Vin& Elden vs. Wax&Wayne

[bdoble97]

I am only one book into the 2nd Mistborn set of books but I am loving Wax, Wayne and  Marasi. I have always been a bigger fan of epic swords and orcs typ of fantasy like Lord of the Rings, The Wheel of Time and SA. I much prefer the close combat of the massive armys fighting on a battle feild then lone gunslinger. But the idea of seeing the world 300 years after Vin and Elend is so cool. To me I picture Elendel as a 1930s Russian/ steampunk Gothic city type. I may be completely wrong but love of the the idea of this city. Also I love how Wax and Wayne are lawmen. Marasi reminds me of myself during my 1st semester of college takeing criminalnalige.  So i guess I want to know what set of books do you guys like more. I know Wax and Wayne still have one more book before thier story is over. But what you guys think.

[Gizmosowner he/him]

I prefer vin and Elend more then wax and Wayne but that may just be nostalgia. My one problem with the original trilogy is that if vin and Elend are doin the dirty how did she not get preggers? Did they just have extremely effective contraceptives or was Elend infertile due to hid noble blood

[Spoolofwhool]

21 minutes ago, Gizmosowner said:

I prefer vin and Elend more then wax and Wayne but that may just be nostalgia. My one problem with the original trilogy is that if vin and Elend are doin the dirty how did she not get preggers? Did they just have extremely effective contraceptives or was Elend infertile due to hid noble blood

Becoming pregnant isn't a guarantee if both people are fertile. They could've had some rudimentary contraceptives. I doubt Elend was infertile because he was noble since at that point skaa and noble had mixed enough that they original differences genetics that TLR created no longer existed. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

The nobles still had fewer children; this is mentioned. There does appear to be some sort of contraceptive; Alriane and Mare did not conceive during the series either (though Alriane clearly had children afterwards...) Also, as mentioned, two fertile partners does not automatically equal conception. Both were under stress and Vin was active enough and suffered enough physical trauma that she may well have had an early miscarriage she never knew of. Has anyone ever asked Brandon that?

[Oversleep]

Also, there wasn't that much time from their marriage to their deaths. About a year? I'm pretty sure not all marriages conceive a child during first year. Particularly when they have to deal with armies, monsters, gods, end of the world...

[bdoble97]

2 hours ago, Gizmosowner said:

I prefer vin and Elend more then wax and Wayne but that may just be nostalgia. My one problem with the original trilogy is that if vin and Elend are doin the dirty how did she not get preggers? Did they just have extremely effective contraceptives or was Elend infertile due to hid noble blood

I am a sucker for a good love story hahah. Always wanted them to have a kid. Before i finshed the original trilogy I was thinking that Vin and Elden descendants would be involved in the 2nd series of books. Just started Shadow of self  to day loving it. 

 

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The nobles still had fewer children; this is mentioned. There does appear to be some sort of contraceptive; Alriane and Mare did not conceive during the series either (though Alriane clearly had children afterwards...) Also, as mentioned, two fertile partners does not automatically equal conception. Both were under stress and Vin was active enough and suffered enough physical trauma that she may well have had an early miscarriage she never knew of. Has anyone ever asked Brandon that?

Thats is a wicked good question all the fighting that Vin was involved in there is no question that she could of had a miscarriage. But I think Vin would of felt somthing diffrent when she was burning hwr metals

[The One Who Connects he/him]

I swear that I remembered reading a WoB about how her not getting pregnant during their time together was evidence that contraceptives were known and used during Era 1, but for the life of me, I cannot find it.

[Oversleep]

51 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I swear that I remembered reading a WoB about how her not getting pregnant during their time together was evidence that contraceptives were known and used during Era 1, but for the life of me, I cannot find it.

Now that you mentioned it, I remember something like that was stated somewhere. Annotations maybe?

[Spoolofwhool]

I read through all the annotations for WoA and HoA and didn't see anything about contraceptives. Nothing on Theoryland either. 

I did find this post which quotes Brandon saying there was birth control on Scadrial which is why Vin didn't get pregnant. However, there isn't a source listed and the WoB doesn't appear to be on Theoryland.

Quote

17th Shard:

Jordan also asks, "Are there forms of birth control on Scadrial?"

 

Brandon:

Yes, there are. Witness, Vin and Elend not getting pregnant across several years.

 

17th Shard:

Right. It's just not really mentioned in the books.

