the Aimians, once allies now believed by all to be enemies, than to Roshar.

If this is true, it seems that one of the Four will be responsible for destroying all of the remaining Aimians. This seems chilling, and I have no clue how they could accomplish this. When it comes to fighting capability, Szeth and Kaladin certainly take the cake, at least in their current state. However, I believe that against the Sleepless, soulcasting (at least of the form Jasnah displayed, which seems like it is different from Shallan's) would be much more effective than swinging swords around. So, if one of the Four directly murders the Aimians, my bet is it will be Shallan. That said, one of the four may simply indirectly cause their deaths.

Edited by Lightspine
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We really think this is about the Amians?" They are on Team DON'T BREAK ROSHAR just like most Bipeds.

 Isn't this just about Odium leaving humans alone for a long time so that the planet would stop hardening itself for battle? Basically, Odium let us get chubby.

Edited by teknopathetic
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Just now, teknopathetic said:

We really think this is about the Amians? Isn't this just about Odium leaving humans alone for a long time so that the planet would stop hardening itself for battle? Basically, Odium let us get chubby.

I meant only the last two lines of the passage. I agree that all the prior stuff makes much more sense when applied to Roshar as a whole.

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If the Amians wanted humans to understand that void bringers were returning, I wonder why they hide 'The Secret" on that one island from everyone. I am so curious what is up there. If the secrets were large enough to prove anything... 

The amount if religious persecution of the old magics certainly does remind me of the influence of Ruin on paper. Anyone else think Odium or Autonomy/Trell (not sure if they are the same yet) have been seeding religions to much up this planet? The religious upheavals seem awfully coordinated in order to weaken Roshar as a whole. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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15 hours ago, Thanatos said:

1. Surgeon = Kaladin.

2. Assasin = Assasin in White.

3. Liar = Shallon.

4. Warlord = Dalinar.

My guess..

1. Redeemer = Dalinar or Assasin in White.

2. Destroyer = Kaladin.

I'm not sure about those guesses.

A. I don't know if we are talking of Redeeming/Destroying everyone, or just the Amians.

And B. Brandon tends to try and be unpredictable. Which means that I'd expect him to set someone up as the "Savior" only to have their "saving" act be one of destruction, or vice versa. At the same time, he already did that with WoA, so if he was trying to really be unpredictable, he might make it the obvious, and thus discarded one of the 4. So, I think that there is a solid chance that Szeth be the destroyer and Dalinar or Kaladin be the savior. At the same time, I could see Shallan being one of the two, seeing as she is the one I'd least expect.

So, to me this becomes a game very similar to the Sicilian in Princess Bride: He might do the classic move, the unexpected, or the classic to be unexpected, or some other weird thing. Hopefully that makes sense. All that to say that it could be any of them.

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Lord Maelstrom,

The Surgeon, Assasin, Liar and Warlord are quiet clear. 

The Redeemer and Destroyer are the unknowns, guess work. 

I think the obvious choice is Dalinar or Szeth as the redeemer and Kaladin as the Destroyer. As i think Kaladin will end up being Odiums champion, wheather he has a choice in the matter or not. 

But your right about Brandon being unpredictable.

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4 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

I think the obvious choice is Dalinar or Szeth as the redeemer and Kaladin as the Destroyer. As i think Kaladin will end up being Odiums champion, wheather he has a choice in the matter or not. 

When you say something like Kaladin is going to be Odium's champion... That requires some explanation. 

Your reasoning behind this? 

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Calderis,

Its only a theory. 

Kaladins emotions go up and down all the time. His own ethics turned Syl and the Storm Father from him. 

Although he wants to be a good person his life experiences make him who he is. And revenge and vengence is part of his nature. 

Its been years since ive read Stormlight but doing a reread in the next few months. Will take notes about the four when i do.

 

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Calderis

I agree it would be disappointing. But given his life i would also understand. His only human, or sentient as all sentient beings could act this way.

(I believe most if not all animals are sentient, have since a kid.)

...

Edit...

Kaladin not only has hatred and disgust in his personality, Odium himself 'appeared' to him in a high storm!

Who else has Odium so overtly appeared to?

Edited by Thanatos
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I think that having Kaladin as the Destroyer would be kind of unexpected, which, if executed right, would mean a good twist. However, I'm thinking that the only way that would work would be Kaladin ending up in a Taravangian situation, and has to choose between two bad things. And the bad thing he chooses will result in the death of the Aimians. However, I dont think Brandon will do this, since Kaladin is the most unexpected one, and therefore, in a way, the most predicted obe as well. 

