bridgemenspren Posted February 1, 2017 Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 Hi all, I'm a pretty infrequent poster here, though occasionally I stop by and read what people share. I was thinking about the oaths of the windrunners, and something came to me, and I wanted to speculate about it here because I felt it had some merit. I think the last oath of the windrunners could be something like, "I will die for those I protect, if I must." My train of thought was of course this is the ultimate sacrifice and way to protect someone. And then it hit me. Honor was dead. What better way to exemplify what Honor did by following his example, and dying? I've always thought that poor Honor was killed by Odium. What if, instead, he sacrificed himself in order to protect Roshar from destruction? It not only makes Honor seem way cooler, but it just really fit. For me at least. And now that I'm speculating, what if the highstorms somehow protect the world (like cleaning it from voidspren or making such spren unable to carry out the will of their master)? Highstorms are almost always described as leaving the world clean, and I feel like they are also tied to Honor. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagerunner Posted February 1, 2017 Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 10 minutes ago, bridgemenspren said: I've always thought that poor Honor was killed by Odium. What if, instead, he sacrificed himself in order to protect Roshar from destruction? It not only makes Honor seem way cooler, but it just really fit. For me at least. And now that I'm speculating, what if the highstorms somehow protect the world (like cleaning it from voidspren or making such spren unable to carry out the will of their master)? Highstorms are almost always described as leaving the world clean, and I feel like they are also tied to Honor. Doesn't Dalinar's sequence of visions in WoK end with Honor telling him "I am dead. Odium has killed me"? Also, the Highstorms predated the arrival of Honor and Cultivation on the planet of Roshar. Their arrival did fundamentally change some aspects about the highstorm and the spren, but the Highstorm might go all the way back to Adonalsium (or even before, if there was an un-Invested storm before Adonalsium created the continent). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridgemenspren Posted February 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 1 hour ago, Pagerunner said: Doesn't Dalinar's sequence of visions in WoK end with Honor telling him "I am dead. Odium has killed me"? Also, the Highstorms predated the arrival of Honor and Cultivation on the planet of Roshar. Their arrival did fundamentally change some aspects about the highstorm and the spren, but the Highstorm might go all the way back to Adonalsium (or even before, if there was an un-Invested storm before Adonalsium created the continent). Yes, that's what I'm trying to say - I've always read that as Honor saying, "I was killed by Odium, because I failed." What if in reality Honor was killed by Odium because he willingly sacrificed himself, and that what he did somehow has protected Roshar? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissy Posted February 1, 2017 Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 Well, the Oathpact does protect Roshar in some way. It did not come about because of Honor's death however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+hwiles Posted February 1, 2017 Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 I don't have a problem with Windrunners having to swear an oath promising to fight to the death if necessary, but I do have trouble imagining how it would come up organically. The last few oaths Kaladin swore came to him at a time when they were particularly relevant to his situation. Like, he swore to "protect those who couldn't protect themselves" because that's literally what he was trying to accomplish. He swore to protect even those he hates so long as its the right thing to do after he came to that conclusion and did just that. I feel like it would be kinda messed up for the final initiation for joining the Windrunners to be something along the lines of: having to be put into a situation where you literally feel like you need to fight to the death or sacrifice yourself. Seems to me like that would be a violation of the first oath, but that's just my own speculation. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridgemenspren Posted February 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 True, it would be weird if your last oath then required you to die in that moment. But the thought that Honor wasn't killed because he failed, but rather sacrificed himself was compelling to me (and felt like an appropriate twist). And then for the windrunners to follow that also made sense. But how that could play out I do not know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissy Posted February 1, 2017 Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 No, oaths requiring death or anything similar make no sense. Life before Death are some of the most fundamental Words of every KR. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalaCrisp88 Posted February 1, 2017 Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 On the contrary, I like the idea someone else proposed that his last oath would be "I will protect myself before others" because he'd realize he can't save more people if he were dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridgemenspren Posted February 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 And yet, Honor himself failed at this, and with the Windrunner's spren being Honorspren, it seems contradictory. Though that concept does make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted February 1, 2017 Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 (edited) If there is an order including self-sacrifice within their personal oaths, then it is the Stonewards, I will stand, and not the Windrunners. This being said, I agree with hwiles above: having an oath which implies the knight to literally kill himself to protect someone kinda of defeats the purpose of the Nahel bond to begin with. Edited February 1, 2017 by maxal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAreNelson Posted February 2, 2017 Report Share Posted February 2, 2017 (edited) I think that an oath of giving your life for a wind runner fits well. I know the biggest counter argument is life before death aspect of the first oath, but I read it as life BEFORE death. Not life over death. I interpret that as living comes before dying but not that death is never a possibility. A wind runner choosing to put the lives of those he is protecting before his own death makes sense to me. Not that all wind runners have to die to reach their last oath, but that they have to be willing to. Just my two cents Edit: I don't actually think that will be the last oath or the fourth oath of a windrunner, I just think it is a valid theory. Edited February 2, 2017 by IAreNelson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridgemenspren Posted February 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, IAreNelson said: I think that an oath of giving your life for a wind runner fits well. I know the biggest counter argument is life before death aspect of the first oath, but I read it as life BEFORE death. Not life over death. I interpret that as living comes before dying but not that death is never a possibility. A wind runner choosing to put the lives of those he is protecting before his own death makes sense to me. Not that all wind runners have to die to reach their last oath, but that they have to be willing to. Just my two cents This is what I was thinking. You don't have to die to make the last oath/reach it, but you have to demonstrate a willingness. Also, as IAreNelson implied, Life Before Death means you do all you can to preserve life, but if by sacrificing yourself you preserve life for those you are protecting, I don't think there is a disagreement or a disobedience to your oath. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissy Posted February 2, 2017 Report Share Posted February 2, 2017 That's the part which the KR can interpret for themselves - as long as they act according to what their heart says, what "keeps them able to sleep at night" as Vasher put it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krandacth Posted February 2, 2017 Report Share Posted February 2, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, bridgemenspren said: And yet, Honor himself failed at this, and with the Windrunner's spren being Honorspren, it seems contradictory. Though that concept does make sense. I'd like to quickly pick up this point: There's a WoB (on my mobile, so can't easily find it, but it is thrown round this forum a lot) that many other kinds of Spren would also say that they are Honorspren. Syl basically means, therefore, that she is of the Shard Honor, but that doesn't mean she is literally a Spren of honorability (though she is a Spren of an honorable ideal). Windrunners necessarily don't emulate every aspect of Honor, therefore, just their particular ideal. I've always assumed that Bondsmiths are closest to directly emulating Honor's Intent with their ideals, because they are the most central on Honor's side of the Surgebinding chart. Anyway, continue. Edited February 2, 2017 by Krandacth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted February 2, 2017 Report Share Posted February 2, 2017 On 2/1/2017 at 2:13 PM, bridgemenspren said: I've always thought that poor Honor was killed by Odium. What if, instead, he sacrificed himself in order to protect Roshar from destruction? It not only makes Honor seem way cooler, but it just really fit. For me at least. This has always been my interpretation. I'm not sure if I have a basis for that belief, or if it's entirely my own interpretation. I imagine that Honor sacrificed himself in order to trap Odium. I think he hoped to survive the ordeal, but I imagine he figured his odds weren't great going into it. 21 hours ago, 8giraffe8 said: On the contrary, I like the idea someone else proposed that his last oath would be "I will protect myself before others" because he'd realize he can't save more people if he were dead. I like this. Or maybe just a simple, "I will protect myself." (i.e. cut "before others") Kaladin really does need to learn how to take better care of himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erandeni Posted February 2, 2017 Report Share Posted February 2, 2017 12 hours ago, Krandacth said: I've always assumed that Bondsmiths are closest to directly emulating Honor's Intent with their ideals, because they are the most central on Honor's side of the Surgebinding chart. I belive that too, but Jezrien is the Herald of kings and the leader of Heralds, so then the Windrunners might be closer to Honor. As for the oath I´ve always assumed that the oaths would be connected to the Divines Attributes of the Herald of the order, so the last oath of the Windrunner would be about leading, something like "I will lead to protect them" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erinzard Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 On 2/1/2017 at 2:13 PM, bridgemenspren said: "I will die for those I protect, if I must." I was thinking something more along the lines of "I will do what is right, no matter the cost". At least for Kaladin, this would mean he would give up his life to do the right thing (which he's demonstrated already) but it would also incorporate the ideas he's been struggling with about killing to protect others, and definitely that sometimes in the course of doing what is right those around him will have to suffer/die. He's been doing these things the whole time, but understanding the balance will make him into a stellar Windrunner and capable of teaching others the path of a KR. I think that this will also prevent any "Amyr/For the Greater Good" issues because he's not simply putting two situations on scale and saying "option A is reprehensible but it will mean less deaths in the long run than option B". Kaladin can say "option A is reprehensible, so I won't do it. I and others will bear a cost for this but it is right." I agree with the life before death not life above death sentiment above. Kaladin is beginning to see that death is the end for everyone, so surviving is not the ultimate measure of success for anyone. He didn't fail Tien, he didn't fail anyone that has died under his leadership, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 So far, Kaladin's oaths have been about disconnecting his actions from his feelings: he has to do what is right because it is right, not because his feelings dictate him to do so. It thus makes no sense to me his next oath would be about him "Protecting others to the cost of his life" as his oaths aren't about making a final stand, it is about doing the right thing as best of his abilities. He would fulfill nothing by dying and it would make his previous stance rather... pointless. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridgemenspren Posted February 11, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 (edited) This discussion has helped me see one more thing. Particularly what you said here Erinzard: Quote He's been doing these things the whole time, but understanding the balance will make him into a stellar Windrunner and capable of teaching others the path of a KR. Something that Kaladin doesn't seem to accept well is the fact that he cannot protect everyone, particularly his men. With evidence that his men are becoming Squires, he is going to need to see that while he needs to protect his men, he actually needs to teach them to protect others, and that together they will have to share the sacrifice of NOT protecting each other when it means they are doing the right thing, or protecting those who cannot protect themselves. It almost seems like the next logical step would be exactly like you said, "I will do what is right, no matter the personal cost," - even if that means allowing my men to sacrifice themselves, or choosing to protect someone I hate over someone I love, if the person I love can protect themselves (better) than the person I hate... I don't know how to summarize that thought short sentence, but if one could, it seems like it would be a good candidate for the next oath. Edited February 11, 2017 by bridgemenspren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blightsong Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 (edited) Yeah, the oaths proposed here just seem kind of redundant. Kaladin has already put himself in situations where he is likely to die to protect others multiple times. Edited February 12, 2017 by Blightsong 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galendo Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 6 hours ago, Blightsong said: Yeah, the paths proposed here just seem kind of redundant. Kaladin has already put himself in situations where he is likely to die to protect others multiple times. Pretty much this. All the other oaths we've seen have involved personal growth. This is presumably true for all the Radiants, though admittedly we've really only seen Kaladin and Dalinar pre- and post-Ideal. But the thing is, Kaladin doesn't need to achieve some sort of enlightenment about risking his life if necessary, he's been doing that since day one. If anything, I like the idea that one of his oaths will be about not risking himself all the time, about coming to grips with the fact that he can't do everything and save everyone all by himself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 I agree with both Blightsong and Galendo. I also feel the next oath should be more about him letting others take the lead, others take the risk, others save the day: in other words, I love if it were about delegating, about trust and about learning the first step towards being more protective is to have others learn how to protect themselves. He has been more or less doing it with Renarin, so it seems like the next logical step for him. This being said, if I am not mistaken, Brandon did say Kaladin was not saying another oath in Oathbringer, so we'll see. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blightsong Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) 30 minutes ago, maxal said: I agree with both Blightsong and Galendo. I also feel the next oath should be more about him letting others take the lead, others take the risk, others save the day: in other words, I love if it were about delegating, about trust and about learning the first step towards being more protective is to have others learn how to protect themselves. He has been more or less doing it with Renarin, so it seems like the next logical step for him. This being said, if I am not mistaken, Brandon did say Kaladin was not saying another oath in Oathbringer, so we'll see. I think Brandon said that we will see Kal's next oath in Oathbringer, but that it would be the last one we would see out of him for awhile. Edited February 12, 2017 by Blightsong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 9 minutes ago, Blightsong said: I think Brandon said that we will see Kal's next oath in Oathbringer, but that it would be the last one we would see out of him for awhile. Did he? I thought he said he wouldn't say an oath in Oathbringer... but honestly, I might remember it wrong. I would be unable to produce a quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blightsong Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 43 minutes ago, maxal said: Did he? I thought he said he wouldn't say an oath in Oathbringer... but honestly, I might remember it wrong. I would be unable to produce a quote. Likewise, I'm just relaying what I remember, but I'm pretty sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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