Chlehrma Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 If the only people who had shard blades prior to the recreance were radiants, then why would they ever worry about defending against them? They all took their oaths seriously and did not engage in infighting. It is only millennia later that it has become an issue primarily because people of lesser moral caliber now have them.
Vortaan he/him Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 That's a good point. Investiture, by itself, free of Intent, seems to marginally improve - though Kaladin would say "perfect" - (some of the) the preexisting qualities of the Invested. On Nalthis, it improves sensory perception. On Roshar, physical capabilities. On Sel it could be argued that it improves health, granting the Elantrian a prolonged lifespan and immunity to disease. Scadrial is an iffy one, because none of the magic systems require the holding of Investiture; koloss and kandra are maybe the closest thing to a being that holds a Shard's power, and in them it boosts physical and mental ability respectively. Plus Szeth was pretty worried a couple of times when Gavilar's Blade nearly kissed him. I think that saying Investiture, period, increases qualities is a bit misleading. Elantrans are a special case, even on Sel. Forgers and the users of ChayShan don't appear to be always glowy or immune to anything. It really seems to depend on the nature of the Investiture, not just Investiture in general. On topic, I don't know that I agree with the basic premise. If high amounts of Investiture was all that was needed to make something resistant to a Shardblade, how did Shallan's Soulcaster break?
PorridgeBrick he/him Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 I think that saying Investiture, period, increases qualities is a bit misleading. Elantrans are a special case, even on Sel. Forgers and the users of ChayShan don't appear to be always glowy or immune to anything. It really seems to depend on the nature of the Investiture, not just Investiture in general. On topic, I don't know that I agree with the basic premise. If high amounts of Investiture was all that was needed to make something resistant to a Shardblade, how did Shallan's Soulcaster break?He's talking about holding large amounts of Investiture. Neither Forgers, nor ChayShan users are holding any significant amount of Investiture most of the time. And when they do use their magic, ChayShan users are glowing, if only dimly.As for how much resistance you get from having Investiture, I'd say both Surgebinders and fabrials hold too little Investiture to make a difference. While they certainly are very Investiture heavy compared to say, Scadrial, I think the amounts you need to passively resist Shardblades would be astronomically high.
Voidus Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 Szeth is somewhat special because of both his Blade and his Surges. Jasnah, for example, wouldn't be able to take on a Surgebinder without a lot of gems and some somewhat specialized knowledge. She can't Soulcast the Surgebinder's Plate, and without a Blade she can't block other Shardblades (maaaaaaybe if this theory is true she'd be somewhat resistant, but still). Szeth's Surges afford him massive mobility, which is why he's capable of doing what he does. That said, Transformation is still the most overpowered Surge. Jasnah could just Soulcast some poisonous gas in front of a Shardbearer's face, or Soulcast a ten foot pit below him, or Soulcast the air around him into sticky mud so he suffocates... there's a lot she can do, but she can't block a Shardblade, which means she needs to do a ranged Soulcasting, which means she's really limited by her gems. Mobility is one way to avoid it, but if Jasnah has the Travel Surge then she has Szeth beat by a long way in mobility, teleporting is kind of the ultimate in that regard. Also putting a brick wall in between you and them is another way to avoid it, or incinerating them with fire, creating explosions of smoke would be handy for a getaway if you weren't interested in fighting, or heck just incasing them completely in stone, the Blade might be able to cut through it but that's not very helpful when you can't move the blade...
Chlehrma Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 Mobility is one way to avoid it, but if Jasnah has the Travel Surge then she has Szeth beat by a long way in mobility, teleporting is kind of the ultimate in that regard. Also putting a brick wall in between you and them is another way to avoid it, or incinerating them with fire, creating explosions of smoke would be handy for a getaway if you weren't interested in fighting, or heck just incasing them completely in stone, the Blade might be able to cut through it but that's not very helpful when you can't move the blade... For that matter she can drop him in Shadesmar and call it a day.
Ren he/him Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 I don't know about Surgebinders, but we have WoB that a strong spirit can interfere with the Shardblade as well. http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=977#143I don't think there's anyone with stronger spirit than Kaladin at the moment.
QuantumHarmonix he/him Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 I thought I saw something about what damaged what depended on the relative strengths of the investitures? If that is the case I see shardblades containing much more investiture than a surgebinder could hold, so the shardblade would cut through the surgebinder. But I'm also pretty sure that those with the growth surge could repair the damage with regrowth.
Aether he/him Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 He didn't say Shardblade in particular. I think it was more intended to mean that a strong spirit could resist emotional and cognitive manipulation, such as Soothing and Rioting. I do not think that a strong spirit would provide any sort of protection against a Blade.
name_here Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 There's apparently a slight tug of resistance when a shardblade cuts through a living creature. I think that's from their spirit interfering with the shardblade. But using that as a scale, it would be really hard to actually stop one. 2
Moogle Posted February 2, 2014 Author Posted February 2, 2014 There's apparently a slight tug of resistance when a shardblade cuts through a living creature. I think that's from their spirit interfering with the shardblade. But using that as a scale, it would be really hard to actually stop one. I think this is a very good point. If we could just find out if Szeth could cut an infused gemstone, we'd have a better idea of how much Investiture a Shardblade has and how many gems would need to be infused by a Surgebinder..
name_here Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 I'm pretty certain that Shardblades can cut straight through infused gemstones. Seems like it would have been mentioned if they had any noticeable trouble.
