Do the Hearlds bond with spren??

[DustBringer94 he/him]

So recently I've been rereading the first two Stormlight Archive books in anticipation of Oathbringer. I've also been spending a lot of time on here at work reading others discussions about the Cosmere and The Oathpact. i've just been wondering if Honorblades are dead in the same sense that the normal shardblades are?

[CaptainRyan he/him]

1 hour ago, DustBringer94 said:

So recently I've been rereading the first two Stormlight Archive books in anticipation of Oathbringer. I've also been spending a lot of time on here at work reading others discussions about the Cosmere and The Oathpact. i've just been wondering if Honorblades are dead in the same sense that the normal shardblades are?

Hi @DustBringer94! Welcome to the Forums! Always great to have another Sanderfan join us. Good question! I will address it below within spoilers tags as this post is, currently, not in a spoiler free subforum.

Response to the question about spren blades:

Spoiler

As far as I know, Honorblades have been confirmed to not be spren. Syl even speaks of this at the end of Words of Radiance - she tells Kaladin that the weapon he holds (the Windrunner Honorblade) allows someone to use the same surges as Windrunners without the checks a spren requires. This makes the Honorblades very dangerous indeed.

 

Also, just an fyi as you seem to be new to the forums, this kind of post would be better placed in the "Stormlight Archive" subforum. I am sure a moderator will be able to move it to the appropriate area. Perhaps @WeiryWriter can do that?

[The Sovereign]

I addition to what @CaptainRyan said, there is something off. At the moment we don't know if the asterik that Brandon references is with the Honorblades, the Heralds, The Honor Pact, or some combination of any or all of them, personally I suspect it has more to do with the Heralds and the Honor Pact than the blade itself;

Quote

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 29th, 2016

Old Firehouse Books-AU tour (Paraphrased)

QUESTION

Is Nalan using his original Honorblade, or did he bond a spren?

BRANDON SANDERSON

He's using his original Honorblade. But there's an asterisk here that will come up in Oathbringer.

TAGS

nale, honorblade,

 

 

Edited May 24, 2017 by The Sovereign

[DustBringer94 he/him]

23 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

so @CaptainRyan that would mean that although they lead the KR they didn't actually have a Nahel Bond? i guess what im asking is that a KR gains surgebinding through a spren but a herald gets it from their honorblade? i would think that it would be the other way around. that the original users of surgebinding would have bonded very powerful spren. I find myself wondering if the Honorblades have more to do with the Oathpact and that's why they're different.

 

 

[DustBringer94 he/him]

and as for the moving to the Stormlight forum thing @CaptainRyan i would do it but im new to the whole forum thing in general and have no idea how to do that. I apologize

Edited May 23, 2017 by DustBringer94
typo

[Calderis he/him]

@DustBringer94 it has been confirmed (as far as I'm aware) that the Honorblades were given to the Heralds by Honor. The Spren later copied what honor had made and so granted surgebinding to men, and the Knights Radiant were formed to create and enforce structure onto them. 

The Honorblades were connected to Honor and allowed the Heralds to draw investiture directly from the shard, so they had no need of Stormlight. Since Honor has been shattered, the direct link is gone, and the means for them to channel investiture with it. This is why Honorblades consume Stormlight so much faster than spren. They were never designed for a limited fuel source. 

Edited May 23, 2017 by Calderis

[CaptainRyan he/him]

23 minutes ago, DustBringer94 said:

so @CaptainRyan that would mean that although they lead the KR they didn't actually have a Nahel Bond? i guess what im asking is that a KR gains surgebinding through a spren but a herald gets it from their honorblade? i would think that it would be the other way around. that the original users of surgebinding would have bonded very powerful spren. I find myself wondering if the Honorblades have more to do with the Oathpact and that's why they're different.

Hey @DustBringer94, no worries about the location of your post. It has already been moved by a moderator. Generally, they are very good about that sort of thing.

As to your statement about Heralds being probably being bonded to powerful spren initially, I think @Calderis covered that quite well. I hope that helps clear things up!

[DustBringer94 he/him]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@DustBringer94 it has been confirmed (as far as I'm aware) that the Honorblades were given to the Heralds by Honor. The Spren later copied what honor had made and so granted surgebinding to mean, and the Knights Radiant were formed to create and enforce structure onto them. 

