On the nature of cryptics

[retrorocket1]

So my younger sister made a comment on how cruel pattern was to shallan in this scene.

Quote

you need to tell me something true, it replied, The more true, the stronger our bond.

Jasnah is using a fake Soulcaster, Shallan thought. I'm sure that's a truth.

That's not enough, the voice whispered, I must know something true about you. Tell me. The stronger the truth, the more hidden it is, the more powerful the bond. Tell me. Tell me. What are you?

"What am I?" Shallan Whispered. "Truthfully?" It was a day for confrontation. She felt strangely strong, steady. Time to speak it. "I'm a murderer. I killed my father."

Ah, the voice whispered, A powerful truth indeed...

Now, in response to my sister i made up a theory on the spot.

The power that comes from the bond between the cryptic isn't so much about the truth as it is about revealing the lies and knowing herself. Jasnah is using a fake soulcaster didn't work not because it wasn't true but because she didn't deceive herself in thinking that it was a lie. kinda wondering what you all think.

also unrelated to the above quote but i find it interesting to compare pattern to syl.

Syl started by understanding the world and as her bond grew she understood abstract thought. Pattern started by understanding complex thought and as his bond grew he started to understand the world.

syl can only be seen when she wants to be seen. Pattern can be seen whether he wants to be or not.

Syl has a physical form. Pattern is a part of other objects physical form.

Syl claims to be a piece of a god. Pattern claims to be part of the pattern in nature.

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

To put it briefly, Cryptics are more of Cultivation than Honor, which explains the physical attributes and the references to nature. In addition, the order of Lightweavers have Shallash as their patron, and one of her associated attributes is honesty. Shallan's bond with Pattern strengthens as she becomes more honest with herself and admits the truth.

[Blightsong he/him]

3 minutes ago, Crucible of Shards said:

To put it briefly, Cryptics are more of Cultivation than Honor, which explains the physical attributes and the references to nature. In addition, the order of Lightweavers have Shallash as their patron, and one of her associated attributes is honesty. Shallan's bond with Pattern strengthens as she becomes more honest with herself and admits the truth.

Careful stating theory as fact, we dont know if Cryptics are more of Culvation or not (although it is likely).

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

I thought it was confirmed concerning the Surgebinding table? If not, I guess I really am jumping to conclusions based on hearsay

[kari-no-sugata]

4 hours ago, retrorocket1 said:

So my younger sister made a comment on how cruel pattern was to shallan in this scene.

That wasn't actually Pattern, it was another Cryptic. Almost certainly at least. I presume the other Cryptics around Shallan were there to help "reboot" her bond with Pattern. There's a line in WoR where Shallan thinks that the voice she heard previously probably wasn't Pattern's. I'm not sure if Brandon has ever confirmed this though.

 

4 hours ago, retrorocket1 said:

The power that comes from the bond between the cryptic isn't so much about the truth as it is about revealing the lies and knowing herself. Jasnah is using a fake soulcaster didn't work not because it wasn't true but because she didn't deceive herself in thinking that it was a lie. kinda wondering what you all think.

Yep, it's about connecting the cognitive mind of the person with the spren, rather than the general concept of truth.

I would guess that the underlying nature of the bond is the same for all Radiant types but the difference is in how they advance/progress. Brandon used to use the term "contract magic" a few years ago to describe the magic system. For most Radiants it's based on a direct series of Oaths. Essentially a promise to do something. Failure to do so can result in the bond weakening, as we saw with Kaladin in WoR. I would guess that each time someone "progresses" as a Radiant that the spren becomes more deeply embedded in the person's spiritweb. Rather than being a gradual thing, it seems like progression is much more of a step-change.