Moogle Posted February 2, 2014 Author Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) I'm pretty certain that Shardblades can cut straight through infused gemstones. Seems like it would have been mentioned if they had any noticeable trouble. Why would you ever cut through a gemstone, though? They're valuable. You wouldn't want to waste money. I don't think it would be mentioned, personally. Edited February 2, 2014 by Moogle
ryanespi Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 I don't know where to call this from an investiture standpoint, but I think in terms of the flow of the story it would be hard to make work. If ia shardblade no longer kills the soul of the limb, does it have no effect at all on surgebinders, if so it is somewhat worthless. But if it instead just cuts their flesh like a normal blade it would basically have the exact same effect since it would cut through weapons and armor with no resistance, making them more deadly because not only do you not have a limb but you have to worry about blood loss. Like the theory it just doesn't seem practical to the story. Why would you ever cut through a gemstone, though? They're valuable. You wouldn't want to waste money. I don't think it would be mentioned, personally. Because you are a guy with a cool sword and your wealthy, bored, stupid, curious, and feeling a little destructive. All adjectives that I might use to describe the Alethi upper class.
Iarvos Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 Why would you ever cut through a gemstone, though? They're valuable. You wouldn't want to waste money. I don't think it would be mentioned, personally. One circumstantial argument is that half shards could be fairly easy to make if all they took was crusting a shield with gemstones, and then leaving the shield out in a storm. Admittedly they'd have disadvantages such as the gems being knocked loose, but the advantage of being able to stop a shardblade would more than compensate for that. So, given that there doesn't seem to be any halfshard like objects that are composed of gem encrusted shields, I strongly suspect that gems are cuttable.
name_here Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 Why would you ever cut through a gemstone, though? They're valuable. You wouldn't want to waste money. I don't think it would be mentioned, personally. People frequently carry around infused gemstones, including into battle. So shardblades would occasionally strike them in a fight. While it wouldn't happen often, it would almost certainly have happened at least once. Everyone seems convinced they can cut through anything, so it seems doubtful there's a readily available exception. Also, when Adolin is cutting out a gemheart, he's careful not to cut the gem itself. So apparently Shardblades can damage gemhearts.
Moogle Posted February 3, 2014 Author Posted February 3, 2014 Also, when Adolin is cutting out a gemheart, he's careful not to cut the gem itself. So apparently Shardblades can damage gemhearts. Gemhearts aren't infused when they're taken, though your first point makes sense. I'll think about it, but for some reason I was thinking gemstones would be as infused as it's possible to do, so after a highstorm passes over it should be like Shardplate.
duladen he/him Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 This theory just occurred to me, but it seems as though @Moogle beat me to it by about 4 days. +1 for you! Based on the discussion here, and my own thoughts, I think holding stormlight will definitely interfere with a Shardblade. If someone is holding stormlight, I think being struck with a Blade would go one of four ways: 1. Stormlight does nothing; Blade acts like normal 2. Stormlight nulls the spiritual effects of Blade and it cuts like it would an inanimate object. (I think this is pretty unlikely) 3. Stormlight strengthens the bodies connection to the Spiritual Realm, and prevents the Blade from severing the connection. It is likely that there is threshold for how much stormlight one needs to get this protection, and I'd guess that the more advanced the surgebinder, the less stormlight they would need. 4. Stormlight protects against the spiritual effects of a Blade, but a significant amount Stormlight is drained to achieve this. Personally, I am a fan of #3 being correct. One possible point in favor of this theory: Darkness uses a larking to drain Lift's stormlight before killing her. This could just be to make it easier to keep her in custody, but maybe not... 3
marianmi Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 Maybe the stormlight just strengthens whatever material the plate is made from. So is not the stormlight, but stormlight + material. Else, why have plates? Since only surgebinders were supposed to wear them, and they would be protected when infusing?
don_karma_II he/him Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 Voidbringers can retain storm light perfectly and Shardblades were made to help KnightsRadiants fight Voidbringers who can infuse Stormlight and therefore are invested by at least one of the shards. Why make shard blades if they can't harm void bringers who can infuse storm light like Surgebinders?
Moogle Posted February 11, 2014 Author Posted February 11, 2014 Maybe the stormlight just strengthens whatever material the plate is made from. So is not the stormlight, but stormlight + material. Else, why have plates? Since only surgebinders were supposed to wear them, and they would be protected when infusing? Because metal is harder than your squishy flesh! The theory is not that it gives immunity, just some resistance. Shardplate also had other advantages - I've seen speculation that it enabled Radiants to not lose as much Stormlight to radiation. Voidbringers can retain storm light perfectly and Shardblades were made to help KnightsRadiants fight Voidbringers who can infuse Stormlight and therefore are invested by at least one of the shards. Why make shard blades if they can't harm void bringers who can infuse storm light like Surgebinders? Your source on Voidbringers having Stormlight is Szeth, who is not a very trustworthy source. As to Shardblades not harming Voidbringers, of course they can harm them. They just might have some resistance to being cut is all.
don_karma_II he/him Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 My only question with shard blades is "If a surge binder is cut with a shard blade will it also severe his connection in the cognitive realm? Will the shard blade also end up killing the spren he is bonded to?" Maybe it explains Syl's reaction to one. But I don't think Pattern is scared of Shallan's blade or is he not aware of her having one?
Kurkistan he/him Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 Spren bonds are Spiritual in nature (WoB, don't have to time to hunt down the link just now), so I don't think that question will bear much fruit.
PorridgeBrick he/him Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 But Shardblade cuts are also Spiritual, aren't they?
AerionBFII he/him Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 I'm interested in this Szeth vs Kaladin duel. kaladin is inexperienced szeth would send him flying A*s over tea cup.. don't get me wrong, kaladin is good but until he learns to use his powers properly he's no match for szeth.. even with out a shardblade Szeth is a beast with his lashings.. What i think will happen is Round 1 will go to Szeth but Kaladin will survive and Learn from it and mimic Szeth
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