Three Questions on Uberspren

[Ammanas]

1. On Roshar there seems to be three spren that are in a league of their own and the only of their kind. They are Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and Cusicesh the Protector. Are there any others?

2. I feel that there is something we don't know about Cusicesh. Any theories? We know Stormfather...well, makes storms and also gives visions. Nightwatcher is basically Roshars version of the wish granting monkeys paw (for reference see short story The Monkey's paw by W.W. Jacobs)

3. So Stormfather is a Cognitive shadow of Honor I think. Does that mean he died and his ghost and attached himself to a powerful Spren and became Stormfather? Is that right?

[Fezzik]

I doubt cusicesh is in the same league as nightwatcher and stormfather as they are spren of cultivation and honor. The stormfather predates honor's death, but after honor died, his cognitive shadow merged with the stormfather.

[Calderis he/him]

Cusicesh is a level below the other two 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1120#44

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QUESTION

Talking about the Stormfather, are the Nightwatcher and the giant water spren, Cusicesh, are they on the same level?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Nightwatcher, yes. Um...uh...there are...I would say, a level below the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher who are also a much bigger deal than something like one of the sapient spren, and that’s what Cusicesh is.`

There are WoBs equating The Nightwatcher's relationship to Cultivation to that of the Stormfather and Honor, but I don't think we have confirmation that she's a Bondsmith spren. There are at least 3 spren at that level because of the 3 bondsmith limit, but if that's actually a hard limit on the number of spren, or just the only spren of that magnitude willing to bond... I don't know. 

[Storming Radiant he/him]

17 hours ago, Calderis said:

There are at least 3 spren at that level because of the 3 bondsmith limit, but if that's actually a hard limit on the number of spren, or just the only spren of that magnitude willing to bond... I don't know. 

If there are only three of these spren and only they can turn a man into a Bondsmith, doesn't this mean that the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher were bound to Bondsmiths at some point? If so, why was the Stormfather so reluctant to bond with Dalinar?

[Calderis he/him]

5 minutes ago, Storming Radiant said:

If there are only three of these spren and only they can turn a man into a Bondsmith, doesn't this mean that the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher were bound to Bondsmiths at some point? If so, why was the Stormfather so reluctant to bond with Dalinar?

This is just my opinion, but it kinda looks like, despite being bound to fulfill his duty with the visions, and responding to the words, the Stormfather has kind of lost it. He was so sure that Dalinar was doomed he sent a new highstorm mid weeping to wash away their corpses.

I don't know if it's because of merging with Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow, or something else but he seems to just want the cycle to end. He forbade Syl from coming and she disobeyed, which considering her nature means she had to know staying behind was wrong.

I don't know the reason why... But the Stormfather seems to be broken.

Edit: and the Stormfather is the only confirmed bondsmith spren as far as I know. The Nightwatcher is of the same level according to WoBs, so it makes sense that she could be a Bondsmith spren, but we don't know that she is one that has, or how many there are. Only that historically three has been the maximum number of Bondsmiths. 

Edited June 24, 2017 by Calderis

[Storming Radiant he/him]

13 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Edit: and the Stormfather is the only confirmed bondsmith spren as far as I know. The Nightwatcher is of the same level according to WoBs, so it makes sense that she could be a Bondsmith spren, but we don't know that she is one that has, or how many there are. Only that historically three has been the maximum number of Bondsmiths. 

lf this is true, and there are three god-spren that create Bondsmiths, kinda makes you wonder where a third one will pop up, seeing as the Nightwatcher and Stormfather are pretty well known. There is also the question of who t will come from, because though they're each from a Shard, the Stormfather from Honor and Nightwatcher from Cultivation, I don't find it likely that the third will be from Odium...

Edited June 24, 2017 by Storming Radiant

[Calderis he/him]

11 minutes ago, Storming Radiant said:

lf this is true, and there are three god-spren that create Bondsmiths, kinda makes you wonder where a third one will pop up, seeing as the Nightwatcher and Stormfather are pretty well known. There is also the question of who t will come from, because though they're each from a Shard, the Stormfather from Honor and Nightwatcher from Cultivation, I don't find it likely that the third will be from Odium...

I doubt the Odium connection too, that's why I continue to point out that we don't know that the number of Spren of that magnitude are limited to three, and that we have no confirmation on the Nightwatcher as a Bondsmith spren, just that she's the same "level" of spren as the Stormfather. 