So, essentially you have Radiants making a commitment of some kind and they get a particular set of powers in return. The stronger the commitments the more power they get, up to a limit. The Lightweavers are a special case in that rather than following a set sequence of Oaths (conceptually at least, if not exactly the same word for word within each Order) they have a more open concept of avoiding self-deception (of not lying to yourself). What I find curious is what this would mean to someone who has the right stuff to be a Lightweaver (in terms of personality and being "broken" enough) but doesn't have any major self-deceptions - would they immediately go to full strength or would they be stuck at their minimum level? I suspect it's the latter. So if Shallan has nothing major left that she is deceiving herself about then she won't be able to progress any further, would be my guess. I would also guess that if she starts deceiving herself about something new then the bond would weaken.

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

I wonder how lightweaver would regress in their order then? Would they have to tell bad lies? Lie to themselves about hard truths perhaps? 

What constitutes a bad lie to a Cryptic anyway?

[Fulminato he/him]

“You like lies?” Shallan asked.
“Good lies,” Pattern said. “That lie. Good lie.”
“What makes a lie good?” Shallan asked, taking careful notes, recording Pattern’s exact words.
“True lies.”
“Pattern, those two are opposites.”
“Hmmmm . . . Light makes shadow. Truth makes lies. Hmmmm.” 

WoR Chapter 6. Terrible Dectrution

“Perhaps,” Pattern said. “Or you could progress. Become more. There is something more you must do.”
“Words?” Shallan said.
“You have said the Words,” Pattern said. “You said them long ago. No . . . it is not words that you lack. It is truth.”
“You prefer lies.”
“Mmm. Yes, and you are a lie. A powerful one. However, what you do is not just lie. It is truth and lie mixed. You must understand both.”

WoR Chapter 75 True Glory

 

[kari-no-sugata]

1 hour ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

I wonder how lightweaver would regress in their order then? Would they have to tell bad lies? Lie to themselves about hard truths perhaps? 

What constitutes a bad lie to a Cryptic anyway?

After Shallan killed her mother she completely shut away the memory (or at least as much as possible) which pretty much killed Pattern. That's quite an extreme case though.

I would say that Lightweavers basically have to be very honest with themselves. Lying to others isn't a problem but lying to yourself is. Fooling yourself is. Deceiving yourself is. etc. Refusing to admit your mistakes, denial of reality, running away from your feelings etc.

I'm not sure where exactly the dividing lines are. For example, I'm sure Shallan would fear the reaction from others if she told them everything - would getting over that fear and confessing everything be enough for her to progress? I have no idea. However, the less you want to admit something the more damaging it is it seems - but is there a difference between not wanting to admit something to others and not wanting to admit it to yourself? It could be argued that being open with others about such things would be the ultimate acceptance.

Depending upon the specifics, something like a love triangle could even be damaging to Shallan's bond... so long as it includes a degree of self-deception.

I would guess this also applies to hopes and aspirations as well. Desires too. I suspect Lightweavers might struggle with moderation (self-denial of enjoyment) for example since they wouldn't be able to pretend to themselves that they don't enjoy certain things. On the flip side, if they got addicted to something then refusing to admit that would weaken the bond. "Just one more won't hurt" would probably harm the bond too.

So long as Lightweavers face themselves honestly they can probably do whatever they like without it weakening the bond. That might sound "too simple" but doing that all the time for everything is hard and the more complex and difficult the circumstances you're in the harder it would be. The easiest person to fool is always yourself.

Edited May 4, 2017 by kari-no-sugata

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

@kari-no-sugata Lol the love triangle could kill pattern!? The DRAAAAAAMAAA!

[kari-no-sugata]

Well, certainly I've seen many love triangles where the person in the middle hides from their real feelings. If she was ever in such a situation, Shallan wouldn't be able to do that without it harming Pattern. It would apply just as much to any type of relationship as well of course - it's the act of being dishonest with yourself that would be damaging, not the nature of the problem.

[+Extesian he/him]

3 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

What I find curious is what this would mean to someone who has the right stuff to be a Lightweaver (in terms of personality and being "broken" enough) but doesn't have any major self-deceptions - would they immediately go to full strength or would they be stuck at their minimum level? I suspect it's the latter. So if Shallan has nothing major left that she is deceiving herself about then she won't be able to progress any further, would be my guess. I would also guess that if she starts deceiving herself about something new then the bond would weaken.

