Shattering And Earthquakes

[Kinnsayyy]

So while doing a reread of WoR, Shallan wonders if an earthquake may have caused the shattering of the shattered plains. This made me think of the earthquake that happened in Elantris after Dominion and Devotion shattered. This seems like shattering a big correlation to me. Does the weapon Odium uses to shatter shards cause the earthquake? Also Elantris is one of the most important cities on Sel, where investiture is the strongest. Does this mean that Natanatan (before the shattering) was equally invested? 

[Pagerunner he/him]

Welcome to the Shard! The earthquake in Arelon that caused the Reod is a fairly recent event in the cosmere timeline, thousands of years after Odium splintered Dominion and Devotion. So, it wasn't caused directly by him, but it could have been an aftereffect. The splintering of Honor, however, seems to be a much more recent occurrence, since Dalinar's visions show the Radiants giving up their powers, an event remembered by the people of Roshar while the original deaths of Aona and Skai were in Selish prehistory.

Of particular note is the pattern to the Shattered Plains. Some of us find it reminscient of the cymatics that Kabsal showed Shallan about how the patterns mapped out several cities. That's probably the stronger connection - whatever vibrations caused the patterns that form the cities, could have been amplified at Stormseat to create the Shattered Plains.

So, yes, I think you make a good point when it comes to Stormseat possibly being destroyed because of a lot of Investiture. I don't think we can tie it back to Elantris, however, because we don't know exactly what caused the Chasm to form. (Although, it is interesting to note that the Fjordell prophecies say Jaddeth will rise from below the ground.) But it's a good idea, and a good parallel to note. I definitely agree that both are likely due to Odium's influence, if not through the exact same mechanism.

[Dunkum he/him]

I'd say the two are unrelated.  The shattered plains don't look the way they do because of a massive earthquake, we see in WoR that their appearance is caused by hundreds, if not thousands of years (I don't know the exact timeline) of crem accumulating on what once was a city. The plateaus are buildings (characters enter some of them in the book) that have been covered in so much crem that they no longer even look like buildings, and the chasms are the streets in between.

[Yezrien]

And for what it's worth, Elantris is an ancient city with a symmetrical layout, just like Roshar's Dawncities. It's a much simpler symmetry, but it fits the pattern. It makes me wonder if there is (or once was) a form-based magic system on Roshar -- something comparable to Selish magics, but with a rule that says all focus-symbols must be symmetrical. Like it's based on the abstract principle of symmetry, rather than local geography. There's not much evidence for any of this, but it would be a pretty cool explanation for why symmetry is sacred in Vorinism.

[Jedal he/him]

On 1/23/2017 at 3:13 PM, Pagerunner said:

Although, it is interesting to note that the Fjordell prophecies say Jaddeth will rise from below the ground.)

That makes me think Dominion. But there does seem to be a recurring pattern of, well, patterns in the cosmere. This fits with Sanderson's "scientific magic" where nothing exceeds the boundaries it was created with.

[Khyrindor he/him]

On 23/01/2017 at 2:26 PM, Dunkum said:

I'd say the two are unrelated.  The shattered plains don't look the way they do because of a massive earthquake, we see in WoR that their appearance is caused by hundreds, if not thousands of years (I don't know the exact timeline) of crem accumulating on what once was a city. The plateaus are buildings (characters enter some of them in the book) that have been covered in so much crem that they no longer even look like buildings, and the chasms are the streets in between.

Actually, the crem covered buildings that we saw in WoR were part of Stormseat, which was a much smaller city in the centre of the Shattered Plains. It would have to be a ridiculously huge city to span the entire plains. The Plains were shattered by the cymatics that @Pagerunner was talking about, which were most likely caused by the Oathgate at Stormseat. Whenever the Oathgate is activated, it causes vibrations that reverberate throughout the plains, which gives them their symmetrical pattern (This might be related to why the other Oathgates are now locked). Combine that with years of erosion from storms and crem build-up, and you have the plateaus.

On the original subject, I will echo others in saying that it is likely unrelated to the chasm that broke the aons. The Shattered Plains is a natural occurrence of the Oathgates, and the Chasm in Elantris was probably a purposeful attack by Jaddeth, or perhaps interference by the Dor, or maybe Hoid (as he was in the area at the time too). After all, as others have said, Devotion and Dominion being Splintered happened millennia ago, and the chasm was recent (Though Elantris was years ago compared to Way of Kings as well).

