Theory: Realmatic Transference During the Shaod

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

WORDS OF RADIANCE SPOILERS

 

For a long time, I've been obsessed with the realmatics of sentience. I was thus overjoyed when Syl finally filled us in on why the Nahel Bond is necessary for a spren to become self-aware:

 

"Coming here risked death. Without you, without a mind born of this realm, I couldn’t think."

 

-Sylphrena to Kaladin, Chapter 9 of Words of Radiance (link)

 

So, for a spren to be sentient while in the Physical Realm, it must be bonded with a mind "born of" the Physical Realm.

 

Now, let's apply this new information to Seons. After the Reod, Seons whose masters were struck by the Shaod underwent a transformation that almost exactly parallels unbonded spren. Previously, this has been something of a puzzle, as these Seons are still bonded to their masters, and once Elantris was restored and the Shaod was allowed to complete itself, the broken Seons returned to their previous state, their bonds apparently unaffected by the process. It is only during the Shaod, with the transformation half-completed, that the Seons lose their sentience.

 

Bringing these thoughts together, we can arrive at the conclusion that, during the transformative process of the Shaod, an Elantrian no longer counts as "a mind born of this realm."

 

So far, this is all simple deduction, but this is 17th Shard, so I of course have to push past that into the realm of imaginative fancy.

 

What causes the Shaod? Elantris. An enormous Aon Rao: the Aon for "spirit." I posit that the function of Elantris is to temporarily lift individuals out of the Physical Realm and into the Spiritual. Direct exposure to something in the Spiritual Realm then causes the transformation into an Elantrian (The Dor, perhaps? I believe that Shards are primarily Spiritual entities). Because these people are no longer in the Physical Realm, Seons attached to them suddenly lack the Physical mind required to maintain their sentience. Once their masters reenter the Physical Realm as Elantrians, however, this damage is repaired.

 

On a semi-related note, does anyone know what happens to Seons when their master dies before Passing them to a new host? Assuming they attach themselves to a new master, how do they choose one?

Edited August 13, 2014 by Wonko the Sane

[Kurkistan he/him]

Sorry, but I think you're a bit off in your conclusions. The bond is actually broken by the Shaod Reod. Maybe it auto-reestablished when the city-Aon was repaired, but the Seons were bond-less, not just bonded to "a mind [not] born of this realm".

Here's some more quotes on sentience, by the way, as you're interested in it.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2383-qa-with-brandon-sanderson/page-7?p=42374#entry42374 - Kandra

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=836#26 - Syl

EDIT: Fixed link.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Love this idea... I think you are definitely on to something here with the sentience of non-bonded Spren and Reod Seons. 

 

I don't think the Shaod as to do with the physical city of Elantris however... In his annotations to Elantris, we have WoB that says Elantrians came before Elantris the city. 

 

Elantris Annotation 62-2

 

it is true that the Aonic people, when they came to this area of Sel discovered Elantris already created and Empty... which is weird, and I posit has something to do with the shattering/splintering of Devotion, but I digress...

 

We know that Elantrians existed before Elantris, and that it wasn't until the Aonic people migrated to that area of Sel that they started being taken by the Shaod. I think the Shaod has less to do with Elantris as a vehicle and more to do with region/nearness to the shard pool or something like that. 

 

Elantrians are in a permanent state of "powered up-ness" for lack of a better term. Their hair turns white, their skin takes on a silvery sheen. This seems very similar to someone who is holding a lot of Stormlight or a Returned, and we know from HERE that Stormlight is Investiture. 

 

I think when someone undergoes the Shaod, their sDNA is re-written and they are being invested with some power of Devotion, so while they are being re-written their bond to their Seon is severed, but is restored after the re-write is complete. 

[bartbug he/him]

Umm... Kurk? That link says that the chasm broke the bond, not the Shaod.

I think that you're confusing the Shaod, the process that every Elantrian, even post-chasm ones, with the the chasm coming into being.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Right you are. The point stands once I correct the term, though.

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

Sorry, but I think you're a bit off in your conclusions. The bond is actually broken by the Shaod. Maybe it auto-reestablished when the city-Aon was repaired, but the Seons were bond-less, not just bonded to "a mind [not] born of this realm".

 

Here's some more quotes on sentience, by the way, as you're interested in it.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2383-qa-with-brandon-sanderson/page-7?p=42374#entry42374 - Kandra

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=836#26 - Syl

 

EDIT: Fixed link.

 

Blast. I felt like I had finally solved the Seon conundrum. I've always been intrigued by the Seon's reaction to the Shaod. Not everyone who has a Seon becomes an Elantrian, and not every Elantrian has a Seon. The two are distinct phenomena, so their interaction must be a side effect of the Shaod process. I feel that further investigation into this matter is likely to provide a large degree of insight into both the exact realmatic mechanics of the Shaod and, more importantly, the nature of the bond between Splinters and humans.

