Benefits of Multiple Magic Systems

[hula he/him]

I'm currently mid re-re-read of AoL, and I'm trying to pay as close attention to Wax and Wayne (not Miles as much since he doesn't really have too much screentime) both to see what sort of added benefit comes from being twinborn. I've been trying to figure out what they're doing that Allomancers from the Final Empire couldn't except for the added skill of exposure. With this, one thing I'm thinking is like how since AoL is in so much more of an industrial age, metal is far more prevalent in the city than was in the FE, so Wax would have significantly more exposure to metal- adjusting his Pushes, allowing him to be much more "graceful" and accurate with his pushes- so I don't really see that as the added benefit of having multiple magic systems.

The thing that's making me think, is from WoB (not sure if it was contraindicated when he announced the "revamping" of savanticism regarding Wax) that Wax isn't a savant in Allomancy or Feruchemy, but in the power/ability that he gained from having both... What is it? What is the benefit/byproduct that he is exceptionally skilled at?

Jumping to Roshar, when I went to a signing in Portland, I asked Brandon if Shallan's ability to have a photographic memory was because she was a Lightweaver, and he didn't say yes or no, but more alluded to the fact that her memory has a "supernatural component"... so more of a 'byproduct' of mixing magics.

So, my thought is... do we have any WoB or other evidence alluding to what we know about the individuals with multiple types of magics and their unique ability?

What is Wax's? Wayne? Kaladin? Shallan's (i believe) is the photographic memory... 

[Fezzik]

Kaladin's are squires.

[Pagerunner he/him]

People have been trying to get at Wax's and Wayne's for a while. Brandon said he hadn't completely narrowed it down yet, the way Wax's Resonance (the technical term) and Savantism would play off of each other. There's a topic floating around Cosmere Theories, from about a month or so ago, after the AU tour, with some in-depth discussion that happened via Reddit PM, I think.

Windrunners' aren't just having squires - there are some other Orders that have squires, although they don't all do. It's the number and power of squires that is the Windrunner's Resonance.

[Khyrindor he/him]

7 minutes ago, hula said:

The thing that's making me think, is from WoB (not sure if it was contraindicated when he announced the "revamping" of savanticism regarding Wax) that Wax isn't a savant in Allomancy or Feruchemy, but in the power/ability that he gained from having both... What is it? What is the benefit/byproduct that he is exceptionally skilled at?

So, Brandon has said that with Wax, his powers are becoming one to him. You see him become very skilled at Pushing, as well as increasing/decreasing his weight. I imagine he even does it without thinking (or narrating) sometimes, and only the times he really thinks about it get put in the text. Even though Brandon may be changing savantism a little bit, I'd still say Wax is a steel Savant. A couple things that support this: The steel bubble of his. He can Push all around him enough to not throw him off balance, and not Push any metal on him. We haven't seen Zane (a Mistborn with a spike that seals extra steel power) do that, nor Kelsier, who is described as a master of Pushing and Pulling.

I saw a theory I really liked about Wayne's Resonance recently, that it might be some form of immortality. His powers are gold healing, and speeding up time in a bubble around him, and the two of those together kind of smack of immortality. I also think it's been foreshadowed a little bit with his very kandra-like tendencies to mimic and method act (though Brandon has confirmed that they are natural), and with MeLaan saying "You are wasted as a human" and such. Honestly, I do ship them a bit, and I think that them getting into Worldhopping mischief is  great idea. But that's besides the point.

[hula he/him]

2 hours ago, john203 said:

Kaladin's are squires.

 

2 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

Windrunners' aren't just having squires - there are some other Orders that have squires, although they don't all do. It's the number and power of squires that is the Windrunner's Resonance.

In what sense are these squires? Is there some additional Rosharian/Cosmere meaning than just the traditional definition? I've not come across this term before Argent's question at the signing...

[Fezzik]

Yeah. At the end of WoR, lopen starts to heal his arm. This is because Windrunners get followers with minor stormlight abilities that are better than, say, a Stoneward's squire's abilities.

[Watcher of Truth]

Also mentioned near the ends of Words of Radiance:

“Kal,” Teft said, voice getting even softer. “At the end there, right before you arrived . . . Storms, son, I swear I saw a couple of the lads glowing. Faintly, with Stormlight.” “What?”“I’ve been listening to readings of those visions Brightlord Dalinar sees,” Teft continued. “I think you should do the same. From what I can guess, it seems that the orders of the Knights Radiant were made up of more than just the knights themselves.”

