Immortal Parshmen

[Shardlet]

I don't buy that. There's no sign that the Parshmen aren't capable of changing forms, beyond the fact that nobody mentions it. 

 

I disagree with you on this, Aminar.  I think that Jasnah and Shallan would have spoken of it already if the Parshmen changed to mateform.  This would be another feature that would totally freak the Alethi (and others) out if it occurred.  There is a very noticeable physical change that occurs with mateform and a very pronounced vibrance and personality to mateform that would absolutely not be unnoticed by their masters.  That is not to mention that the Parshmen would have to revert to no form after they were done mating.  It seems like this would be something that they would be unwilling to do.

 

 

If parshmen were immortal, then the parshendi would not have to struggle to find new forms, they would remember them. Keep in mind that the parshendi had only recently discovered new forms and had only had access to dull form since they fled from their dark gods. This means that parshmen can reproduce in forms other than mate form. Maybe it is just not as effective, like war form trying to paint.

 

That is a good point about memory of forms, Chlehrma.  I would also expect the Parshendi to have direct knowledge and experience with more than just two forms (dull and mate, not including no form) if they were functionally immortal.  However, it should be noted that Eshonai indicates that they have had knowledge of mateform for a very long time.  Nevertheless, I still agree with you they can mate in forms other than mateform.

[Aminar]

Assuming that the Parshmen do their breeding in a setting where they are observed. I don't think they do. Moreover, Pregnancy is a massive shapechange to begin with. The Parshmen changing differently to a culture with questionable scientific understanding wouldn't surprise me either. We just haven't seen enough of the Parshmen to know how they're handled as slaves. Hell, we haven't seen enough female slaves to know how they're handled as slaves either. Slavery seems to be a male only career path in Alethkar.

[Sh3phrd]

This is a very interesting thought, though I personally disagree, and for a very mundane reason actually.

Basically, parshmen are so anatomically similar to humans, that almost every difference is obvious and stated. They are described like slaves but without basic motivation or will. I just feel like something as drastically unhuman as a lack of aging would have been considered noteworthy.

Although it could be that the characters doing the describing are so used to it that they didn't feel it was worth mentioning.

It will be interesting is something comes of this

[soulcastJam]

Two thoughts...

 

1. It makes sense that the parshendi aren't breeding much during war.  It's hard to empathize with those who are slaughtering your people.

 

To find this form, one must care.
True empathy one must employ

 

2. Instead of breeding, could it be that there is a form of resurrection going on among the parshmen?  A similar thing happened on Scadrial...  Or possibly a very rapid maturation cycle where the child becomes an adult within a year.

Edited February 5, 2014 by soulcastJam

[Iarvos]

Based on the Eshonai interlude, I believe it is highly unlikely that the Parshendi are immortal. Eshonai specifically thinks about the elderly listeners! Why would there be elderly if they were immortal? 

 

Could the listeners’ salvation really be in something so terrible? Venli and her team had spent five years recording all of the songs, learning the nuances from the elderly*, capturing them in these pages. Through collaboration, research, and deep thought, they had discovered nimbleform.

 

Emphasis is mine. 

 

Note that this actually implies that there is a significant knowledge gap between the elderly listener population and the general listener population. This is a possible indicator that the listeners are long lived enough to live through significant changes in culture.

 

If the songs originated a thousand years ago, but the elderly were only 80 years old, then it is unlikely that large amounts of additional deterioration of the songs would have occurred in the past 70 years since the eldery learned the songs.

 

However the elders do have significant insight into the old songs, so they are old enough to have observed significant cultural change to the Listeners. If the elders are 200 years old, or 800 years old, or so on, then a significant amount of change could have occurred in the listener culture, and the elders would have special insight into the changes to the songs, and what the songs used to say. 

 

This is doubtful though, because we know that recent Listener culture HAS changed significantly in the relatively recent past. They've started to learn new forms, which must have a profound impact on their culture. Its possible in the excitement of learning new forms, they've forgotten to pass down the important songs to their children? 

 

In any case, the Listeners are very unlikely to be immortal. 

 

Edit: I wonder how warform was discovered! That seems to be a fairly odd form to randomly discover. Was Nimble form discovered before or after war form? Questions, so many questions. 

Edited February 5, 2014 by Iarvos

[Aminar]

I think they may have the crustacean Biological immortality I mentioned earlier, much like Wizards do in Dresden(perfect cell duplication). Despite the potential to never die it still won't happen, it will just extend their lifespan drastically. I say this because Brandon based ROshar on sea creatures, many of which have immense lifespans, far outstripping even the longest lived land animals.

[Shardlet]

If the songs originated a thousand years ago, but the elderly were only 80 years old, then it is unlikely that large amounts of additional deterioration of the songs would have occurred in the past 70 years since the eldery learned the songs.

 

I don't know.  It's these kids these days.  Odium take them for their lack of respect for our ways!

[Kadrok]

Based on the Eshonai interlude, I believe it is highly unlikely that the Parshendi are immortal. Eshonai specifically thinks about the elderly listeners! Why would there be elderly if they were immortal?

I'm not arguing that the Parshendi are immortal. I'm suggesting that Parshmen without a form have an indefinite lifespan. This is based on the fact that the Parshendi seem to need to breed to sustain their population and, as you have noted, age. If the Parshmen aged and died, like the Parshendi do, they'd need to be able to reproduce, and a change of forms, and particularly the acquisition of needs, wants and a personality that that entails, would be noteworthy to the Alethi, I would think.

 

So what I am suggesting is that in their proto-form (ie without a form) the race doesn't age. A formless listener can survive indefinitely, but I wouldn't exactly call it living.

 

In response to the suggestion that it would have been noted... why? Unformed Parshmen lack personality, or anything else that would set them apart; through Alethi eyes, all Parshemen look the same, how would they know the Parshmen serving their drinks (or whatever) is the same one who served their great great grandfather drinks? Add to that the fact that people are in the habit of ignoring their slaves, and specifically not identifying with their slaves, and I can see this particular feature of Parshmen being overlooked. If it isn't overlooked, it could easily be ignored. Afterall, it's not like it's an exciting immortality, being a workerbot and having no self. If we had a slave race of barely sentient robots, would we care that they could last longer than us, or would we take it for granted?

Edited February 10, 2014 by Kadrok

[Gloom]

I think it's pretty clear that the Parshedi have children.

 

 

That left only nimbleform, a general form that was lithe and careful. They used it for nurturing young and doing the kind of work that required more dexterity than brawn.

 

I find it difficult to believe that Parshmen don't. Slave form is a lack of form. It isn't work form, yet Parshmen work. It isn't nimbleform, yet parshmen are left to care for human children. This means that while slaveform is limited, it is capable of being coaxed into doing things aren't intrinsic to its nature. Procreation is a strong motivation in any successful species. If you can convince the Parshmen to work, then it shouldn't be beyond reason that they can be convinced to mate as well.