 

Brandon:

Yeah. I stay away from that intentionally. There are a lot of things I just didn't discuss due to the the feel of that book.

 

Edited January 15, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[luckat she/her]

50 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I read through all the annotations for WoA and HoA and didn't see anything about contraceptives. Nothing on Theoryland either. 

I did find this post which quotes Brandon saying there was birth control on Scadrial which is why Vin didn't get pregnant. However, there isn't a source listed and the WoB doesn't appear to be on Theoryland.

 

It looks like that quote is from this interview, about 4/5 of the way down.

Actually, that interview is on Theoryland here, except a segment of it (including this question) wasn't added. Maybe that's something @WeiryWriter should know about.

[bdoble97]

1 hour ago, Ernei said:

1) It's not as easy to get pregnant as you probably presume. Sometimes it may take years, depending on the couple; I know a woman who had to try for a baby for eight years before she finally gave birth (all naturally, due to religious reasons). Anyways, it's not that if you lay with somebody once or twice then ofc you'll get pregnant.

2) There are natural methods of contraception, like counting days and having sex only on the chosen ones. They are actually quite effective unless you rush things or forget to do the math one day. Since nobles where apparently well educated, it's possible that they knew at least these methods if not other ones.

 

As about the thread's topic, well. Elend is on the top of my favorite characters from Cosmere list, so ofc I liked Vin and Elend better  I like Wax and Wayne too, but just not so much, and "Bounds of Morning" particularly was a let-down for me.

I love a good love story. I guess I'm a big softy so loved Elden and Vin but Dalinar Kholin definitely my favorite character from the cosmere. I just love Wax and Wayne probably bc I have been in law enforcement for 10years now I really like the lawman aspect in this book. I usaly only read epic fantasy or scfi so I dont see to much "cop" stuff in the books I read. I  just ordered Bounds of Morning today so you saying that it was a let down worries me I am about 150 pgs into Shadows of Self and I am loving it. 

[bdoble97]

5 minutes ago, Ernei said:

Well, for me the disappointment was that "Bounds" doesn't really have a criminal thread, and instead is more like Indiana Jones. It's not to say the book was bad, it's still Sanderson and has a few surprises, but it was less to my taste than the previous two books with Wax and Wayne.

Ok still sounds interesting.  Thanks

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

5 hours ago, Ernei said:

1) It's not as easy to get pregnant as you probably presume. Sometimes it may take years, depending on the couple; I know a woman who had to try for a baby for eight years before she finally gave birth (all naturally, due to religious reasons). Anyways, it's not that if you lay with somebody once or twice then ofc you'll get pregnant.

2) There are natural methods of contraception, like counting days and having sex only on the chosen ones. They are actually quite effective unless you rush things or forget to do the math one day. Since nobles where apparently well educated, it's possible that they knew at least these methods if not other ones.

2 only works if you have a regular cycle. And between her age and the stress they were under, I don't think Vin's was. I find it more likely that she was using some sort of herbs to prevent pregnancy.

 

4 hours ago, bdoble97 said:

I love a good love story. I guess I'm a big softy so loved Elden and Vin but Dalinar Kholin definitely my favorite character from the cosmere. I just love Wax and Wayne probably bc I have been in law enforcement for 10years now I really like the lawman aspect in this book. I usaly only read epic fantasy or scfi so I dont see to much "cop" stuff in the books I read. I  just ordered Bounds of Morning today so you saying that it was a let down worries me I am about 150 pgs into Shadows of Self and I am loving it. 

Bands of Mourning is one of my favorite Sanderson books, simply because it was so much fun to read. It was a nice contrast to SoS (I read them back to back.) After the seriousness of SoS, BoM was a needed breath of fresh air. I've actually reread it several times and I don't usually reread books. It still makes me laugh, even as I search for all those Cosmere goodies (and there are a surprising number.)

i suppose I look at it differently because I read the two back to back. Alloy is a blend of humor and seriousness; SoS is probably the most emotionally wrenching, while BoM is the most fun and least serious - which, I feel, is needed after SoS. I suspect TLM will be closer in tone to Alloy, but that's just a guess.

[bdoble97]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

2 only works if you have a regular cycle. And between her age and the stress they were under, I don't think Vin's was. I find it more likely that she was using some sort of herbs to prevent pregnancy.