We do have an answer on this, about self-awareness. 

Quote

 

Malchin was stymied, for though he was inferior to none in the arts of war, he was not suitable for the Lightweavers; he wished for his oaths to be elementary and straightforward, and yet their spren were liberal, as to our comprehension, in definitions pertaining to this matter; the process included speaking truths as an approach to a threshold of self-awareness that Malchin could never attain. ”

—Words of Radiance, chapter 12, page 12^[7]

 

[Farnsworth]

Since Windrunners and Lightweavers are physically opposite on the picture of surges and orders, I imagine their Soren would be essentially the opposite. So, it makes sense that Syl's development track would be opposite from Pattern's.

[kari-no-sugata]

8 hours ago, Extesian said:

We do have an answer on this, about self-awareness.

Perhaps. I've debated with myself about that one. I wondered about what would happen to someone who bonded with a Cryptic who was already self-aware (having no internal lies would imply this) but that quote specifically has "a threshold of self-awareness that Malchin could never attain". So in this scenario, Malchin is far from being as self-aware as proper Lightweavers. So why is he stymied? Option 1 would be that although he has opportunities to grow as a Lightweaver, he isn't able to take them due his personality or strength of will or whatever. Option 2 would be what you suggest here, but that would strongly imply that there's a very big difference between everyday self-awareness and what Lightweavers become. Option 3 would be that he's not particularly self-aware and has a bunch of small internal lies about himself but those small lies are too small individually and admitting to those lies isn't enough for him to advance as a Lightweaver (this is under the assumption that speaking a few small Truths isn't equivalent to speaking one big Truth).

Option 2 is basically the "local maxima" problem - imagine you're trying to climb a mountain and you're part way up on an outcropping. The rest of the mountain looms above you but to get there first you have to climb down a bit. In the case of a spren bond it would likely dissipate in this scenario before you could start climbing up the mountain proper.

Regarding Option 3, in tWoK we saw Shallan speaking smaller Truths ("I'm afraid") and bigger ones and they both had an effect. But that wasn't with Pattern. So she's making a short-term bond with a second Cryptic, I believe. So it's not really about her advancing as a Lightweaver but resurrecting her bond with Pattern. My guess is that for a Lightweaver to advance it's not about the total amount of self-awareness gained but the single act of admitting to a deep hidden truth (it's all or nothing).

[+Extesian he/him]

I like the analysis @kari-no-sugata, but I think the key here is why cryptics bond a human in the first place. As with all of them they need a gap to fill in the spiritweb but cryptics seem to look for people who are broken but lying to themselves about it, but will only progressively bond someone gaining self-awareness in steps. In Shallan's case she was heavily psychologically damaged but has dealt with it by burying not just the emotions, but the memories as well. 

So a person who is self-aware and admit their problems to themselves will not attract a cryptic in the first place. People who lie to themselves but never gain the self-awareness and courage to deal with their trauma and admit the lies they tell to themselves will attract a cryptic but never bond them. You need someone who isn't self-aware, who lies to themselves but proceeds to self-awareness. 

It sounds like Malchin couldn't take the step of admitting the lies out loud. In your question about someone who is broken and has the right personality but is self-aware, that self-awareness already rules out it being the type of broken that interests them. They may be broken in other ways but their brokenness is not one of lying to themselves. Cryptics are attracted to people who are broken AND lie to themselves about it. 

And I agree with your last sentence entirely it's not about gaining self-awareness per se, it's about them being fascinated by big lies that people tell themselves, but the person needs to gain self-awareness to have the ability to admit a huge lie to themselves. 

