Did Rayse Kill His Parents?

[Confused]

This WoB suggests Rayse had multiple motives for killing Shards. (Source.)

Argent: So, did Rayse choose those Shards [to splinter] because -

Brandon Sanderson: He went after Ambition first, but didn’t find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list.

Argent: Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel, or the person?

Brandon Sanderson: In this case it was the Shard primarily. He was afraid that this was a Shard that would rival him. But he then got trapped in the Rosharan system.

“In this case”? Did Odium have other motives than Shard “rivalry” in other cases? I speculate that Rayse detoured from Ambition to kill his parents Aona and Skai.

I characterize Devotion and Dominion’s Mandates (Intents) as “Love” and “Control.” That strikes me as a typical “parenting” combo – one parent keeps the kids under control while the other nurtures and loves them unconditionally. I believe Brandon intended this parenting combination. Devotion and Dominion had a pre-Shattering relationship and came to Sel together. Devotion’s love wanted to grant mortals the gift of magic. Dominion agreed, but only under tight controls. Hence, Sel’s “programmatic” form-based magic.

It’s understandable why Odium sought Ambition first. It’s understandable why he later sought Honor, his magical antithesis. (Honor binds; Odium severs.) But why Devotion? Dominion maybe, but both of them? And so early in his killing spree? What kind of threat could they pose to chase them down first?

Compared to his other killings, Odium murdered Skai and Aona in a particularly vicious way. It was personal. Odium wasn’t content to just kill them. He stomped on their souls and stuffed them into the Cognitive Realm. It’s the Shardic equivalent of cutting up your victim and hiding the pieces in the basement.

Hoid in the First Letter describes Rayse as “among the most loathsome, crafty and dangerous individuals I had ever met.” That makes you wonder what the criteria were for participating in the Shattering.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Confused

[Khyrindor he/him]

I like this. I always figured it amounted to Dominion being a good target, I could see that. And then Devotion being his "opposite" Shard, and therefore his equal. I'm however, getting less and less sure that Shards come in pairs so that idea is off the table.

[+Extesian he/him]

I like it. I mean I'd need more to be convinced but I do like it.

But for me this was always the reason he stuffed them into the cognitive realm

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QUESTION

The next question I have is does Odium have to recover after Shattering a Shard?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It is a difficult process that is very taxing.

He did so because he was already weak from splintering Ambition and that was easier than properly splintering two more Shards. No proof, but that's my suspicion.

Doesn't mean there's not more to it but says hecwasn't necessarily being cruel, just tired and lazy.

[Modal Seoul he/him]

I think that Rayse was there to splinter Skai. We know that both Dominion and Devotion control AonDor, but it is speculated that Dominion had more "authority" over the power. So, I place a scenario. Rayse wants to kill his father, Dominion. His mother, Devotion, is too devoted to let that happen, so Rayse ends up killing both. Devotion ends up being collateral damage here. Also, isn't strange that only Dominion seems to be mentioned by the people?

[dgenio8]

1 hour ago, Extesian said:

I like it. I mean I'd need more to be convinced but I do like it.

But for me this was always the reason he stuffed them into the cognitive realm

He did so because he was already weak from splintering Ambition and that was easier than properly splintering two more Shards. No proof, but that's my suspicion.

Doesn't mean there's not more to it but says hecwasn't necessarily being cruel, just tired and lazy.

I tought Odium splitered Ambition AFTER spliter Dominion and Devotion.

[Modal Seoul he/him]

1 minute ago, dgenio8 said:

I tought Odium splitered Ambition AFTER spliter Dominion and Devotion.

No. Ambition was Splintered shortly after the Shattering. Rayse realized the danger.

[dgenio8]

1 minute ago, Captains Domon said:

No. Ambition was Splintered shortly after the Shattering. Rayse realized the danger.

Isn't this WoB saying the oposite? He went after Ambition, but could only find it after splintering Devotion and Dominion.

4 hours ago, Confused said:

Argent: So, did Rayse choose those Shards [to splinter] because -

Brandon Sanderson: He went after Ambition first, but didn’t find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list.

Argent: Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel, or the person?

