Worse than Odium

[HonorIsDead he/him]

First, I want to preface that this theory is not really based off facts.

I was reading a post about Threnody and the "evil" when I came across I guy who said that he thought that the "evil" wasn't anything to do with Odium. He stated that he thought it was something more then a shard. This was a post from 2015 so they probably didn't know about the shard splintered in the Threnodite system. This however got me thinking, why do we assume Odium is the worst shard in the cosmere? Could there not be something more? If you think about Odium the emotion (hatred) it is incredibly powerful, but power isn't everything, subtlety and manipulation could be a far more powerful combination. Might there be a shard in the Cosmere that may not only be more powerful than Odium, but also wiser? I looked up a list of traits, and there was one that could be worse than Odium if it were to become its own shard: Evil. There are various words that could describe this attribute: evil, wicked, cruel.

This shard would be more dangerous to the cosmere than Odium because Odium is often not well thought out, it exist with blurred vision and little fact, always pointing out what it wants to see in the world. On the other hand Cruelty is not hindered by the same tunnel vision, it is often very keen and logical, making precise and well thought out decisions, manipulating people and lacking compassion.  Could this not be a shard? and would it not  be worse than Odium.

It could be behind the scenes at all times, pushing here and pulling there, getting Odium to do its work at the moment, but still being the puppet master.

Thinking about it, it does seem reasonable that Odium wouldn't be the most harmful shard, the plot needs to twist a little and a more destructive force that has been waiting in the shadows would make sense.  

What do you guys think? Might Cruelty be another more harmful shard? If humans developed a cruel side, so must have Adonalsium, and Cruelty isn't really the same as hatred

[Mestiv he/him]

Shard of Cruelty... anyone living on a planet where this shard is must be soo happy

[Darkness he/him]

Just off the top of my head, odium is meant to represent "God's divine wrath". It is in its original form a wholesome and contributing attribute to deity. However, I have trouble twisting something like cruelty or evil into a facet of what I see as adonalsium's original intent and composition; being generally beneficent, with this overall intent of 'creating and presiding' (my own words). Also, from what we've heard so far, rayse has imparted his craftiness to odium, which implies that he is not quite so blind as something like 'rage' might be.

[Spoolofwhool]

I feel like if there were a shard with a more dangerous potential then Odium would've put it higher on his list. Since Ambition is the highest, and Devotion and Dominion second highest, then this theoretical shard wouldn't be that altogether dangerous in Odium's opinion since it didn't figure that high on his list. 

[HonorIsDead he/him]

@Darkness wrath and cruelty aren't really the same thing, they're similar, but I wouldn't say they are so similar they would necessarily be the same shard

 

@Spoolofwhool If the shard were manipulative and subtle he probably wouldn't have been high on Odium's list as he's not actually powerful, or he could be manipulated to think that leaving cruelty was for the best

[Weltall]

Given that the Vessels knew one another before they ascended, I'm fairly certain that anyone Rayse considered personally dangerous would be very high up on his hit list, especially since he himself was noted to have been a crafty man by Hoid prior to taking up Odium. Bear in mind that while Honor may have been fourth on his list, by necessary implication Cultivation was fifth and she seems to be all about careful planning, so Rayse gets to kill two birds with one stone when he moves on Roshar. The Stormfather also calls Odium 'the most dangerous of the sixteen'. Lastly, factor in that Hoid (who was also personally acquainted with all the Vessels) clearly sees Odium as the biggest threat right now and that Frost appears to agree with the sentiment and while it's an interesting idea, I think it's reasonable to assume that unless we're explicitly told otherwise we can say that there isn't anything more dangerous to the cosmere as a whole at this time than Odium.

[EdgedancerDan]

Just throwing this out there but didn't Brandon confirm that there is something that was as old as Adonalsium that essentially worked in opposition to Adonalsium? If I remember correctly Brandon hasn't stated what it is, but it isn't a shard and it has created some kind of ultimate weapon. "At the time of the Shattering, Adonalsium was consciously opposed by something, and that thing is still around.^[8] It created some form of weapon.^[9] " That quote is from the Coppermind. I believe that this can be interpreted to be something more evil than Odium.

[+Extesian he/him]

I agree with Weltall on this. That said I feel Autonomy will end up being the biggest menace, because of the Vessel's strength and cunningness and the flexibility the Shard gives (at least more flexibility than pure hate is).

[The One Who Connects he/him]

14 minutes ago, EdgedancerDan said:

Just throwing this out there but didn't Brandon confirm that there is something that was as old as Adonalsium that essentially worked in opposition to Adonalsium? If I remember correctly Brandon hasn't stated what it is, but it isn't a shard and it has created some kind of ultimate weapon. "At the time of the Shattering, Adonalsium was consciously opposed by something, and that thing is still around.^[8] It created some form of weapon.^[9] " That quote is from the Coppermind. I believe that this can be interpreted to be something more evil than Odium.

