The Invested Beard Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 So this is something that just sort of popped into my head, so it's not fully fleshed out, but hear me out. What if Autonomy hasn't been just working with Odium (if you accept the Autonomy = Trell theory and the recent WoB's that state Autonomy is getting involved in other systems), but that She/He (DRAGON! because of the weird switching sexes thing some amphibians/reptiles can do) is actually the one pulling the strings and is using Odium's power to splinter shards? Think about this: What could be more in line with the intent of Autonomy than separating power from those who hold it, i.e. splintering shards away from their Vessels? Autonomy cannot be truly achieved until no one has power over you, and most Vessels/Shards are exhibiting some sort of control over the less powerful beings in their systems. Thoughts? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 That would be interesting. However, if Autonomy's goal is to prevent Shards having control over less powerful beings, one would think Harmony would be one of the last targeted, because he is so non-interventionist and so powerful. He helps Wax out a bit, but doesn't do anything as overt as Endowment Returning people or Odium causing Desolations. Given that Endowment is alone and more active, it's odd she hasn't been Splintered... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects he/him Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 42 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said: Given that Endowment is alone and more active, it's odd she hasn't been Splintered... Odium was afraid that R&P could combine, he took out D&D on Sel, Roshar has Honor & Cultivation.. Ambition is the only target he went after that wasn't on a world with another Shard. We can excuse that because "Ambition" would be an issue to deal with, so he took them out first (or tried to, they eluded him until after Odium hit Sel) Endowment isn't a target because she is content to just have Nalthis to herself. No other Shards to combine with, little to no interest in Cosmeric expansion. I'm sure she'll become a target eventually, but that requires Odium to escape from Roshar and either deal with Harmony first or ignore Harmony in favor of the person who is arguably the weakest living Shard we know of, actively giving Splinters of their power to normal beings. Maybe it's just me, but I would rather take on the giant than deal with a swarm of ants, no matter how harmless they might be in the grand scheme of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagerunner he/him Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 A single word, especially a vague one like Autonomy, can be interpreted in many different ways. I haven't yet heard a definition of Autonomy's Intent that I like, so when you ask what would fit best with Autonomy, I think we need to go a step back and actually elaborate on what Autonomy means in this context. Best we can tell, Intents describe how Shards interact with the world and with others. Ruin wants to bring things to an end, Preservation wants to keep things going, Honor makes and keeps promises, Endowment gives Breath to the people of her world. It doesn't look to me like the Shard of Autonomy is primarily concerned with how other people are autonomous, but she herself is autonomous. We've seen a lot of what Odium has done (killed other Shards), Honor (Oathpact), Ruin/Preservation, so they provide a lot of context to the meaning behind their Intent. For Autonomy, not so much. What have we seen of Bavadin's actions? Started a bunch of religions on a bunch of different worlds Sand Lord in Kerztian theology wants the destruction of the Sand Masters (Possibly combine the previous two points, Austrism may be one of her religions, and it calls Awakening blasphemy) Helped in some way to the Shattering of Dominion/Devotion (the questioner emphasized "in any way" when asking Brandon, so this may be a very indirect form of help) So, you can make a case that Autonomy's intent primarily has to do with freeing people from the influence of Shards: making up new religions to take them away from their Shards, Shattering Shards, and promoting the abandonment of magic. This is similar, but not identical, to Odium's goal, where he wants to be the only Shard left in the cosmere. Autonomy wants to go a step farther, and have there be no Shards, so they could be working together to kill every other Shard first, and then see who survives the last battle between the two of them. Another name for this interpretation of Autonomy's intent might be 'Free Will,' which could be opposed to a possible interpretation of Dominion where the Shard is in charge of everything. Another possibility which I've been toying with comes from the Chronicles of Narnia: 'He's not a tame lion.' Autonomy might be an internal mandate, to do what the Shard wants, and don't let anyone stop her. Whenever she thinks of something new, she manifests it as a new religion. Whenever someone crosses her, they're on the list for destruction. The Vessel herself is granted a great deal of autonomy, not shaped and molded by the Intent of the Shard as some others we've seen. This doesn't inform her apparent actions against Harmony quite as well as the first possibility, but I think it's still a reasonable line of thinking. So, at the end of the day, I think I agree with you, but I'll emphasize that destroying other Shards may be Autonomy's primary goal, to have no overt Shardic influence on any planets (including her own). (As a side not, next time I'm at a signing, this topic of Intents is probably going to be the only thing I ask about, to try to understand more of the Intents we've had named but not seen anything of, like Autonomy, Ambition, and Dominion.) 