Brandon Sanderson: In this case it was the Shard primarily. He was afraid that this was a Shard that would rival him. But he then got trapped in the Rosharan system.

 

 

 

[Modal Seoul he/him]

If you've read my post above, I'm going to add on. I also believe Ambition is connected to this theory, so if Rayse did search for Ambition, maybe he went to Sel to ask them "politely" where Ambition was. Also, I don't think Ambition had a set planet it resided on. It just found Threnody and hid.

[+Extesian he/him]

12 minutes ago, dgenio8 said:

I tought Odium splitered Ambition AFTER spliter Dominion and Devotion.

Argh I'm sorry I typed that totally not paying attention. One too many wines. I meant to use the WoB to show its a big exhausting thing to Shatter a Shard. My theory is because of that, and because there were two of them, and probably because he wanted to go after Ambition after, he saved some energy by stuffing them in the cognitive realm rather than Splintering them properly. My bad.

[Quiver he/him]

I guess you could say they 'Raysed' a murderer.

... Snark is the only thing I have to contribute to this conversation, carry on.

[ROSHtaFARian2.0]

I think there's any number of possible connections Rayse could've had to Aona and Skai to get fully on board with the parents theory with so little basis, but I do agree that their deaths were probably personally motivated, and for whatever reason, he really hated the two of them. Could just as easily be a jilted lover thing though - lol maybe Aona had a thing for the bad boys but ultimately she chose Skai for a turbulent on-again off-again relationship instead of Rayse.

[Ciridae]

I really like the idea of most of the Vessels being connected in some way other than shattering Adonalsium. 

Just to provide an alternative motive for Odium going after D&D is that he may have been afraid of the two combining. Others have speculated that the combination could have been quite natural, as both shards seem to strive towards unity, albeit in different ways. We do see that Odium continued to target bishardic planets, maybe for a similar reason. 

Still, I really think its a great theory even if we can only speculate at this point.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Ciridae

[Faceless Mist-Wraith he/him]

I don't know if I missed something, so I'm going to ask, how do we know that Skai and Aona were Rayse's parents? Was this mentioned in a WOB somewhere?

[Landis963 he/him]

1 minute ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I don't know if I missed something, so I'm going to ask, how do we know that Skai and Aona were Rayse's parents? Was this mentioned in a WOB somewhere?

We don't.  If anything, it is an interesting line of supposition, but nothing more.  

[Weltall]

7 hours ago, Confused said:

It’s understandable why Odium sought Ambition first. It’s understandable why he later sought Honor, his magical antithesis. (Honor binds; Odium severs.) But why Devotion? Dominion maybe, but both of them? And so early in his killing spree? What kind of threat could they pose to chase them down first?

Devotion (as a synonym for Love) is even more diametrically opposed to Odium and it's entirely possible that Aona found herself second/third on Odium's Murder List for precisely that reason. The fact that she was working together with another Shard also makes her dangerous to him for a similar reason that Harmony's dangerous. I like the theory that Devotion and Dominion were taken out by Odium and Autonomy working together to take out their opposing numbers and Brandon has hinted that this sort of thing might just have happened offscreen at some point (WoB). We don't need to read any more into Odium's stuffing their power into the Cognitive Realm than 'he wanted to make absolutely sure nobody would take that power up again'. Ambition was wounded in the space between worlds in the Threnodite System and finished off somewhere else so its power was really dispersed but the Selish pair might have been taken up again at some point in the future if that power remained available. Odium might indeed have tried doing the same thing to Honor except that 1) there was another Shard on the planet he had to worry about and 2) the Oathpact might have constrained him.

Thus, I don't think we need to read anything special into the manner in which Odium dealt with Devotion and Dominion and there certainly isn't enough to use that as the basis for thinking they were his parents.

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Hoid in the First Letter describes Rayse as “among the most loathsome, crafty and dangerous individuals I had ever met.” That makes you wonder what the criteria were for participating in the Shattering.