Edited May 5, 2017 by Extesian

[kari-no-sugata]

4 hours ago, Extesian said:

I like the analysis @kari-no-sugata, but I think the key here is why cryptics bond a human in the first place. As with all of them they need a gap to fill in the spiritweb but cryptics seem to look for people who are broken but lying to themselves about it, but will only progressively bond someone gaining self-awareness in steps. In Shallan's case she was heavily psychologically damaged but has dealt with it by burying not just the emotions, but the memories as well. 

Glad you liked it

We don't know what Shallan was like when she originally bonded Pattern but he does say this:

Quote

 

“I know… little of humans,” Pattern said. “They break. Their minds break. You did not break. Only cracked.”

“It is the lies that save you,” Pattern said. “The lies that drew me.”

 

However, I'm not sure if this is the only way that spren (or Cryptics) find potential partners. It feels to me like things were a bit different before the Recreance and when Urithiru was active. Not completely different but I get the feeling that there were additional methods that were used.

 

4 hours ago, Extesian said:

So a person who is self-aware and admit their problems to themselves will not attract a cryptic in the first place. People who lie to themselves but never gain the self-awareness and courage to deal with their trauma and admit the lies they tell to themselves will attract a cryptic but never bond them. You need someone who isn't self-aware, who lies to themselves but proceeds to self-awareness. 

It sounds like Malchin couldn't take the step of admitting the lies out loud. In your question about someone who is broken and has the right personality but is self-aware, that self-awareness already rules out it being the type of broken that interests them. They may be broken in other ways but their brokenness is not one of lying to themselves. Cryptics are attracted to people who are broken AND lie to themselves about it. 

Just to be clear: in your previous post you suggested that Malchin was already self-aware and that was his problem. Have you changed your opinion here?

I'm not so sure how much we should extrapolate from the current situation back to how things were before the Recreance. With many more Radiants, the average quality/suitability of bonding partners was probably a lot lower (the good candidates would have been taken already). So maybe spren sometimes tried to force a bond and it didn't work out at all. Maybe there was competition between spren for high profile candidates? This is just speculation.

But yes, I agree with your overview: a successful Lightweaver candidate will need to be cracked (partially broken), have multiple large delusions to overcome and the strength of will to overcome them. They're pretty much literally "You don't have to be crazy to work here but it helps".

Putting it another way, assuming this is all correct, then a successful Lightweaver candidate has to have mental issues at the time. We know the person's spiritweb needs to be cracked for a spren to be able to form a bond but it would be interesting to know if such cracks would heal naturally if the person got over whatever had cracked them. If the cracks persist even if the person mentally recovers then the other Orders wouldn't need candidates who currently have mental issues (past or present issues would both work). At the least, the Lightweavers are the only Order to directly require candidates to overcome their mental issues to progress (their delusional issues at least), though I can imagine candidates from other Orders benefiting indirectly to some degree, so long as they are successful.

 

4 hours ago, Extesian said:

And I agree with your last sentence entirely it's not about gaining self-awareness per se, it's about them being fascinated by big lies that people tell themselves, but the person needs to gain self-awareness to have the ability to admit a huge lie to themselves. 

It will be interesting to see the long term effects on Shallan (and all the Radiants). We can probably assume she will become increasingly sensitive to "lies" in general. She's already quite sensitive to them - she worries about her lies and questions herself on several occasions. Maybe we'll see her more consciously shift modes between "being honest" and "putting on an act"...?

[Fulminato he/him]

the bond between shallan and patter predate the 'big broken soul event', and I suppose the bond don't was so faint because she had summoned patter in a blade to defend herself killing her mother. I think shallan are a 'good liar' character from the start, and not in a negative mean, in the same way a good actor need be a 'good lier' for proper do his works.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Fulminato

[kari-no-sugata]

Going back to the OP a bit, in a sense all the spren are "cruel" in that they aren't simply giving out magic power on demand for no compensation. I'm pretty sure that they have no other option - if the human they're bonded to doesn't uphold their end of the bargain then the spren can't provide the magic. And equally, if the human does uphold their end of the bargain then the spren can't not provide the magic.