Szeth is pretty much out too, given that he is the one everybody would naturally expect. I don't think he will do it. 

That basically leaves Shallan and Dalinar. I could see both doing it, but Im going to vote Dalinar (unless he dies in Oathbringer). He has the job of being in charge, and I could definitely see him thinking that the Aimians are of Odium, and needs to be wiped out for some reason. I could see him do that. Or Shallan. She is pretty much the wild card. She could be the redeemer though, if she finds an ancient script or something that tells of their actions. Would be cool if she finds that, races after Dalinar to stop him, but arrives too late. So my bet is:

Redeemer: Shallan

Destroyer: Dalinar

On another note, do we think that this concerns all Aimians, or just the Dysians (Axies cant die... :-( 

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2 hours ago, Thanatos said:

Calderis

I agree it would be disappointing. But given his life i would also understand. His only human, or sentient as all sentient beings could act this way.

(I believe most if not all animals are sentient, have since a kid.)

...

Edit...

Kaladin not only has hatred and disgust in his personality, Odium himself 'appeared' to him in a high storm!

Who else has Odium so overtly appeared to?

When did Odium appear to him? If you mean what's been called stormstriders, the large figures walking in a highstorm, I don't believe they've been confirmed as Odium.

 

@Toaster Retribution IIRC there's a WoB implying Dalinar won't die in Oathbringer.

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2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

She could be the redeemer though, if she finds an ancient script or something that tells of their actions.

I agree, but she could just as easily be the destroyer. You're not going to destroy the aimians by stabbing all the cremlings, (Oathbringer excerpt spoiler)

Spoiler

I think that whatever the secret they are hiding on Akinah is, it must be pretty dangerous.

And right now Shallan is the most likely to come across some long lost information.

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19 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

I agree, but she could just as easily be the destroyer. You're not going to destroy the aimians by stabbing all the cremlings, (Oathbringer excerpt spoiler)

  Reveal hidden contents

I think that whatever the secret they are hiding on Akinah is, it must be pretty dangerous.

And right now Shallan is the most likely to come across some long lost information.

True. It might be that the secret is what destroys the aimians, and Shallan learning of it ends up with them all dead. Maybe she can be both redeemer and destroyer, if she finds out about the secret, which accidentally leads to their destruction, but also learns of the thing that redeems them.

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8 hours ago, Thanatos said:

Lord Maelstrom,

The Surgeon, Assasin, Liar and Warlord are quiet clear. 

The Redeemer and Destroyer are the unknowns, guess work. 

I think the obvious choice is Dalinar or Szeth as the redeemer and Kaladin as the Destroyer. As i think Kaladin will end up being Odiums champion, wheather he has a choice in the matter or not. 

But your right about Brandon being unpredictable.

My previous blurb was about who the Redeemer and Destroyer are. Who the 4 are (Kaladin, Shallan, Dalianr and Szeth) I completely agree with.

My post was about saying that guessing who is who is going to become a situation that could get very loopy, as Brandon has been consistently taking the least expected choice, which means that he has become predictable, and he might change that. Or he might not. So, much like the Sicilian in Princess Bride, we can't really figure out which cup is poisoned. I seriously hope Brandon finds a way to have both cups be poisoned though. :) (IE, any guess on our part is wrong).

As for Dalinar dying, I doubt it. Because of the guesswork around the Destroyer/Redeemer, I don't see Brandon killing any of the 4 until that prophesy is fulfilled. Unless he kills Dalinar off, only to later show that things Dalinar had set in motion in the past made him the Redeemer or Destroyer. That could be cool. Point is, we won't be able to rule out one of the 4 via death.

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7 hours ago, Thanatos said:

Kaladin not only has hatred and disgust in his personality, Odium himself 'appeared' to him in a high storm!

Who else has Odium so overtly appeared to?

Odium is trapped on Braize. I'm not sure when you think we saw Odium, but we haven't "seen" him in book yet. 

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In that darkness, an enormous face appeared just in front of his. A face of blackness, yet faintly traced in the dark. It was wide, the breadth of a massive thunderhead, and extended far to either side, yet it was somehow still visible to Kaladin. Inhuman. Smiling.Kaladin felt a deep chill—a rolling prickle of ice—scurry down his spine and through his entire body.

Brandon has confirmed that this is Odium.

 

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8 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Brandon has confirmed that this is Odium.

 

I would like to see this WoB, because that isn't the only place that we see that. 

We also see that face speak to him in his dreams, and it's clearly the Stormfather. 

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