The Dichotomy of Villains

[Fourth Of The Night]

@Calderis Oh! I missed that one when I've searched Oathstone in the archives, I guess!

[Siaun Sanche]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

That said, belief is powerful, and Szeth was following his. 

Religion in itself isn't evil. Religion, when abused can be. This is what was done with Szeth. 

Szeth is a full grown man, capable of deciding for himself what he believes and what his values are. If he values an abstract code of conduct enough to take the lives of innocent people, that's evil in my book.

EDIT TO ADD:

I want to clarify that I have no issue with how Szeth is written. This is just how I see the character morally, not how compelling I find him. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Harry the Heir
clarification

[Calderis]

19 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said:

Szeth is a full grown man, capable of deciding for himself what he believes and what his values are. If he values an abstract code of conduct enough to take the lives of innocent people, that's evil in my book.

EDIT TO ADD:

I want to clarify that I have no issue with how Szeth is written. This is just how I see the character morally, not how compelling I find him. 

Then your issue is with the Shin and their beliefs. The Oathstone, and his status as Truthless are a part of their society/religion. 

He is following the beliefs he was raised with. As a "grown man" who grew being taught exactly what his society said was right and wrong, I don't think things are as simple as you want them to be. 

[Siaun Sanche]

Just now, Calderis said:

Then your issue is with the Shin and their beliefs. The Oathstone, and his status as Truthless are a part of their society/religion.

In part, sure. But he is a person who makes choices for himself without compulsion, as is anybody else. If somebody launches a violent pogrom because they come from a society and a religion that emphasizes anti-Semitism, that is an evil person doing an evil thing, even if you could also make an argument that the society that they come from is complicit in that act as well.

Also, no culture in Roshar is painted so black and white that fundamental beliefs go completely without challenge. There are Alethi who don't agree with the gender segregation, who don't believe in the Almighty, who oppose the rule of the light-eyes, et cetera. I'm sure that Shinovar is the same way regarding their fundamental beliefs.

[Calderis]

11 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said:

In part, sure. But he is a person who makes choices for himself without compulsion, as is anybody else. If somebody launches a violent pogrom because they come from a society and a religion that emphasizes anti-Semitism, that is an evil person doing an evil thing, even if you could also make an argument that the society that they come from is complicit in that act as well.

Also, no culture in Roshar is painted so black and white that fundamental beliefs go completely without challenge. There are Alethi who don't agree with the gender segregation, who don't believe in the Almighty, who oppose the rule of the light-eyes, et cetera. I'm sure that Shinovar is the same way regarding their fundamental beliefs.

Except, as a whole. The Shin view taking up a weapon as an act worthy of servitude. Theirs is a society that demands compliance. 

The darker side of such a strict society is that punishment for non-conformity is both harsh and swift. I think that although the Shin appear remarkably peaceful, there is a much harsher and more violent society that outsiders never see. A society centered on peace gas no need of developing a martial art, and yet Szeth is a master of Kemmer. 

I fully believe Szeth is a product of a society that does not tolerate aberration from the social norm. His punishment reflects that. 

[Siaun Sanche]

Well, certainly the whole Truthless system seems questionable from the beginning. It seems like you're asking for somebody to behave the way that Szeth does, even if they're not necessarily as good at it. But at the same time there's no enforcement mechanism. No external force stops a person from chucking the Oathstone into a river and going skinny dipping with the Reshi, and surely some of the Truthless must do something like that. People can and do leave strict cultures all the time, particularly when they're living far away from home. (My own upbringing was in a strict religious community of which I am no longer a member.)

[Stormrunner1730]

5 hours ago, Harry the Heir said:

I mean, all that made him a dangerous zealot, but the fact of the matter is the idea that he was 'compelled' to do these things was a lie he told himself. He wasn't literally compelled to do so, by some sort of magic. He had the ability to walk away at any time. He preferred to abide by blind zealotry at the cost of many many lives. That's evil. And it doesn't cut a lot of ice with me that he walked away when he was no longer able to lie to himself. He should have walked away when he was first asked to murder an innocent.