As someone will inevitably point out, Brandon has since stated once and for all that Adonalsium's opposition was the Original 16 Vessels. (They weren't shards at the time, several of them are still around, this weapon is an unknown, but Odium knows about it)

[EdgedancerDan]

3 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

As someone will inevitably point out, Brandon has since stated once and for all that Adonalsium's opposition was the Original 16 Vessels. (They weren't shards at the time, several of them are still around, this weapon is an unknown, but Odium knows about it)

Thanks. That was a WoB that I didn't know about. Cool though. Is it safe to assume the weapon was involved in the Shattering then?

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Just now, EdgedancerDan said:

Thanks. That was a WoB that I didn't know about. Cool though. Is it safe to assume the weapon was involved in the Shattering then?

Up for debate. All we know is that the 16 made a weapon, it still exists, and Odium knows about it. RAFO on if he has it/has used it/knows where it is, etc..

I don't think we've even asked Brandon what is does yet.

[Darkness he/him]

4 hours ago, HonorIsDead said:

@Darkness wrath and cruelty aren't really the same thing, they're similar, but I wouldn't say they are so similar they would necessarily be the same shard

 

@Spoolofwhool If the shard were manipulative and subtle he probably wouldn't have been high on Odium's list as he's not actually powerful, or he could be manipulated to think that leaving cruelty was for the best

That's... Not what I was saying. I'll say it in different words: Odium is God's divine wrath, without moderating context. A 'different shard', like the one you were suggesting might be worse than Odium, under the intent Evil or Cruelty, just doesn't jibe well as a facet in the overall personality of Adonalsium as I see it. Wrath/Odium has a place, Evil/Cruelty does not.

That's all I was suggesting

[Stark he/him]

I've had a pervasive fear for a short while now that Rayse will be defeated and drop the Odium Shard on his death.  Then, to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands and restarting the cycle, Cultivation takes it up (she has enough hatred from Tanavast's death probably) to create a new shard like Harmony, but rather than a force of good, she ends up as a Cosmere style dark Galadrial with the intent of Cultivating or Fostering Hatred.

 

This, to me, would be far worse than just Odium on its own, and absolutely terrifying.

 

I think Brandon gave a WOB at the Seattle signing this year that that would be something Cultivation would try to avoid, but I was not there and have not yet seen the transcript, so I cannot confirm.

[Spoolofwhool]

@StarkA thing to keep in mind though is that Odium's current agenda of destroying the other shards is largely due to Rayse's selfish nature combined with his interpretation of Odium. Another person could take Odium and not have the same desire to murder the other shards. Therefore, it's not a definite fear that the cycle will continue if someone else takes Odium. 

[Kered he/him]

I've always thought that Odium wasn't going to be the final baddie. We have to much time left in the cosmere for him to remain with the "final boss" crown. In my opinion, the worse-case scenario is Autonomy and Odium combining. Or a far fetched idea is a three-way combo with Autonomy/Odium and a Shard we haven't seen.  

[Quiver he/him]

2 hours ago, Kered said:

I've always thought that Odium wasn't going to be the final baddie. We have to much time left in the cosmere for him to remain with the "final boss" crown. In my opinion, the worse-case scenario is Autonomy and Odium combining. Or a far fetched idea is a three-way combo with Autonomy/Odium and a Shard we haven't seen.  

Odium's status as potential end boss IS rather odd, considering his significance in the Stormlight Archive.

We know there is going to be more Cosmere after Stormlight Archive. If Odium is the Big Bad of the overarching 'verse, that should imply that he'll survive Roshar... except he's been set up the big bad of the Rosharan series. He splintered Honor, he's corrupted the inhabitants of that world, he's (presumably) been gunning for Cultivation...

For that series to end with him saying "Eh, guess those plans failed, I'm outta here, LATER GUYS" seems... odd to me? Inconclusive. So I have to imagine that there is a bigger bad beyond Odium, at least on the wider scale.
(My speculation would be Autonomy, maybe? But we don't know enough yet.)

[iamstick]

Odium + Dominion?

[Borio Singaldi he/him]

46 minutes ago, iamstick said:

Odium + Dominion?

That sounds like something that would really screw the whole cosmere if a combo of those two existed. Too bad one of them killed the other one, though.

Possible wasted opportunity...?

[Kered he/him]

3 hours ago, Quiver said:

Odium's status as potential end boss IS rather odd, considering his significance in the Stormlight Archive.

We know there is going to be more Cosmere after Stormlight Archive. If Odium is the Big Bad of the overarching 'verse, that should imply that he'll survive Roshar... except he's been set up the big bad of the Rosharan series. He splintered Honor, he's corrupted the inhabitants of that world, he's (presumably) been gunning for Cultivation...

For that series to end with him saying "Eh, guess those plans failed, I'm outta here, LATER GUYS" seems... odd to me? Inconclusive. So I have to imagine that there is a bigger bad beyond Odium, at least on the wider scale.
(My speculation would be Autonomy, maybe? But we don't know enough yet.)

