Theory: Shardblades Barely Harm Infused Surgebinders

[Moogle]

This was just a random, off-the-cuff theory. Shardplate is full of Investiture, and it resists Shardblades breaking it. An infused Surgebinder is similarly full of Investiture (though perhaps not to the same degree?) and so should also be somewhat resistant to Shardblades.

 

I'm interested in this Szeth vs Kaladin duel.

[Kurkistan]

I doubt it. Szeth seems both highly knowledgable about and highly wary of Shardblade wounds. He knows enough to know that Infused Stormlight won't heal Shardblade wounds, so it seems that he ought to know if Infusing stops the wounds in the first place.

[Voidus]

Also if it were as easy as having high levels of investiture half-shards would have existed for a long time, in half shards the investiture is specifically directed at increasing the durability of the metal, I imagine Shardplate would need to do the same.

[Argent]

That's a good point. Investiture, by itself, free of Intent, seems to marginally improve - though Kaladin would say "perfect" - (some of the) the preexisting qualities of the Invested. On Nalthis, it improves sensory perception. On Roshar, physical capabilities. On Sel it could be argued that it improves health, granting the Elantrian a prolonged lifespan and immunity to disease. Scadrial is an iffy one, because none of the magic systems require the holding of Investiture; koloss and kandra are maybe the closest thing to a being that holds a Shard's power, and in them it boosts physical and mental ability respectively.

Plus Szeth was pretty worried a couple of times when Gavilar's Blade nearly kissed him.

[Elementalist]

That's a good point. Investiture, by itself, free of Intent, seems to marginally improve - though Kaladin would say "perfect" - (some of the) the preexisting qualities of the Invested. On Nalthis, it improves sensory perception. On Roshar, physical capabilities. On Sel it could be argued that it improves health, granting the Elantrian a prolonged lifespan and immunity to disease. Scadrial is an iffy one, because none of the magic systems require the holding of Investiture; koloss and kandra are maybe the closest thing to a being that holds a Shard's power, and in them it boosts physical and mental ability respectively.

Plus Szeth was pretty worried a couple of times when Gavilar's Blade nearly kissed him.

We don't know that none of Scadrial's magic systems require the holding of Investiture. I would be surprised if you didn't need to have at least a tiny bit of Investiture to use any magic, although I have no basis for that belief. Also, are Breaths even a form of investiture? I thought the were pieces of your soul. Then again, if Investiture only exists in the Spiritual Realm, perhaps Breaths can be both. Maybe all Investiture is a part of the soul, which can be considered synonymous to the Spiritual Aspect.

[Moogle]

I doubt it. Szeth seems both highly knowledgable about and highly wary of Shardblade wounds. He knows enough to know that Infused Stormlight won't heal Shardblade wounds, so it seems that he ought to know if Infusing stops the wounds in the first place.

 

The theory is mostly that it should protected against Shardblades, not stop them. Getting hit by a ten foot long sword is going to hurt whether or not it has a supernaturally sharp edge.

 

Second, Szeth believes he's a Windrunner. His knowledge is imperfect, and it's not like he's been hit by a Shardblade. The Shin detest combat. Who do you propose the Shin have tested a Shardblade on?

 

Finally, Szeth is a weak Surgebinder. Someone like Kaladin (who has sworn an Ideal) can hold much greater amounts of Stormlight and any protective benefits might take more to show up.

 

But yes, the theory does seem fairly unlikely. I hope it comes up in WoR.

[Argent]

I misspoke - I meant to say that a magic user on Scadrial appears no different from a regular person there unless they actively release the Investiture they previously stored (whether it's in metalminds or stomach). This Investiture doesn't benefit them at all if it's just sitting there - unlike Stormlight (which passively improves physical capabilities), unlike Breath (which passively improves senses), and unlike... the Dor? (which passively improves health).

[Pinpoint]

I was actually thinking about this when you posted the topic. I'm not sure if Szeth would know or not. It isn't like he has had personal experience and I doubt he would be willing to test the theory. 

[Moogle]

I misspoke - I meant to say that a magic user on Scadrial appears no different from a regular person there unless they actively release the Investiture they previously stored (whether it's in metalminds or stomach). This Investiture doesn't benefit them at all if it's just sitting there - unlike Stormlight (which passively improves physical capabilities), unlike Breath (which passively improves senses), and unlike... the Dor? (which passively improves health).

 

Scadrial is a low-Investiture world, which we could have guessed, because the high-Investiture worlds (Nalthis, Roshar, Sel) all result in people getting glowy.