According to the herald of Justice, Lift and Ym needed to be killed. The herald of Justice is crazy.

 

Like I said before, Szeth was morally against his own actions.  He was simply sticking to the belief system that had governed his way of life and thought process for his entire life.  This is what Honor has defined as a key attribute for a Radiant.  Brandon has been very careful about not labelling Shards or their Intents as "good" or "evil".  So, Szeth acting according to his belief system does not make him evil.  He's most certainly an antagonist to anyone not on Taravangian's team until the end of WOR.  But that doesn't make Szeth as a character evil.

All of the Heralds are insane.  Nale was acting on information fed to him by Ishar.  In his added state of mind, what Ishar told him about Radiats brining about the Desolation made sense.  Once Lift convinced him otherwise, he abandoned this line of thought (well, that we know of).

[Siaun Sanche]

Just now, Stormrunner1730 said:

Like I said before, Szeth was morally against his own actions.

Does that make it better? If he knew it was wrong but he keeps doing it, then he's particularly responsible. Nobody could say that he wasn't aware of the harm he was causing to others, or how little they deserved it.

[Calderis]

53 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said:

Does that make it better? If he knew it was wrong but he keeps doing it, then he's particularly responsible. Nobody could say that he wasn't aware of the harm he was causing to others, or how little they deserved it.

This is why this series is so great. Conversations like this. 

Szeth is dedicated to his beliefs, and performing actions that he finds morally reprehensible because of what he thinks is right. 

Taravangian is doing the same, not because he thinks it's right but because he thinks it's necessary. 

Kaladin approached the point of participating in the assassination of a king, and he didn't come to think that was wrong because of the death of that person, but because he realized how much the target meant to someone else. 

Dalinar is extremely honorable, and questions repeatedly if that is enough to make up for a lifetime of slaughter.

Shallan is emotionally shattered and killed both of her parents. 

There's no good and evil in this series. It's shades of gray across the board. Discussions on philosophy and the nature of morality. 

It's all relative. It's all matters of perspective. 

[Krandacth]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

The darker side of such a strict society is that punishment for non-conformity is both harsh and swift. I think that although the Shin appear remarkably peaceful, there is a much harsher and more violent society that outsiders never see.

See: Derethil and the Wandersail.

While this is poignant to Kaladin, I wonder what Szeth's reaction would have been?

Also, many people seem to think of Shinovar as some kind of peaceful Utopia, but what lies under the surface of every apparent Utopia in literary history? Like @Calderis, I'd bet Shinovar is every bit as dystopian as the Oceania of Orwell's 1984.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Krandacth

[Toaster Retribution]

Szeth isn't evil. Some people have huge problems with laws and codes, and feels a need to follow just about everything their soceity says. Szeth appears to be one of those persons. 

Evil is a word thrown around a lot, and a word that I mostly tend to dislike labeling people with. Humans are extremely complex, and are affected by all kinds of things. Upbringing, culture, religion, relationships... the list goes on. Simply reducing people to being evil is most of the time an insult to the complexity of human beings. 

Szeth is following codes that he learned were true. He is not evil.

Taravangian is murdering people to save humanity. He is not evil.

Amaram wants to bring his gods back and return power to the church. He is not evil. 

All these characters are doing things that are evil, but they do it for a reason that they believe to be good. That makes them misguided in our eyes, yes. But if we called everyone we found misguided evil, there would be a whole lot of bad persons.

tl;dr: Calling people evil is often an oversimplification of reality, since most people aren't actually evil.

[The One Who Connects]

Have some quotes from another book series exploring the nature of good and evil.

Quote

Jedi girl, you're not strong enough to save lives. You're not strong enough to sacrifice one to save many.
     -I would sacrifice myself to save many.
Yes. But then you wouldn't have to face the accusing eyes of the survivors, the friends and family of those you sacrificed. You don't have that kind of strength.
     -That's ruthlessness. Not strength.
Strength that is never touched by ruthlessness is touchingly irresponsible. Perhaps you will be fortunate and never have to decide the fate of an innocent life.