 

[Dunkum he/him]

2 hours ago, Khyrindor said:

Actually, the crem covered buildings that we saw in WoR were part of Stormseat, which was a much smaller city in the centre of the Shattered Plains. It would have to be a ridiculously huge city to span the entire plains. The Plains were shattered by the cymatics that @Pagerunner was talking about, which were most likely caused by the Oathgate at Stormseat. Whenever the Oathgate is activated, it causes vibrations that reverberate throughout the plains, which gives them their symmetrical pattern (This might be related to why the other Oathgates are now locked). Combine that with years of erosion from storms and crem build-up, and you have the plateaus.

On the original subject, I will echo others in saying that it is likely unrelated to the chasm that broke the aons. The Shattered Plains is a natural occurrence of the Oathgates, and the Chasm in Elantris was probably a purposeful attack by Jaddeth, or perhaps interference by the Dor, or maybe Hoid (as he was in the area at the time too). After all, as others have said, Devotion and Dominion being Splintered happened millennia ago, and the chasm was recent (Though Elantris was years ago compared to Way of Kings as well).

 

Do we have any evidence for any of that?  I've read WoR twice and I don't recall seeing anything that would indicate that the oathgates vibrate or that the plains were created by those cymatics vibrations.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

30 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

3 hours ago, Khyrindor said:

The Shattered Plains is a natural occurrence of the Oathgates, and the Chasm in Elantris was probably a purposeful attack by Jaddeth, or perhaps interference by the Dor, or maybe Hoid (as he was in the area at the time too).

Do we have any evidence for any of that?  I've read WoR twice and I don't recall seeing anything that would indicate that the oathgates vibrate or that the plains were created by those cymatics vibrations.

I have never heard anything of this relating to the Oathgates and Vibrations, so I will echo the request for a Source.

For you Dunkum: Shallan noticed that the Shattered Plains followed a pattern, which like Kasbal's demonstrations about the Dawncities, led us to Cymatics. As far as I know, we have yet to determine how the plains were broken in a cymatic way, but it is highly likely that they were.

Khyrindor: Most popular theory that I've seen has to do with the Dor being in a realm where space constraints are a thing, thus putting pressure on the land until.. boom.
However, I do not see how the Plains are a natural occurrence of the Oathgates. It just does not fit, as the other cities/areas that contain Oathgates are not shattered in the same way. I'd like to hear your logic on this though, as it seems like a good source of discussion

[Khyrindor he/him]

 

@The One Who Connects @Dunkum

I honestly don't remember a source for that, perhaps my mind is making it up, but I think it comes from Shallan's realization that the Plains are symmetrical/when she makes all those connections in the storm at the end. I'll go read through the passage and see if I can find anything. 

Also, on the other cities that you said aren't Shattered, aren't all the cities the cities Kabsal mentions Oathgate cities? I'm not sure if they're all confirmed, but it seems likely that they all would be, and the symmetricality of all those cities would only have the Oathgate in common. Now, why they aren't all broken, I can't say.  

Edit: found a quote.

Quote

"The plains are symmetrical," Kaladin said.

She froze. "How do you know that?"

"I...it was a dream. I saw the plateaus arrayed in a wide symmetrical formation."

She looked back at her map, then gasped. Sh began scribbling notes on the side. "Cymatics."

"What?"

"I know where the Parshendi are." Her eyes widened. "And the Oathgate. The center of the Shattered Plains. I can see it all--I can map almost the entire thing."

"He shivered. "You...what?"

She looked up sharply, meeting his eyes. "We have to get back."

"Yes. I know. The highstorm."

"More than that," she said, standing. "I know too much now to die out here. The Shattered Plains are a pattern. This isn't a natural rock formation." Her eyes widened further. "At the center of these Plains was a city. Something broke it apart. A weapon... Vibrations? Like sand on a plate? An earthquake that could break rock...Stone become sand, and at the blowing of the highstoms, the cracks full of sand were hollowed out."