[Spoolofwhool]

Honestly, I don't think the connection to a shard a part of the Bondsmith spren. The reason I think this is because the connection between the Stormfather and Honor is because the Stormfather merged with Tanavast's cognitive shadow, but you have to realize that the Stormfather was bonding people before that, before Honor was killed. Therefore, originally, that connection didn't exist, and I personally doubt that the Stormfather had a significant connection to Honor previously, any more than most ancient spren.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

If Nightwatcher and Cultivation are connected in a similar way as Honor and Tanavast, wouldnt that mean that Nightwatcher has merged with Cultivations cognitive shadow? And wouldnt that mean that Cultivation is dead?

Also, how much of Stormfather is actually Stormfather? And how much is Tanavast? Like, does Tanavast still have a conciousness, and an ability to affect the world?

Also, about Bondsmith-spren, maybe Cusicesh can be one? We dont know exactly what it is that places Nightwatcher and Stormfather a level above him, but I guess it is the connections to shards. As @Spoolofwhool said, Stormfather has been bonded before merging with Tanavast, so it might be that the required sprenlevel for being a Bondsmith  spren is the one that Cusicesh is on, and Stormfather and Nightwatcher just got leveled up. This would make Nightwatcher, Stormfather and Cusicesh eligible for bonding Bondsmiths.

[Calderis he/him]

We have confirmation that Cultivation is alive. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1182#67

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QUESTION

Did Ambition fight back?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

QUESTION

And...Was Cultivation close enough to when Odium got [Splintered] Honor, to know how to fight back? Brandon: Heheheheh. I would say yes.

QUESTION

And Cultivation, is she--

BRANDON SANDERSON

She is still there. Alive and kicking.

QUESTION

And she can probably know how to not turn her back to the--

BRANDON SANDERSON

Well, maybe. She has learned from the experiences of others.

TAGS

 

[Lightspine]

What if Cusicesh has something to do with the Windrunner order? He's called "the protector" and is blue colored, which are both some very interesting ties. Could the faces he flashes be former Windrunners? Maybe there are similar spren for other orders of the Radiants? This seems like a stretch though.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 6/24/2017 at 3:09 PM, Storming Radiant said:

If so, why was the Stormfather so reluctant to bond with Dalinar?

When Pattern talked about the Recreance, he included the Stormfather as a Spren that suffered a broken bond.

We've speculated that this is why he flat-out refused to be a Shardblade, and we've also considered the possibility that he only "survived" the Recreance because Honor's cognitive shadow merged with him.

Having been a witness of the Recreance, both as whatever survived of the original Stormfather and as Tanavast, I think he's earned the right to be a little cynical/reluctant about trying again.

[Ammanas]

It seems that that everytime I see @The One Who Connects and @Pagerunner post something I gain more Cosmere wisdom. I never knew that about Stormfather. Great Stuff!

[Stormrunner1730]

On 6/24/2017 at 8:01 PM, Toaster Retribution said:

If Nightwatcher and Cultivation are connected in a similar way as Honor and Tanavast, wouldnt that mean that Nightwatcher has merged with Cultivations cognitive shadow? And wouldnt that mean that Cultivation is dead?

Also, how much of Stormfather is actually Stormfather? And how much is Tanavast? Like, does Tanavast still have a conciousness, and an ability to affect the world?

Also, about Bondsmith-spren, maybe Cusicesh can be one? We dont know exactly what it is that places Nightwatcher and Stormfather a level above him, but I guess it is the connections to shards. As @Spoolofwhool said, Stormfather has been bonded before merging with Tanavast, so it might be that the required sprenlevel for being a Bondsmith  spren is the one that Cusicesh is on, and Stormfather and Nightwatcher just got leveled up. This would make Nightwatcher, Stormfather and Cusicesh eligible for bonding Bondsmiths.

Wouldn't the Nightwatcher need to be directly connected to Cultivation's host somehow in order for the relationship to be the same as the Stormfather and Tanavast?  Also, is it confirmed that there is a particular type of spren of Bondsmiths, or did they just happen to bond the most powerful spren in the past?

[knightedbishop he/him]

It’s unclear (and maybe someone can clarify) the relationship between the Stormfather and Honor (the Shard). Highstorms predate Honor’s arrival on Roshial. There were some Spren around before Honor arrived. Bits of Investiture left by Adonalsium that gained sentience. Syl identified the Stormfather as her father. 