The raw tenaciousness of Odium coupled with Autonomy's covert intelligence and skill in manipulation? To me, that's terrifying haha.

3 hours ago, iamstick said:

Odium + Dominion?

If we're going with combinations of already splintered Shards, I think Odium and Ambition would be super bad. As that Shard was first on Odium's list.  

[Darkness he/him]

the problem with odium + anything is that Rayse actively avoids taking any foreign investiture into himself. He hates other investitures too much. Perhaps if Rayse were killed, then someone else would be ok with combining, but for now it simply isn't going to work.

I feel like the fainlife (after it undergoes some massive alterations) is going to be the big bad, with an eventual return to Yolen to combat it at the source. The thing I love most about Brandon, is that he makes a habit of delving into the 'now what?' Question. Like in Mistborn. Plot resolved, ok now what? He can do that with odium, with fainlife, with Adonalsium in the beginning, with anything

[Kered he/him]

1 hour ago, Darkness said:

the problem with odium + anything is that Rayse actively avoids taking any foreign investiture into himself. He hates other investitures too much. Perhaps if Rayse were killed, then someone else would be ok with combining, but for now it simply isn't going to work.

I feel like the fainlife (after it undergoes some massive alterations) is going to be the big bad, with an eventual return to Yolen to combat it at the source. The thing I love most about Brandon, is that he makes a habit of delving into the 'now what?' Question. Like in Mistborn. Plot resolved, ok now what? He can do that with odium, with fainlife, with Adonalsium in the beginning, with anything

Again, this was his philosophy before Ruin and Preservation became Harmony. Plus he's been stuck in the Roshar system for a loooooong time. I think his whole not wanting to take in any foreign investiture policy is going to change. He needs to increase his power. From what we know, there is not many ways for a Shard to do this. Unless he somehow gets his hands on the weapon the 16 used. 

[Spoolofwhool]

40 minutes ago, Kered said:

Again, this was his philosophy before Ruin and Preservation became Harmony. Plus he's been stuck in the Roshar system for a loooooong time. I think his whole not wanting to take in any foreign investiture policy is going to change. He needs to increase his power. From what we know, there is not many ways for a Shard to do this. Unless he somehow gets his hands on the weapon the 16 used. 

Unlikely honestly. The selfishness of not wanting to change appears to be as much a part of his personality as the selfishness which is driving him to be the strongest in the Cosmere. People don't just concede on fundamental aspects of themselves, they keep pushing with what they currently have, not accepting change. Odium would hate to lose to anything else and for a supremely selfish person, relying on someone else's strength would the same as losing. 
In any case, he's proven that he's capable of fighting two shards at once. While Harmony may possess greater raw power, I would argue that fighting two shards working together would be easier. They would be more versatile in what they can do, unlike Harmony still trapped between opposing intents, one of which doesn't want to hurt people. Additionally, Odium has millennia of experience in fighting shards over Harmony.

[Kered he/him]

Just now, Spoolofwhool said:

Unlikely honestly. The selfishness of not wanting to change appears to be as much a part of his personality as the selfishness which is driving him to be the strongest in the Cosmere. People don't just concede on fundamental aspects of themselves, they keep pushing with what they currently have, not accepting change. Odium would hate to lose to anything else and for a supremely selfish person, relying on someone else's strength would the same as losing. 
In any case, he's proven that he's capable of fighting two shards at once. While Harmony may possess greater raw power, I would argue that fighting two shards working together would be easier. They would be more versatile in what they can do, unlike Harmony still trapped between opposing intents, one of which doesn't want to hurt people. Additionally, Odium has millennia of experience in fighting shards over Harmony.

I disagree. Strictly for the fact that Brandon has said, multiple times, that Odium is afraid of Harmony. He was not that afraid of going after two separate shards in the past. So obviously it's different than what Odiums done in the past, and what he can do might not be as effective on Harmony. The game has changed. And I would like to see any bad guy from any story, sit in the same place for 3,000+ years and not have their plans change. 

Harmony was the introduction to the idea that Shards can combine, we haven't seen the last of it. It's more than probable that Odium is going to sacrifice some of his ideology in order to complete his goals. 

[Yata he/him]

I see more likely that Odium would try to make Sazed self-destroy himself. Pushing unbalance in his Powers.

Notice that Odium could probably steal/obtain already some Honor's Investiture from Roshar and He (at least from the WoB) didn't try this...also if It would out himself in a Better position aganist Cultivation

[Kered he/him]

He hasn't tried it yet. The combination of Ruin and Preservation is a new thing. Something that Odium has not faced yet. I don't think he's going to throw all his chips on being able manipulate Sazed. He has to find a way to get more power, just in case his plans fall through. Evil like Odium doesn't settle on one plan. He has a focal plan, with others waiting in the wing. Like I've said before, I'm not saying a combo with Odium and another Shard is going to happen. I'm saying that unlike before, it's no longer out of the realm of possibility.