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Invested Beard Posted January 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 7 minutes ago, Pagerunner said: A single word, especially a vague one like Autonomy, can be interpreted in many different ways. I haven't yet heard a definition of Autonomy's Intent that I like, so when you ask what would fit best with Autonomy, I think we need to go a step back and actually elaborate on what Autonomy means in this context. Best we can tell, Intents describe how Shards interact with the world and with others. Ruin wants to bring things to an end, Preservation wants to keep things going, Honor makes and keeps promises, Endowment gives Breath to the people of her world. It doesn't look to me like the Shard of Autonomy is primarily concerned with how other people are autonomous, but she herself is autonomous. We've seen a lot of what Odium has done (killed other Shards), Honor (Oathpact), Ruin/Preservation, so they provide a lot of context to the meaning behind their Intent. For Autonomy, not so much. What have we seen of Bavadin's actions? Started a bunch of religions on a bunch of different worlds Sand Lord in Kerztian theology wants the destruction of the Sand Masters (Possibly combine the previous two points, Austrism may be one of her religions, and it calls Awakening blasphemy) Helped in some way to the Shattering of Dominion/Devotion (the questioner emphasized "in any way" when asking Brandon, so this may be a very indirect form of help) So, you can make a case that Autonomy's intent primarily has to do with freeing people from the influence of Shards: making up new religions to take them away from their Shards, Shattering Shards, and promoting the abandonment of magic. This is similar, but not identical, to Odium's goal, where he wants to be the only Shard left in the cosmere. Autonomy wants to go a step farther, and have there be no Shards, so they could be working together to kill every other Shard first, and then see who survives the last battle between the two of them. Another name for this interpretation of Autonomy's intent might be 'Free Will,' which could be opposed to a possible interpretation of Dominion where the Shard is in charge of everything. Another possibility which I've been toying with comes from the Chronicles of Narnia: 'He's not a tame lion.' Autonomy might be an internal mandate, to do what the Shard wants, and don't let anyone stop her. Whenever she thinks of something new, she manifests it as a new religion. Whenever someone crosses her, they're on the list for destruction. The Vessel herself is granted a great deal of autonomy, not shaped and molded by the Intent of the Shard as some others we've seen. This doesn't inform her apparent actions against Harmony quite as well as the first possibility, but I think it's still a reasonable line of thinking. So, at the end of the day, I think I agree with you, but I'll emphasize that destroying other Shards may be Autonomy's primary goal, to have no overt Shardic influence on any planets (including her own). (As a side not, next time I'm at a signing, this topic of Intents is probably going to be the only thing I ask about, to try to understand more of the Intents we've had named but not seen anything of, like Autonomy, Ambition, and Dominion.) Yeah I'm thinking that maybe Odium isn't the only one splintering Shards. Not only is she helping him do it, she may be directly responsible for others that we either don't know about yet, or some that aren't directly tied to Odium yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yurisses Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 11 minutes ago, Pagerunner said: So, you can make a case that Autonomy's intent primarily has to do with freeing people from the influence of Shards: making up new religions to take them away from their Shards, Shattering Shards, and promoting the abandonment of magic. This is similar, but not identical, to Odium's goal, where he wants to be the only Shard left in the cosmere. Autonomy wants to go a step farther, and have there be no Shards, so they could be working together to kill every other Shard first, and then see who survives the last battle between the two of them. Another name for this interpretation of Autonomy's intent might be 'Free Will,' which could be opposed to a possible interpretation of Dominion where the Shard is in charge of everything. I think this is exactly what's happening. It explains why Bavadin blocks entry into Taldain (as Shards may want to influence other planets through worldhopping envoys), and why he involves himself much more offworld than on Taldain, according to Khriss's essays if I recall right. He gets involved, to reduce all Shardic involvement. I like the idea that Odium is a red herring for Autonomy as an end-game or later-game villain. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissy Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 Only one problem. Autonomy's goal of no Shards makes no sense; its Intent would be entirely suicidal. I do not believe a Shard would have a directly suicidal Intent, therefore this can not be Autonomy's intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Invested Beard Posted January 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Rob Lucci said: Only one problem. Autonomy's goal of no Shards makes no sense; its Intent would be entirely suicidal. I do not believe a Shard would have a directly suicidal Intent, therefore this can not be Autonomy's intent. Not necessarily. Who's to say at the end of removing all of the rest of the shards from existence she doesn't just splinter herself? Maybe she's figured out a way to sever the connection without it being fatal to herself. Edited January 5, 2017 by The Invested Beard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissy Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 That, I believe, is ignoring what a Shard is. A Shard's Intent corrupts its wielder. Why would a Shard have a directly suicidal Intent? And how would Bavadin be able to retain her mental premises so completely as to go against the very survival instinct within the Shard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu he/him Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Pagerunner said: promoting the abandonment of magic This seems doubtful to me considering Taldain has magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Invested Beard Posted January 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 6 minutes ago, Rob Lucci said: That, I believe, is ignoring what a Shard is. A Shard's Intent corrupts its wielder. Why would a Shard have a directly suicidal Intent? And how would Bavadin be able to retain her mental premises so completely as to go against the very survival instinct within the Shard? I would say due to the intent of the Shard itself, she may have retained more of her autonomy and individuality than others. Thus she could have in the back of her mind a plan (nudged into existence by Autonomy's intent) to rid the Cosmere of all Shardic influence once and for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects he/him Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 48 minutes ago, Rob Lucci said: Only one problem. Autonomy's goal of no Shards makes no sense; its Intent would be entirely suicidal. I do not believe a Shard would have a directly suicidal Intent, therefore this can not be Autonomy's intent. I think you are reading it too narrowly, as we all have in the past. No Shards would be a suicidal intent yes. But No Shardic Influence wouldn't be. All of the speculation about Autonomy being Taldain's Star helps with this idea. Once all of the pesky interfering Shards are taken care of, Bavadin can just take a vacation to the star and let the Cosmere do what it feels like doing. She wouldn't be directly involved with anything at that point, and can fulfill that interpretation of her intent without being suicidally inclined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Invested Beard Posted January 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 One other thing: I think it would be extremely fitting for the ultimate bad guy in Brandon's overarching work to be someone who wants to get rid of all sources of magic systems in the Cosmere. I mean what better antagonist for a writer who started writing what he writes because he loves awesome magic systems. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagerunner he/him Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 18 minutes ago, Rob Lucci said: That, I believe, is ignoring what a Shard is. A Shard's Intent corrupts its wielder. Why would a Shard have a directly suicidal Intent? And how would Bavadin be able to retain her mental premises so completely as to go against the very survival instinct within the Shard? What, exactly, is a Shard? The Shard of Odium is described as "God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context." Replace 'hatred' with 'the desire for people to have free will' (which probably has a theological term for it out there somewhere, but I can't come up with it), and that's how I'm viewing Autonomy. Driven to the extreme of no Shardic influence at all in the cosmere, polish off the rest of the Shards, then disappear (or Descend, even). 10 minutes ago, jofwu said: This seems doubtful to me considering Taldain has magic. There is magic, but a major religion on the planet views it as an abomination. Why would Autonomy have Invested in the first place, to cause a magic system? Maybe the Shards get something out of Investing in a system. If she Invested in the sun, as some people think, then maybe she wasn't expecting a magic system to manifest on Taldain at all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) If I don't remember wrong a Shard's Intent doesn't appy to himself. It's the reason preservation may sacrifice himself, the reason Ruin didn't kill himself while he can't reach other target and something like that. On the note of Endowment and his weakening hersef. Divine Breath are still part of her, her power is not diminished by creating some Splinter (unlike Ruin's power stolen by Preservation), we have a WoB that explains it well with Honor (and Cultivation)'s Spren Edited January 5, 2017 by Yata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects he/him Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 18 minutes ago, Yata said: On the note of Endowment and his weakening hersef. Divine Breath are still part of her, her power is not diminished by creating some Splinter (unlike Ruin's power stolen by Preservation), we have a WoB that explains it well with Honor (and Cultivation)'s Spren I meant it more in the sense of her power being more.. spread out, rather than consolidated within her being, if that makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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