Spren are manifestations..sentient beings that represent natural processes (flamespren, starspren, windspren) or feelings (awespren, painspren). Perceptions (of themselves and others) affects Spren. Highstorms are a dominating facet of existence on Roshial. Makes me think Stormfather was one of the first Spren to gain sentience, and has significant power on his own. There’s some connection between windspren and Honorspren, according to Syl. 

Maybe when Honor arrived, he sunk his own Investiture into the highstorms, further empowering the Stormfather and creating a symbiosis between them. As one of the oldest and strongest Spren, and one strongly connected to his Investiture, seems logical that Honor would turn to the Stormfather as he died, giving him the visions to pass on. Since much of the world sees the Stormfather as a manifestation of the Almighty, seems logical that belief would reinforce/buttress the Stormfather’s power and identity. Because people believe he is the Almighty, he becomes the Almighty, as much as is possible. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

24 minutes ago, Stormrunner1730 said:

Wouldn't the Nightwatcher need to be directly connected to Cultivation's host somehow in order for the relationship to be the same as the Stormfather and Tanavast?  Also, is it confirmed that there is a particular type of spren of Bondsmiths, or did they just happen to bond the most powerful spren in the past?

First question: since we don't know how the merge between Honor and Stormfather works, it is hard to say. My answer would be that yes, there needs to be a connection. Stormfather and Honor were probably connected to eachother in some way (my guess is that it has to do with Honors perpendicularity). 

There are WoBs that Cultivation and Nightwatcher have a relationship similar to the one between Honor and Stormfather, so connection shouldn't be an issue.

As for question two, no idea. 

[Yata he/him]

On 26/6/2017 at 10:07 PM, The One Who Connects said:

When Pattern talked about the Recreance, he included the Stormfather as a Spren that suffered a broken bond.

We've speculated that this is why he flat-out refused to be a Shardblade, and we've also considered the possibility that he only "survived" the Recreance because Honor's cognitive shadow merged with him.

Having been a witness of the Recreance, both as whatever survived of the original Stormfather and as Tanavast, I think he's earned the right to be a little cynical/reluctant about trying again.

The Bondsmiths had never Shards. It's not only a SF's policy (by WoB).

By the way, I believe too that Tanavast helped into SF's recovered. I Just wanted to know how the Highstorms were affected during SF's bad times

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

I'm of the impression the Bondsmith that bonded the stormfather merely died so the bond dissipated naturally. The link between the Nitghtwatcher and Cultivation is probably this: she either created the NW from scratch and gave her a fair amount of investiture, or sufficiently imbued her with investiture in her prior form, thereby making her a Cultivation spren.

Side note, it seems the Nightwatcher and Stormfather were based on the pagan concepts of Earthmother and Skyfather deities, which i've only just realised

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 9/22/2017 at 1:02 AM, Yata said:

The Bondsmiths had never Shards. It's not only a SF's policy (by WoB)

I'm fairly sure I made that post before we got that Bondsmith WoB, but it's no big deal.

Now we get to speculate why they never had blades. (And get nowhere until we get a WoB, because that's how it works around here)

[Killik he/him]

On 6/23/2017 at 10:18 PM, Calderis said:

.... There are at least 3 spren at that level because of the 3 bondsmith limit, but if that's actually a hard limit on the number of spren, or just the only spren of that magnitude willing to bond... I don't know. 

Has it ever been confirm by Brandon that there are multiple Bondsmith spren, or can a superspren like the Stormfather bond multiple Bondsmiths?

Also:

“But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious. ”

—Words of Radiance, chapter 16, page 14^[3]

 

This is the only reference I know of to the "3 Bondsmith" limit.  (Maybe there is a WoB?).  Doesn't "nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds" sound like 3 is not a hard cap, its just where they agreed to stop growing the order?

Edited September 28, 2017 by Killik

[Calderis he/him]

@Killik it has.

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Ghodicu

The pocket companion states that there are three spren that can bond a person to make them into a bondsmith, the Stormfather being one of them. As far as I recall the books implied that the number was low, and implied heavily that it was around that number in an epigraph, but didn't actually have a straight confirmation. So, should I take that as canon?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you can take that as canon. They came to me for that information.

yahasgaruna

Sweet. I guess it hasn't been canonized which three spren these are? I seem to recall that the prevailing theory on 17th Shard was that Nightwatcher was one of them, and the third was that weird spren with too many faces that Axies the Collector looked at in the tWoK interlude.

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Until that WoB I was with you. I still don't like the inconsistancy of one order bonding multiple spren types. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Calderis