   —Darth Vectivus and Nelani Dinn.

Fate of the Jedi, Book 1: Betrayal

Quote

When you let go of your need to be the admired and respected one, to be the hero, and face being reviled for doing a necessary job, then you had finally overcome the most poisonous attachment of all: the love of ego. [Spoilers] was prepared to be hated in pursuit of a greater good.

Fate of the Jedi, Book 2: Bloodlines

Quote

This is the ultimate test of selflessness—whether you're ready to face unending emotional pain for your actions, in order to gain the power to create peace and order for billions of total strangers. That is the sacrifice. To be vilified by others, by people that you care about, and for your personal sacrifice to be totally unknown to the billions you save. To do your duty to the galaxy. It's easy to be a clean-cut hero slaying monsters. There's always a little bit of vanity in it. There can be no room for vanity and pride in being despised.

   —Lumiya

Fate of the Jedi, Book 3: Tempest

---

I've still got books 4 through 9 to reread, and I imagine I'll have several more fitting quotes by the end of it. To those that are curious, this is the book series that I refer to in the Dalinar Theory in my signature. As a parting line:

"What do you call someone who joins sides with evil because of a well-reasoned argument?"   -Nelani Dinn

[Stormrunner1730]

11 hours ago, Harry the Heir said:

Does that make it better? If he knew it was wrong but he keeps doing it, then he's particularly responsible. Nobody could say that he wasn't aware of the harm he was causing to others, or how little they deserved it.

Oh I'm by no means saying it makes what Szeth did better.  Szeth did some terrible stuff, which is not to be excused.  But his motivations were not evil.  As far as we know, Szeth has no other point of reference for morality other than the Shin religion (I'm sure this will be explored in his flashback book).  But as afar as we know, he was just following what he believed.

Take the issue of gay marriage and Christianity.  An LGBTQ person would argue that a fundamentalist Christian is intolerant and evil because they won't accept gay marriage.  A fundamentalist Christian might argue that homosexuality is a sin because the Bible says it is (it doesn't actually say this if you look at it from a certain point of view/context, but that's not a whole different topic/not a discussion for this thread), and therefore an LGBTQ person is evil.  Neither group is morally wrong from an absolute point of view.  It's all about the perspective.  

Likewise, Szeth is not evil for following the Shin religion to the letter.  Just like Moash isn't inherently evil for wanting to kill Elokhar.  Like @Caderis said, Taravangian isn't evil for wanting to save humanity.  He's done some pretty messed up things, but from his perspective, they are justified if he saves humanity from the Desolation.

I'm also going to jump on the bandwagon and praise this series for sparking this type of discussion.  I could talk about this stuff all day.  For the record, I love this whole dialogue and I hope I haven't come across as being too bullheaded about this (the lack of absolute good and evil in regards to certain characters at least).           

Edited September 26, 2017 by Stormrunner1730

[Everstorm Entropy]

18 hours ago, Harry the Heir said:

Szeth is a full grown man, capable of deciding for himself what he believes and what his values are. If he values an abstract code of conduct enough to take the lives of innocent people, that's evil in my book.

EDIT TO ADD:

I want to clarify that I have no issue with how Szeth is written. This is just how I see the character morally, not how compelling I find him. 

How many atrocious acts in the history of the world have been committed by "full grown [men], capable of deciding for [themselves] what [they] believe and what [their] values are?"  How many of those people did so because they were convinced they were doing the right thing; usually because their religion, country, or military told them so?  How many soldiers across all periods of time and all nations would kill others because their commanding officer says its best for their country?

Of course, you're right that the choice comes down to us as individuals.  But people can be influenced, people can be taken advantage of, and if someone had built their entire life upon a single truth and they were instructed to act to keep that intact, I have no doubt in my mind that a scary amount of people would follow suit.