Words of Radiance, kindle edition, page 847

This quote is when Shallan and Kaladin were in the chasms, mapping them out. Shallan seems convinced that the Plains being symmetrical had something to do with Cymatics. I don't know for sure if it is the Oathgate, but that's what's at the center. So, her theory seems to be that it was Cymatics causing earthquakes, which turned the stone into sand, which was in turn washed away by the storms. Perhaps the reason the Plains are more shattered than other Oathgate locations has to do with it being closer to the Origin?

Edited February 4, 2017 by Khyrindor
Quote added

[Dunkum he/him]

hmm, ok, yea, I guess I see where you are getting that from then.  I don't know.  I am still not 100% convinced (my own personal read was that the cymatics were the design for the cities, which were then built by people, though i'm not sure how well supported that is either), but I can definitely see how you get what you are saying from that passage.  I also forgot the part where Shallan specifically says that the city was at the center.

[Jondesu he/him]

18 hours ago, Khyrindor said:

I don't know for sure if it is the Oathgate, but that's what's at the center.

Actually, the Oathgate isn't dead center.  It's one of the plateaus she expected to be longer and skinnier to the south(?) of the center, which she identified since it broke the pattern. If it was dead center it wouldn't have affected the pattern.

[Spoolofwhool]

The way I see it is that there were the natural cymatic patterns in the rock, then the cities were built in them, along with the oathgates. This fits with Kabsal's reasoning that the touch of the Almighty was everywhere, else if the city had been constructed to fit the cymatic pattern, then the argument would've been completely invalid. At the same time, it seems really unlikely that the oathgates could've caused the patterns in the already built city, as that would've been hugely disruptive. Overall, this indicates to me that the oathgates don't cause earthquake problems.

[Jofwu he/him]

This seems to be a common point of disagreement/misunderstanding that I've seen. The books aren't absolutely clear. I asked once and got lots of answers on both sides.

@Dunkum, I thought the way you did at first, but I think there's quite a bit of evidence to the contrary. Though it's easy to miss. A few things...

1. Eshonai mentions (first or second interlude?) that Stormseat once occupied the center of the Shattered Plains. She then goes on to wonder if the craters where the Alethi are camped were outskirts of the city, or maybe even separate towns entirely. This all makes it hard to believe that the entirety of the plains made up the city, if Eshonai is correct.
2. Another point in this argument is the vast size of the plains. It takes hours for the armies to march out as far as the Tower plateau. Toss out all of the gear and the need for bridges and it would go faster, but the Tower is hardly a long ways into the journey to the center. It would quite a few hours to cross the plains if you move at a pretty rapid pace. The plains are just too large to be a single city. Heck, compare the plains on the map of Roshar to the locations of different cities. There are whole Alethi princedoms not much larger than the Plains.
3. And if the Shattered Plains make up a single city, you can't just pretend the edges are just the far outskirts of the city. The plains are pretty tall from one end to the other. Tall enough that you'll absolutely die if you fall down. This would imply that they are multistory buildings all the way across.
4. The elevations also don't match up. Doesn't make sense that the tops of the buildings on the outskirts would match up nicely with the surrounding terrain. Not unless Stormseat was a supermassive version of Yeddaw.
5. All of the mentions (or suggestions) of crem covered buildings are on top of the plateaus themselves. You'll notice a rock spire here or there, like the one Dalinar and Elhokar climb in the beginning- a rem covered tower of some kind. There's a battle that takes place on a strange stepped plateau- it's a building, or collection of closely spaced buildings. In the battle at the end of WoR, Adolin cuts his way into some ruins- they're on plateau level when this happens. You'll often see mentions of strange variations (hills, mounds, slopes, etc.) out on the plains. There's a notable mention that the plains become more rough like this as you move toward the center. These are the ruins that once occupied the Plains- not the plains themselves.
6. Lastly, a point about Kabsal's argument and the other Dawncities. We know from Dalinar that Kholinar isn't merely patterned after something. The city is built around some strange, magnificent rock formations. It's these formations that Kabsal's argument is referring to. They are what give Kholinar it's unique shape/layout. Assuming the same is true of the other cities, Stormseat wasn't just layed out in a pattern for aesthetics. It was somehow guided by the geology of the place.