[Iniricean he/him]

Well, as we're talking about multiple magic system usage--Hoid is worth bringing up. How do his mixed abilities play into this?

[Oversleep]

5 minutes ago, Iniricean said:

Well, as we're talking about multiple magic system usage--Hoid is worth bringing up. How do his mixed abilities play into this?

We have a WoB that when you have many powers the Resonance ceases. That's why Twinborns have Resonances but Mistborn or Full Feruchemists do not.

[Weltall]

Yeah, here it is. Working from that, it's a safe assumption that Hoid has so many powers that he doesn't get any resonance perks.

[Iniricean he/him]

9 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

We have a WoB that when you have many powers the Resonance ceases. That's why Twinborns have Resonances but Mistborn or Full Feruchemists do not.

 

4 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Yeah, here it is. Working from that, it's a safe assumption that Hoid has so many powers that he doesn't get any resonance perks.

Oh, that makes sense. Thanks for explaining!

[Yezrien]

Here's the relevant quote:

Quote

I've worked under the premise that if you hold too many of the powers, like a Mistborn, the result is a loss of these little quirks. The mechanics of it are interesting, but I'll leave you to theorize on that sort of thing.

I think the term "resonance" is a clue. Magic powers are like musical notes -- keys on a piano. You can combine them to get chords, but if you hit too many at once, it's just noise. Not sure what that means realmatically, though.

It's funny to think that Wax and Wayne might develop abilities that even Rashek didn't have. It makes me wonder if there are people like Hoid, worldhoppers who can pick and choose from a dozen different magic systems, but limit themselves to two or three, specifically to keep some vital resonance.

[Landis963 he/him]

31 minutes ago, Belzedar said:

Here's the relevant quote:

I think the term "resonance" is a clue. Magic powers are like musical notes -- keys on a piano. You can combine them to get chords, but if you hit too many at once, it's just noise. Not sure what that means realmatically, though.

It's funny to think that Wax and Wayne might develop abilities that even Rashek didn't have. It makes me wonder if there are people like Hoid, worldhoppers who can pick and choose from a dozen different magic systems, but limit themselves to two or three, specifically to keep some vital resonance.

The realmatic effect is probably similar to the effect an especially high note might have on a wineglass (imperfect metaphor, I know, but still).  As the Investiture systems permeate the being wielding them, the "vibration" causes cracks to develop on the Spiritual.  Those cracks, translated to the Cognitive and Physical, result in what is called a resonance.  

[QuantumSpren]

Would Miles resonance just be compounding, or would he have something else?

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, QuantumSpren said:

Would Miles resonance just be compounding, or would he have something else?

Compounding is a hack of one system using another. I don't think that's his resonance, as it is usually unrelated to the magic systems which cause it.

[Weltall]

Compounding by itself can't be a resonance because we know too many powers means you don't get them and Mistborn are one of Brandon's examples of 'too many'. Despite that, the Lord Ruler could compound everything. So whatever Miles had as a resonance is different and probably subtle.

[Yata he/him]

As other said Compound isn't a Resonance, it's a mechanic generically possible that make two systems work together, it's not an "ability" written/expressed somewhere in the Spirit Web.

As a proof of "not Resonance" thesis:

- Fullborn (for WoB they have no Resonance) may performe it (same thing with Mistborn-Ferring and Misting-Feruchemist).

- A simple Misting may compound if someone provide him a unkeyed metalmind of his metal. And for definition a guy with a single power can't have a resonance.

Returning to Miles, someone thinks his Resonance wss the "painless" but I can't honestly agree with it. I suppose everyone exposed to many damage in his live may develop a "alteration of pain threesold". The pain is a safe reaction of the body, if the body "learns" that damage isn't dangerous...it may suppress the pain

[Fezzik]

Maybe his resonance was when he died, how he kept healing, even when they removed all his metalminds.

[Yata he/him]

23 minutes ago, john203 said:

Maybe his resonance was when he died, how he kept healing, even when they removed all his metalminds.