 

Bands of Mourning is one of my favorite Sanderson books, simply because it was so much fun to read. It was a nice contrast to SoS (I read them back to back.) After the seriousness of SoS, BoM was a needed breath of fresh air. I've actually reread it several times and I don't usually reread books. It still makes me laugh, even as I search for all those Cosmere goodies (and there are a surprising number.)

i suppose I look at it differently because I read the two back to back. Alloy is a blend of humor and seriousness; SoS is probably the most emotionally wrenching, while BoM is the most fun and least serious - which, I feel, is needed after SoS. I suspect TLM will be closer in tone to Alloy, but that's just a guess.

BOM is sounding etter to me the more i read the comments.  Indiana Jones Style, with youbsaying a good amount of cosmere stuff. Sounds wicked good. Im nevusre nkw with you saying SOS is emoto ally wrenching some is going to die. I amd about 150pgs into it and I am just loving all the characters so I know ill be pissed whem one big 3 dies if they do. 

[cometaryorbit]

I always kind of assumed Vin had messed up her metabolism with all the toxic metals (pewter and such)...

[Savanorn he/him]

On 1/15/2017 at 6:09 AM, bdoble97 said:

I am only one book into the 2nd Mistborn set of books but I am loving Wax, Wayne and  Marasi. I have always been a bigger fan of epic swords and orcs typ of fantasy like Lord of the Rings, The Wheel of Time and SA. I much prefer the close combat of the massive armys fighting on a battle feild then lone gunslinger. But the idea of seeing the world 300 years after Vin and Elend is so cool. To me I picture Elendel as a 1930s Russian/ steampunk Gothic city type. I may be completely wrong but love of the the idea of this city. Also I love how Wax and Wayne are lawmen. Marasi reminds me of myself during my 1st semester of college takeing criminalnalige.  So i guess I want to know what set of books do you guys like more. I know Wax and Wayne still have one more book before thier story is over. But what you guys think.

My 2 cents?

Wax and Wayne are boring. Worse, they rarely feel like people. I mean, maybe characters, but not really...original ones? Like they are the first Sanderson characters I really disliked at first, and still didn't really like by the end. I kinda feel like like Sanderson sat back and went, "I'll have two stock standard characters, one will be a tough lawman, the other will be his funny comic relief sidekick....I'll call them...Wax and Wayne, yeah." For one, I get really tired of how stupidly killy Wax is. Like, there's scenes where he just sorta ploughs through handfuls of people with no real sense of danger. The series does get better, but even Steris and Marasi feel like cutouts half the time. It's only come BoM that the characters feel alive and it starts to feel like a Mistborn book again.    

Wayne is actually good at times -funny and such- but he never really feels like a real character and his gun thing just comes across tacked on. 

The setting in general is cool, and it's really great to see the world progress and be expanded from Era 1, but the characters are undoubtedly lesser.  

Vin is amazing, putting aside the fact that she feels like a real person who almost always has tangible reasons for what she does...she's maybe one of the best characters in literature. I like that she's this dynamic mix of shrewd, vulnerable and insanely capable and unlike many characters, she steadily grows and evolves over her three books. When Sazed said she was the person most worthy of Preservation's power he is right on. 

Elend is a really solid character in his own right, especially to examine him from TFE to HoA. 

[bdoble97]

6 hours ago, Savanorn said:

My 2 cents?

Wax and Wayne are boring. Worse, they rarely feel like people. I mean, maybe characters, but not really...original ones? Like they are the first Sanderson characters I really disliked at first, and still didn't really like by the end. I kinda feel like like Sanderson sat back and went, "I'll have two stock standard characters, one will be a tough lawman, the other will be his funny comic relief sidekick....I'll call them...Wax and Wayne, yeah." For one, I get really tired of how stupidly killy Wax is. Like, there's scenes where he just sorta ploughs through handfuls of people with no real sense of danger. The series does get better, but even Steris and Marasi feel like cutouts half the time. It's only come BoM that the characters feel alive and it starts to feel like a Mistborn book again.    

Wayne is actually good at times -funny and such- but he never really feels like a real character and his gun thing just comes across tacked on. 

The setting in general is cool, and it's really great to see the world progress and be expanded from Era 1, but the characters are undoubtedly lesser.  

Vin is amazing, putting aside the fact that she feels like a real person who almost always has tangible reasons for what she does...she's maybe one of the best characters in literature. I like that she's this dynamic mix of shrewd, vulnerable and insanely capable and unlike many characters, she steadily grows and evolves over her three books. When Sazed said she was the person most worthy of Preservation's power he is right on. 