 

I also feel that something must still tie a Seon and its half-Elantrian master, as the restoration of Elantris not only returned the Seons to their former state, but also their former masters.

 

@Green Hoodie Mistborn: The Shaod is a function of Elantris; this is confirmed by WoB. If there were Elantrians before the city was built, then I suspect they were created through a similar, Rao-based process, albeit on a smaller scale. I do not believe that an Arelon-wide Shaod field existed until Elantris was created.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

This might be helpful:
 

zas678

Why do Seons become broken when their person is taken by the Shaod?

Brandon Sanderson

A Seon has a Spiritual Connection with their user. When the Shaod takes the user, it messes up the spiritual nature of the user, and it really messes up the nature of the Seon.

 
(source)
 
Also Kurk, I think I disagree with your interpretation of that quote.  I take it to mean at the moment of the Reod, when the chasm opened up, the Seon's bonds were broken and had to be reformed and not that the bond is broken when someone is taken by the Shaod.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Actually, that's how I interpret that quote too. I said "Shaod" by accident, and meant Reod.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

I thought you were saying that the Seons of those who were taken by the Shaod had their bonds broken?  Because I'm pretty sure the bond still exists?  The quote in my last post seems to indicate so.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Okay, my fuzzy memory of Elantris terminology has betrayed me here, and I apologize for the suffering it has brought everyone.

 

For the sake of clarity, please ignore everything else I have said, as I now abandon proper terminology and speak like a small child:

 

I have been arguing that, based on these quotes, that following the formation of the Chasm and Elantris not having the right lines to complete its Aon, those who had been or became zombie-Elantrians had the bond to their glowing light thingies cut.

 

As to your new quote (which I, to add to my list of failures, did not read properly the first go-round), it seems to stand in direct opposition to my own, which is odd.

 

It may be, then, that the best way to reconcile the two is to claim that my quote, that claims the bond is broken, is an over-simplification, and that, in fact, your quote more completely describes the process.

 

Alternatively, your new quote could be interpreted as the "messing up" of the Seons being a simple and direct consequence of the bond being severed. At first blush, though, this seems an unnatural interpretation.

 

Please feel free to yell at me if I've managed to continue being unclear and confusing. 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

@Green Hoodie Mistborn: The Shaod is a function of Elantris; this is confirmed by WoB. If there were Elantrians before the city was built, then I suspect they were created through a similar, Rao-based process, albeit on a smaller scale. I do not believe that an Arelon-wide Shaod field existed until Elantris was created.

 

@Wonko do you have a link to that WoB? I've not been able to find that statement in my searches, but it would definitely change my thoughts on it. It would also contradict the Annotations for Elantris to which I linked. I'll wait to see a direct WoB on it though.

 

I agree the Arelon-wide Shaod field didn't exist until Elantris was created, as the Aon Rao amplifies the Shaod field, but my guess is there is something else that was more localized before Elantris that still caused the Shaod, perhaps even Devotion's direct involvement. Rao is an amplification Aon, so it's focusing and amplifying a pre-exisiting Shaod area/field/power that is localized on that region. Again my guess is the power well for Devotion in that mountain. 

 

In a similar way, Endowment only sends Returned to the Hallendren on Nalthis (at least that we've seen thus far). If there is a source confirming that Returned show up in non-Hallendren areas spontaneously that would sink my thought as well. 

[Kurkistan he/him]

Returned show up outside Hallandren. I believe this is even referenced in the book: a man Returning in Idris and being left to "starve" after a week.

Regardless, we do have WoB talking about how other nations deal with Returned, so that tells us that they exist elsewhere. No link at the moment because phone.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Returned show up outside Hallandren. I believe this is even referenced in the book: a man Returning in Idris and being left to "starve" after a week.

Regardless, we do have WoB talking about how other nations deal with Returned, so that tells us that they exist elsewhere. No link at the moment because phone.

 

Totally off topic at this point, but dang! I was thinking there was something to the local based nature of my thoughts related to Returned in Hallendren, Elantrians in Arelon, Radients on Roshar, possibly Allomancers/Feruchemists only on the northern continent of Scadrial...

 

There still may be something to it, but Elantris is the one that is most localized to only a portion of a continent which is where my thought comes from initially. 

 

Though Idris is on the border of some mountains with Hallendren. It would be informitive to see if the nations where Returned appear are only within a certain region of the continent, the whole continent, or Nathis as a whole. 

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

@Green Hoodie Mistborn: Here you go:

 

 

Interview: Mar 16th, 2012

A "Late-Breaking" Report (Paraphrased)

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (paraphrased)

The Shaod is an effect of Elantris.

 

link