He has simply other metalmind inside of himself...They could not find it/them and a Chromium Ferring could not Leech it if Miles was not tapped it.

[Spoolofwhool]

5 hours ago, Yata said:

He has simply other metalmind inside of himself...They could not find it/them and a Chromium Ferring could not Leech it if Miles was not tapped it.

Chromium misting you mean? In any case, do leechers affect metalmind charges though?

[shadowwisp]

7 hours ago, Yata said:

Returning to Miles, someone thinks his Resonance wss the "painless" but I can't honestly agree with it. I suppose everyone exposed to many damage in his live may develop a "alteration of pain threesold". The pain is a safe reaction of the body, if the body "learns" that damage isn't dangerous...it may suppress the pain

Still I'm not sure if body would suppress pain to that level naturally, especially since there are so many different types of pain. I don't think it is a Resonance since he was originally able to feel pain.

Personally, I think he is a Savant of burning Feruchemic charged Gold.

If you can become a savant by burning the regular allomantic metals, I don't see why you can't become a savant of burning feruchemically charged metals, since you are in essence creating a new allomantic metal. And Miles is probably constantly burning. He doesn't even have to worry about metal poisoning. 

Edited February 5, 2017 by shadowwisp

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Chromium misting you mean? In any case, do leechers affect metalmind charges though?

We know they may affect metalmind. I think you may discharge a metalmind only if the subject is tapping/storing in the metamind in that moment but there is no an actual proof.
Much more Invested metal "consumes" more Chromium to be leeched (Investiture's Interference) so it's possible a Chromium Misting thought to have removed all the problems while there are still charge in him.

 

1 hour ago, shadowwisp said:

Personally, I think he is a Savant of burning Feruchemic charged Gold.

If you can become a savant by burning the regular allomantic metals, I don't see why you can't become a savant of burning feruchemically charged metals, since you are in essence creating a new allomantic metal. And Miles is probably constantly burning. He doesn't even have to worry about metal poisoning. 

I don't think you may become a Feruchemical Savant. You actually tap "something" already compatible with you and your being. Instead the Allomancy force an Investiture Stream forged into something foreing to standard Human.

[shadowwisp]

3 hours ago, Yata said:

I don't think you may become a Feruchemical Savant. You actually tap "something" already compatible with you and your being. Instead the Allomancy force an Investiture Stream forged into something foreing to standard Human.

Oh no, I didn't mean a Feruchemical Savant. I agree with you on that part. But for Miles to get the extra Feruchemical charge for healing, he would have to Allomantically burn Feruchemical gold first before storing it. Since that healing power is directly coming from Preservation instead of the self, it then would be possible to become a savant like with any other allomantic metal.

Not sure if I explained that well enough, did that make sense?

Edited February 5, 2017 by shadowwisp

[Yata he/him]

9 hours ago, shadowwisp said:

Not sure if I explained that well enough, did that make sense?

Yeah I alredy understood your point.

I don't think there is difference between regular Feruchemical Charge and Preservation's stream filtred by a Metalmind. When a compounder Compounds a metalmind. Preservation's power mimics a Feruchemical charge.

So at the end of all, "your" Feruchemical Charge and "Preservation"'s Feruchemical Charge is quite the same (notice that also your Feruchemical Charge is made basically of Preservation (& Ruin)'s Investiture).

As far as we know, Compounder didn't act differently by "simple" Feruchemist...they have a lot of charge avaliable and faster. But they could not do something not avaliable also to a standard Feruchemist.

I have also find this:

Quote

NICROSIL

Can you Compound to the point where you become a Savant?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, being a Savant is when you burn so much it alters your spirit, Compounding is similar but different

I think the last part is about "Compound like Savantism allows the user to get more from his magic"

[Spoolofwhool]

My opinion is that savantism is a result of investiture changing the vessel it is in so that the vessel can hold it more effectively. Since the properties investiture gives to an allomancer is not natural to the allomancer, there is an imperfect fit so the investiture, in high amounts, change the body. On the other hand, as Yata said, the attributes the feruchemical charge add to the body are natural aspects of the body, there is no strain. Therefore, no savantism occurs. This is the same reason why people holding large amounts of breath, at least Nalthians, aren't changed despite holding that much investiture, because the investiture and the vessel are suited for each other, so no changes need to be made.