Elend is a really solid character in his own right, especially to examine him from TFE to HoA. 

Man i cant disagree with you more. I love Wax and Wayne I finished book Alloy of Law in two days and it's only 300 something pages but I couldn't  put that book down. With Vin it took my 3 separate time to even finsh The Final Empire and took a long brake and read most of the other cosmere book before I started The Final Empire for the 3rd time.  I guess Wax and Wayne  just speak to me having a father that was a detective for 35 years and myself being in law enforcement for the past 10 years the character arw familiar to me with a cool epic fantasy twist to it. I was not a fan of Eldelin at all until halfway through Wells of Ascension but loved him in Hero of Ages.  It is so cool to see the world progress in the 300 years. I believe Brandon has said that the next series he wants to be in the eighties I hope the world as a Gotham City of the Tim Burton Batman movies to it. 

[Andy92]

I like both eras for different reasons. The original trilogy is more of the traditional style of fantasy that I love to read about. I think the original trilogy had more depth to it. I think the Wax and Wayne books are obviously more casual overall. There's a lot of humor in those books, and I think they're overall just enjoyable to read. I prefer the original trilogy even though both eras are good for what they try to be. 

[Oversleep]

10 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I always kind of assumed Vin had messed up her metabolism with all the toxic metals (pewter and such)...

Allomancers don't get metal poisoning - I mean, they could, but only if they swallowed a metal and never burned it.

[Savanorn he/him]

13 hours ago, bdoble97 said:

Man i cant disagree with you more. I love Wax and Wayne I finished book Alloy of Law in two days and it's only 300 something pages but I couldn't  put that book down. With Vin it took my 3 separate time to even finsh The Final Empire and took a long brake and read most of the other cosmere book before I started The Final Empire for the 3rd time.  I guess Wax and Wayne  just speak to me having a father that was a detective for 35 years and myself being in law enforcement for the past 10 years the character arw familiar to me with a cool epic fantasy twist to it. I was not a fan of Eldelin at all until halfway through Wells of Ascension but loved him in Hero of Ages.  It is so cool to see the world progress in the 300 years. I believe Brandon has said that the next series he wants to be in the eighties I hope the world as a Gotham City of the Tim Burton Batman movies to it. 

We evidently have rather different tastes, but hey, it takes all sorts of fruit to make a salad.

[goody153]

I liked different things from original trilogy's Vin+Elend and sequels WaxnWayne.(the original trilogy had more serious vibes for me while the wax&wayne was more adventury and detectivey) Though i do prefer the original trilogy pair mostly because i liked the trilogy more but i found Wax and Wayne ALOT funnier.

I knew that Vin era wasn't entirely medieval-ish (for having canning system and watches) but i didn't know that contraceptives existed during those times. I just assumed that Vin and Elend never had children due to probably them not having a very frequent sexlife(You know both of them being Mistborn and Ruler as well as them i assume being deadtired most of the time if their sexual intercourse happen before bedtime) and also the stress from pushing their physical capacity(especially Vin with combat and having more Mistborn time than Elend) and just mental stress in general with keeping the kingdom intact.

Edited January 17, 2017 by goody153

[Spoolofwhool]

5 minutes ago, goody153 said:

i assume being deadtired most of the time if their sexual intercourse happen before bedtime)

Burning pewter solves that problem though.

 

[goody153]

1 minute ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Burning pewter solves that problem though.

 

Afaik pewter merely delays exhaustion though. And something about them burning all their metal reserves before sleeping so that they don't get poisoned so the moment they dropped pewter the physical exhaustion takes full effect. 

[Gizmosowner he/him]

The only way I see pewter running out is if the were in the middle of doing the dirty and ended up flaring it and maybe also some tin to.... Enhance the senses.....

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

This discussion has become pretty wierd...

Anyway, I do like Vin and Elend more than Wax and Wayne. I find them more complex, and simply better characters. Elends fears of becoming the Lord Ruler was awesome, for example.

I also know that a bunch of readers, me included, identifies with FE Elend, and that most likely adds to his character.

I love Wax and Wayne, but Wayne does not really seem that realistic of a character at all times. Wax was pretty boring in AoL but he got better in SoS. 

Still the cant beat Vin and Elend.