 

It's also interesting that you note all the passive benefits of Investiture - the one thing they all share is that they provide a resistance to disease (or increase your health - Stormlight heals, Breath provides immunity to disease, as does the Dor), and the Dor/Breath are shown to provide immortality. That led to me theorizing that all Investiture slows aging, and great amounts (to the point where you glow or otherwise have a visible sign of holding Investiture) can lead to your aging completely stopping. So... there's a decent chance that the Knights Radiant are long-lived.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Moogle

[Tarion]

This was just a random, off-the-cuff theory. Shardplate is full of Investiture, and it resists Shardblades breaking it. An infused Surgebinder is similarly full of Investiture (though perhaps not to the same degree?) and so should also be somewhat resistant to Shardblades.

 

I'm interested in this Szeth vs Kaladin duel.

I think this has to be somewhat true, and apply to more than just Shardblades.  Stormlight has got to provide some sort of defence against the various tools of the Knights Radiant, or it's going to be really hard for Sanderson to build suspense.  This is especially true for Soulcasting.

 

"Oh look, an assassin"Zzap"Oh look, a paperweight".  

 

And this makes sense within the framework of the Cosmere, since Investiture protects against other Invested effects.  

[18th Shard]

 Scadrial is an iffy one, because none of the magic systems require the holding of Investiture; koloss and kandra are maybe the closest thing to a being that holds a Shard's power, and in them it boosts physical and mental ability respectively.

 

Boosts koloss mentally?!!!
 

[digitalbusker]

Scadrial is an iffy one, because none of the magic systems require the holding of Investiture; koloss and kandra are maybe the closest thing to a being that holds a Shard's power, and in them it boosts physical and mental ability respectively.

(emphasis mine)

Boosts koloss mentally?!!!

Koloss:Kandra::boosts physical:boosts mental

Because "respectively."

HTH!

[FingerstyleFunk]

I'll buy the idea that holding increased investiture should give some protection against other uses of it, particularly that holding a bunch of stormlight might make a person harder to soulcast... the passive effects of holding stormlight/investiture suggest something like increasing the "solidity" of one's cognitive form/spiritual connections and this preventing external influence.

 

All the known items that can block shardblades (shardplate, half-shards, Awakened steel) are definitely fairly heavily invested. But we really don't know where/how this investiture is acting, and shardblades work very differently for inanimate objects than for people. Shardblades just cut through inanimate things, and all the items above seem to stop the physical aspect of the blade. So it's probably not too relevant to investiture held by a person.

 

When it comes to people, there's no physical damage. Shardblades fuzz/blur around flesh... diminishing Physical presence? I like the theory that Feruchemical gold healing is largely a matter of Cognitive form as well, and WoB is that a bloodmaker could heal a shardblade wound (so it's got impact on Spiritual linking as well)... but it seems there's not really enough evidence to link stormlight/investiture healing and Feruchemical gold in that way. It seems plausible to me, though.

 

Very possible that Szeth's avoiding shardblade wounds even if he could recover is just a matter of ignorance (he's the first known non-Herald surgebinder in thousands of years, so how would he know he's that special?) combined with the fact that even if it CAN heal, a shardbearer you've picked a fight with isn't likely to let you live, nor are you likely to survive/escape, once you've lost use of a limb. That factor helps cover for the fact that "soul repair" seems like it could be a really overpowered aspect to infusing stormlight.

[Chlehrma]

Stormlight heals physical damage. A shard blade is spiritual damage. It is possibles the regrowth as an ability will heal a shard blade wound on a limb like Feruchemical gold can, but that is not the same as someone holding in a lot of stormlight while getting hit by a shard blade since the blade does not hit flesh. Shardplate functions as a blade blocker specifically because it is not alive and is heavily infused.

[Moogle]

Shardplate functions as a blade blocker specifically because it is not alive and is heavily infused.

 

Why does it being alive matter? A heavily infused Surgebinder vs. heavily infused metal doesn't seem terribly different to me, though naturally the Surgebinder will be squishier and the sword is still a sword and will likely be quite sharp.

[Chlehrma]

Why does it being alive matter? A heavily infused Surgebinder vs. heavily infused metal doesn't seem terribly different to me, though naturally the Surgebinder will be squishier and the sword is still a sword and will likely be quite sharp.

It is because of how the shard blades work. On living organisms they blur as they pass through killing the spiritual link. Think of it like a change in state like water can be solid, liquid, or gas. They shift into the spiritual realm and hit the spiritual link, but leave the physical untouched. Once the person, chasmfiend, etc. is dead, the blades can cut the flesh just like any other inanimate object.

Shardplate is already inanimate so the shard blade hits it on the physical plane rather than passing through it. This is not enough in itself, otherwise even normal plate mail would stop a blade. Because shardplate is heavily infused unlike normal plate mail, it blocks the blade.

As a living organism, Kaladin could infuse himself with the full power of a highstorm making himself impervious to surgebinding that effects his physical body and it would still not stop a shard blade. The shard blade when it meets flesh would shift into the spiritual realm and kill his soul's link to his body leaving his heavily infused physical body soulless and, as such, dead.