The Honorblades were connected to Honor and allowed the Heralds to draw investiture directly from the shard, so they had no need of Stormlight. Since Honor has been shattered, the direct link is gone, and the means for them to channel investiture with it. This is why Honorblades consume Stormlight so much faster than spren. They were never designed for a limited fuel source. 

that makes a lot of sense. so because they drew their investiture from honor himself would that have made them slivers? and if its just the blades then were the heralds originally just "humans" or were they created to wield the Honorblades and therefor were given their immortality for being a sliver themselves? and while on that topic of their immortality why is it that Odium wasn't able to shatter/destroy them? something Tanavast said to Dalinar during a vision about Odium being bound to some of the same rules as he and that he would need to choose a champion and that this was how they could "get him" so to speak. im just a little confused here on why Odium couldn't or wouldn't destroy them

[Calderis he/him]

1 minute ago, DustBringer94 said:

that makes a lot of sense. so because they drew their investiture from honor himself would that have made them slivers? and if its just the blades then were the heralds originally just "humans" or were they created to wield the Honorblades and therefor were given their immortality for being a sliver themselves? and while on that topic of their immortality why is it that Odium wasn't able to shatter/destroy them? something Tanavast said to Dalinar during a vision about Odium being bound to some of the same rules as he and that he would need to choose a champion and that this was how they could "get him" so to speak. im just a little confused here on why Odium couldn't or wouldn't destroy them

I think the blades would count as splinters, just like spren.

We don't know much about the Heralds, but they were human prior to receiving the blades. 

And for the rest... I'll leave that to those more knowledgeable than me. 

[+Extesian he/him]

I think the key here is that, by Rosharan definitions, a spren is investiture that has gained sentience. The Honorblades may be pure Investiture in physical form or may just be a conduit for the direct transfer of Honor's investiture (like metal), I don't think we know but I suspect they're the latter. There's no reason to think that Honorblades are sentient so they're not spren.

And a Sliver incidentally is someone who has taken up a Shard and released the power, so nah the Heralds aren't Slivers. They're Cognitive Shadows, a soul filled with Investiture and stapled to a physical body (to briefly define them).

[DustBringer94 he/him]

39 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I think the key here is that, by Rosharan definitions, a spren is investiture that has gained sentience. The Honorblades may be pure Investiture in physical form or may just be a conduit for the direct transfer of Honor's investiture (like metal), I don't think we know but I suspect they're the latter. There's no reason to think that Honorblades are sentient so they're not spren.

And a Sliver incidentally is someone who has taken up a Shard and released the power, so nah the Heralds aren't Slivers. They're Cognitive Shadows, a soul filled with Investiture and stapled to a physical body (to briefly define them).

thank you @Extesian this was really helpful!

[Yata he/him]

3 hours ago, Extesian said:

 

And a Sliver incidentally is someone who has taken up a Shard and released the power, so nah the Heralds aren't Slivers. They're Cognitive Shadows, a soul filled with Investiture and stapled to a physical body (to briefly define them).

Actually that is only a way to become a Sliver (the only sure One). In theory every huge amount of Investiture could turn you into a Sliver. So It's possible the Honorblades' use over time turn the Heralds into Honor's Slivers.

It could be also part of the reason they becomed Cognitive Shadows (by Honor's design). As a Dead Sliver could always remain in the Realms as Cognitive Shadow

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 minute ago, Yata said:

So It's possible the Honorblades' use over time turn the Heralds into Honor's Slivers.

Brandon has said that they aren't slivers.

Quote

eri pl ()

Is Jezrien a Sliver?

Brandon Sanderson

Jezrien is one of the Heralds, but has never held the power of an entire Shard himself. (So no, not a Sliver.)

[retrorocket1]

This thread made me think of something, Maybe the heralds are bonded to honor himself and that is what the Oathpact is all about. Then when the oathpact was broken, I am guessing when taln returned which may have happened before the end of way of kings, Honordied in the same way that a spren dies.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

49 minutes ago, retrorocket1 said:

This thread made me think of something, Maybe the heralds are bonded to honor himself and that is what the Oathpact is all about. Then when the Oathpact was broken, I am guessing when Taln returned which may have happened before the end of way of kings, Honor died in the same way that a Spren dies.

I'm heading to bed, so I'll grab sources tomorrow, but:

• Honor was still alive when the 9 Heralds abandoned the Oathpact
• Honor died far before Taln returned(somewhere around the time of the Recreance)
• The Oathpact isn't broken yet, as Taln is still a participant

Edit: I'll grant that Honorblades being something like condensed Honor and the Heralds being able to draw Investiture directly from him implies some sort of greater connection though, so props for that.

Edited May 25, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[iamstick]

I'll be very amused if "Oathbringer"'s name is relevant and tied to the Oathpact. I'll be doubly amused if it turns out to have been an honorblade all along. (Do honorblades look different from shardblades?)

[Weltall]

@iamstick They're described as such in Kalak's thoughts in the Prologue but the fact that nobody picks up on Szeth and Taln's Blades being visually different in a significant way other than the sense of 'I've never seen that particular Blade before' suggests that they aren't so radically different that one could tell at a glance. At least not right now, maybe in the past it would  have been more obvious.

And Oathbringer can't be an Honorblade because all ten are accounted for. The Stone Shamans had eight of the things (one of which they gave Szeth and it's now in Urithiru), Nale went back for his at some point and Taln's was unavailable due to him being Odium's guest on Braize for the past 4500 years.