[Siaun Sanche]

8 hours ago, Everstorm Entropy said:

How many atrocious acts in the history of the world have been committed by "full grown [men], capable of deciding for [themselves] what [they] believe and what [their] values are?"  How many of those people did so because they were convinced they were doing the right thing; usually because their religion, country, or military told them so?  How many soldiers across all periods of time and all nations would kill others because their commanding officer says its best for their country?

I'm with this chain of logic right up until you start to suggest that all those individuals aren't also evil.

13 hours ago, Stormrunner1730 said:

Likewise, Szeth is not evil for following the Shin religion to the letter.  Just like Moash isn't inherently evil for wanting to kill Elokhar.  Like @Caderis said, Taravangian isn't evil for wanting to save humanity.  He's done some pretty messed up things, but from his perspective, they are justified if he saves humanity from the Desolatio         

I don't care about whether Szeth's or Taravangian's murders are justified by their own beliefs. Everybody who does evil acts has some method of rationalizing them. The worst humans in the world will come with some reasoning for why they were justified in murdering humans. Based on this logic, why would you ever condemn anybody for anything?

[Calderis]

31 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said:

I'm with this chain of logic right up until you start to suggest that all those individuals aren't also evil.

I don't care about whether Szeth's or Taravangian's murders are justified by their own beliefs. Everybody who does evil acts has some method of rationalizing them. The worst humans in the world will come with some reasoning for why they were justified in murdering humans. Based on this logic, why would you ever condemn anybody for anything?

The real question to me, comes down to this. 

What right do any of us have to condemn anyone? Our subjective morality is just as flawed as everyone else's. Their all built either through acceptance or rejection of the things we've been taught.

Your belief in what is evil, at its core, is no more valid than the people who you would deem evil who are doing what they believe is right. The only difference is majority acceptance. 

So is morality real, or just a consensus vote? 

[WhiteLeeopard]

21 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

"What do you call someone who joins sides with evil because of a well-reasoned argument?"

Betrayer of Hope  

The problem of doing the wrong things for the right reasons is that it is not too long before you start making the wrong things for the wrong reasons, or just the wrong things because its what you are used to. 

[Everstorm Entropy]

10 hours ago, Harry the Heir said:

I'm with this chain of logic right up until you start to suggest that all those individuals aren't also evil.

I know these topics about morality always get a bit dicey, and I don't want this to start treading potentially offensive grounds... but by that statement are you saying that all soldiers are evil?  Militaries from all nations and all points in history?  Because those are the very people I was referring to: people who have been instructed to kill because they believe (or are led to believe) that what they are doing is for a greater purpose.  

I'm not trying to push buttons or strike a nerve with your own personal code; I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from in saying that.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Everstorm Entropy

[Stormrunner1730]

10 hours ago, Harry the Heir said:

I'm with this chain of logic right up until you start to suggest that all those individuals aren't also evil.

I don't care about whether Szeth's or Taravangian's murders are justified by their own beliefs. Everybody who does evil acts has some method of rationalizing them. The worst humans in the world will come with some reasoning for why they were justified in murdering humans. Based on this logic, why would you ever condemn anybody for anything?

 

9 hours ago, Calderis said:

The real question to me, comes down to this. 

What right do any of us have to condemn anyone? Our subjective morality is just as flawed as everyone else's. Their all built either through acceptance or rejection of the things we've been taught.

Your belief in what is evil, at its core, is no more valid than the people who you would deem evil who are doing what they believe is right. The only difference is majority acceptance. 

So is morality real, or just a consensus vote? 

Morality gets tricky.  I personally don't feel that Szeth or Taravangian's murders are justified (Adolin's murder of Sadeas certainly isn't.  As happy as that moment made me...).  But "good" and "evil" are in the eye of the beholder.  Do all humans agree on what is good and what is not?  If we did, there would never be conflict of any sort.  As such though, no human has had the same exact experience.  We all have different upbringings and perspectives.  I might start a new topic for this since we're getting kind of off topic to the original post.  

Edited September 27, 2017 by Stormrunner1730