*it is my understanding that infusing is the mode of investiture on Roshar.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Chlehrma

[Voidus]

Investiture is inherently spiritual in nature, it would protect the spiritual component as much as the physical I believe.
However I still think that just investiture in and of itself is going to do very little for protection unless it's directed specifically to that end as it is in Half-shards and presumably Shard-plate. You'd need a lot of pure Stormlight to be able to resist a Shardblade.

[Aether]

Investiture is inherently spiritual in nature, it would protect the spiritual component as much as the physical I believe.

However I still think that just investiture in and of itself is going to do very little for protection unless it's directed specifically to that end as it is in Half-shards and presumably Shard-plate. You'd need a lot of pure Stormlight to be able to resist a Shardblade.

I wish to add that this would be entirely dependent on how heavily invested a Shardblade is. While presumably being composed of/containing a far from negligible amount of Investiture, we do know that Awakened Blades are "orders of magnitude more powerful than a Shardblade". Inhaling/absorbing Stormlight might improve resistance to infused weapons, but I do not think it would help at all against a weapon such as Nightblood. Whether it helps against a Shardblade - which would be significantly less potent - remains to be seen.

[Daishi5]

I like the theory, I just don't think it is true.  

 

So much of the book is based on the idea that these blades are weapons of devastating power.  If Kaladin can just absorb a bunch of stormlight and become immune to the most dangerous weapons in the book, it really robs the blades of the threat they represent to the main characters.  

[Moogle]

So much of the book is based on the idea that these blades are weapons of devastating power.  If Kaladin can just absorb a bunch of stormlight and become immune to the most dangerous weapons in the book, it really robs the blades of the threat they represent to the main characters.  

 

So you'd argue that Shardplate also robs Shardblades of the threat they represent? I'm not trying to argue that Stormlight makes you immune, mind. Just that it confers a slight resistance.

[Daishi5]

So you'd argue that Shardplate also robs Shardblades of the threat they represent? I'm not trying to argue that Stormlight makes you immune, mind. Just that it confers a slight resistance.

 

Yes.  Shardplate does rob shardblades of their threat.  That is a big part of the reason that Szeth coming to assassinate Dalinar is such an anticipated scene.  If Adolin, Dalinar, and Kaladin are present when Szeth shows up, Adolin is by far the least likely person to die because of his plate.  

 

From my understanding of investure, I wouldn't be surprised if you were right.  But for the story, I think shardblades are going to remain a mortal threat to anyone who doesn't have their own blade, plate, or half shard.  

[digitalbusker]

I think from a practical-storytelling standpoint, there has to be some defense against shardblade injury other than Plate, because otherwise the main cast will be winnowed down to people wearing Plate. And as awesome as a suit of magical power-armor sounds, it does limit the kinds of stories you can be in.

 

The non-Plate defense might be a shardblade of your own, although you've got to be immensely skilled to reliably avoid all contact with an enemy's weapon. It might be technological, like the half-shards or some other fabrial. Or it might be a thought-technology: "I will run like a bunny if I encounter a hostile person with a shardblade." It could even be lazy writing manifesting as luck or "main character shields", but I doubt that.

 

But I can't really see the series going for ten books without people developing other ways to compensate. Maybe holding stormlight will turn out to be some kind of defense--it would make some narrative sense, in that the people it would act to protect are already important to the narrative.

[Voidus]

Considering that a majority of the main cast are going to be Surgebinders in all likelyhood I don't see them all as needing Plate for protection, look at Szeth? I don't even know how many Shardbearers he's mowed through with impunity, they might be more of a threat to him than regular soldiers but Surgebinders are still in a league of their own even without protection from Blades

[Moogle]

Szeth is somewhat special because of both his Blade and his Surges. Jasnah, for example, wouldn't be able to take on a Surgebinder without a lot of gems and some somewhat specialized knowledge. She can't Soulcast the Surgebinder's Plate, and without a Blade she can't block other Shardblades (maaaaaaybe if this theory is true she'd be somewhat resistant, but still). Szeth's Surges afford him massive mobility, which is why he's capable of doing what he does.

 

That said, Transformation is still the most overpowered Surge. Jasnah could just Soulcast some poisonous gas in front of a Shardbearer's face, or Soulcast a ten foot pit below him, or Soulcast the air around him into sticky mud so he suffocates... there's a lot she can do, but she can't block a Shardblade, which means she needs to do a ranged Soulcasting, which means she's really limited by her gems.

[name_here]

I think that it would provide some degree of resistance, but probably not enough to actually stop a Shardblade. Investiture generally provides a limited shielding effect against external influence, but as noted a fabrial designed to block a Shardblade was extraordinarily difficult to create.