'Being willing to murder the guy who currently had the God gig' is the only qualification we can determine at this point, with varying reasons for why one would participate so we can't use that to narrow anything down.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Weltall

[Calderis he/him]

It's not just that Rayse was scared of D&D being picked up again, he didn't want the investiture to become sentient. Large enough chunks of investiture develop a sort of mind of their own if left unheld for too long (no idea how long that takes). Shoving D&D into the CR was his way of making sure the Shards not only stayed unheld, but stayed mindless. Although it seems that didn't totally work because the Dor has started giving the land itself some form of sentience (this doesn't pose a problem to Odium though, so I guess his efforts were successful).

[Argent he/him]

3 hours ago, Quiver said:

I guess you could say they 'Raysed' a murderer.

You go in the corner and think about what you have done!

On topic, I like it. I don't think this explanation is inevitable as you suggest it might be - Rayse could've gone after Aona and Skai because he was afraid they might form an alliance against him (because of pre-Shattering friendship, or because of compatibility of mandates, or something else entirely), or because of another personal grudge. As to why he didn't just Splinter them like he did Ambition and Honor after them, I actually think I recall a WoB about how he didn't yet know how to Splinter properly. Rayse always knew he didn't want to just kill the other Vessels because that left the Shard available for pickup. But I don't think he knew how to Splitner their minds this early in his "career", so he did the next best thing - he made them extremely dangerous to even approach, let alone separate. By the time he got to Ambition, he must've figured it out.

But I like the idea. Very nicely thematic.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Argent

[ZenBossanova]

What I saw Rayse doing, was first, destroy a person whose ambition may have been greater power (combining shards) and secondly, to attack shards who were mixing their powers and investiture. (Dominion & Devotion,  Honor & Cultivation). Thirdly, that explains his interest in Harmony. 

I think this goes back to his original interest in shattering in the first place. He just hasn't stopped trying to shatter Adonalsium. So whatever his original motivation was, I suspect that he thinks he just hasn't gone far enough yet. 

This might relate to what little we know of The Liar of Parthenel, though I am unclear if we can discuss that here. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

44 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

This might relate to what little we know of The Liar of Parthenel, though I am unclear if we can discuss that here. 

I don't know whether it is allowed to be discussed, but I do see people mention it in its current state as non-canon. Meaning that it might not be as useful of a discussion piece for future revelations.

If we are allowed to discuss it, I'd label it with Liar of Partinel Spoilers, and probably a "may not be canon" disclaimer like some MAG discussions had. If we are not allowed to speak of it, I'm sure someone who knows more will tell you.

[Weltall]

Unlike White Sand (Prose) and Aether of Night it's technically publiclly available even if you have to do some digging to find it so under the site rules it's okay to discuss what we know from the sample chapters. However, given everything Brandon has said about it, the discussion wouldn't necessarily lead to much since we can't be sure what he'll keep and what he'll jettison in the ultimately published version. Aside from AU making it clear that fainlife in some form is definitely canon.

Quote

However, there’s one caveat: if, say, sample chapters for an unpublished were posted, as is the case for Liar of Partinel, then everyone is able to read them, so that means we can discuss it. Still, best keep that stuff in the General Theories forum.

 

Edited March 11, 2017 by Weltall

[Yata he/him]

On 10/3/2017 at 6:08 PM, Argent said:

As to why he didn't just Splinter them like he did Ambition and Honor after them, I actually think I recall a WoB about how he didn't yet know how to Splinter properly.

Correct me if I am wrong.

But I think all the Odium's victims were killed and Splintered in the same way. The only differences between Selish and Rosharan cases are in the sorrounding factors.

On Roshar we don't have a Dor-like phenomen just because for Roshar's nature the birth of Spren from power is really really easy and Spren act as release valve for Honor's power, this along with another living shard who could managing the situation better.

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BRANDON SANDERSON ()

It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel.

PHANTINE

Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless...

WINDRUNNER17

This is an awesome answer!

If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered?

Thanks!

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. (One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The Seons and the Skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial

This probably mean that regardless on the actual Splintering method....the outcome will be the same.

Notice a Vesselless Shard if not picked could auto-Splinter itself.

[Argent he/him]

It's one of the reasons. I really thought Odium didn't know how to properly Spinter Shards the first time around...

[Yata he/him]

You could be right....But I am unsure. After all engaging two enemies without the "Skill" to killing them fast is probably foolness