Any more Mistborn?

[Demiandre]

@Inquisitor #5, @Spoolofwhool yes, I meant a human attribute, but maybe you were just agreeing that it is feasible ?

@Eki

Spoiler

Yes, but as the Lost Metal, I figured it concerned a known Metal which isn't found or known anymore. Harmonium is used by the southerner, and exist only since the Final Ascension, so it hasn't been Lost yet.

 

[Spoolofwhool]

2 minutes ago, Jedal said:

I don't really think of it in terms of genetics. To me it seems like there is a specific amount of "space" alloted for a single person. While the majority is filled by personality and physical features, some parts can be filled with Investiture. Rashek was naturally Invested with Feruchemy, and "added" more space when he became a Sliver(his spirit web was expanded). So, in theory, if someone has the potential to be a Fullborn, but is without the space, the addition of a spren would increase the space, allowing for a person to be Fullborn and Surgebinder.

Stormlight Archive

Spoiler

That still wouldn't work I don't think, because while yes, the spren is adding space, that space is then being allotted for whatever changes the spren is enacting on the person, and I don't see them just adding extra room for no reason. Even then, you would still need to somehow artificially induce the change to obtain the power you were missing, at which point you probably could've done the spiritweb expansion then as well. 

Also, it's preferable if you don't talk about non-Mistborn things in this forum outside of spoilers.

1 minute ago, Demiandre said:

yes, I meant a human attribute, but maybe you were just agreeing that it is feasible ?

You're saying whether being mistborn as a whole is a power which can be stolen? Personally I don't think so, it's just a collection of powers bound together. 

[Inquisitor #5]

9 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Maybe. A spren bond does certainly change the spiritweb. However, we're talking about completely separate systems here. I doubt one would really be able to adequately resolve the issues of the other. If we compare physical genetics, it's probably like each has genes overlapping on the same chromosome, so having one prevents the other from reaching its full potential. Bonding a spren is like adding more chromosomes, but it isn't going to fix the overlap issue. 

Yeah, I was thinking of a similar analogy there, if we think of Allomancy and Feruchemy as both being expressions of a recessive gene, well, if we get one of each they're co-dominant, no? So you can get a bit of both but not either fully (without... enhancing... of course.)

And I know my genetics analogy isn't perfect, it can't account for mistings/ferrings...

 

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Edited December 12, 2016 by Inquisitor #5

[Spoolofwhool]

Just now, Inquisitor #5 said:

Yeah, I was thinking of as similar analogy there, if we think of Allomancy and Feruchemy as both being expressions of a recessive gene, well, if we get one of each they're co-dominant, no? So you can get a bit of both but not either fully (without... enhancing... of course.)

And I know my genetics analogy isn't perfect, it can't account for mistings/ferrings...

 

¤_¤

Yeah, and it's spiritual DNA which doesn't work quite the same way.

Also guys.

Spoiler

I'm trying to watch anime. Hard to do when people keep replying to me.

Spoiler

JK, keep it up. I'm enjoying the conversation.

 

 

[Argent]

12 minutes ago, Eki said:

Isn't there a WoB on Allomancy basically being about as diluted as it will be, reaching some kind of equilibrium?

Yeah, maybe. I seem to recall something similar.

15 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The gene for allomancy interferes with the gene for feruchemy.

It does? My understanding is that there is no actual conflict here, just a cultural one - the Terris people have always been a secluded bunch, not exactly frolicking with outsiders every chance they get. Not to mention Rashek wasn't fond of the idea either. 

[Weltall]

My money's on the 'Lost Metal' being atium, since it's already referred to as such in-universe. Whether it comes from Marsh's cache or Harmony starts generating the stuff again who knows. But Kelsier did say it would take about three hundred years for the geodes to regrow and I'm not entirely certain that number is a coincidence. And Brandon apparently RAFO'd a question on that number with a smile on his face so...

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

We still don't know what burning that would do.

Easy, you swallow it and then you blow up.

3 minutes ago, Argent said:

It does? My understanding is that there is no actual conflict here, just a cultural one - the Terris people have always been a secluded bunch, not exactly frolicking with outsiders every chance they get. Not to mention Rashek wasn't fond of the idea either. 

Yeah, he said that Allomancy 'genes' and Feruchemy ones interfere with one another.

www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=632#1

Edited December 12, 2016 by Weltall

[Demiandre]

3 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

You're saying whether being mistborn as a whole is a power which can be stolen? Personally I don't think so, it's just a collection of powers bound together. 

A single bead of Lerasium grant all Allomantic power, so it changes the spiritweb into that of a Mistborn, and it will be different than of a Misting. The Coppermind says Atium spike can also steal a human attribute. So stealing the whole spiritweb shoul be possible IMO.

 

That would be interesting to know for sure, I'll dig in the WoB

Edited December 12, 2016 by Demiandre

[Inquisitor #5]

5 minutes ago, Demiandre said:

@Inquisitor #5, @Spoolofwhool yes, I meant a human attribute, but maybe you were just agreeing that it is feasible ?

@Eki

  Reveal hidden contents

Yes, but as the Lost Metal, I figured it concerned a known Metal which isn't found or known anymore. Harmonium is used by the southerner, and exist only since the Final Ascension, so it hasn't been Lost yet.

 

I'm saying maybe, also, interesting idea.

6 minutes ago, Jedal said:

I don't really think of it in terms of genetics. To me it seems like there is a specific amount of "space" alloted for a single person. While the majority is filled by personality and physical features, some parts can be filled with Investiture. Rashek was naturally Invested with Feruchemy, and "added" more space when he became a Sliver(his spirit web was expanded). So, in theory, if someone has the potential to be a Fullborn, but is without the space, the addition of a spren would increase the space, allowing for a person to be Fullborn and Surgebinder.

Well, "natural" Investiture on Scadrial is tied to your sDNA and is something you're born with.

 

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[Jedal]

Just now, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'm saying maybe, also, interesting idea.

Well, "natural" Investiture on Scadrial is tied to your sDNA and is something you're born with.

 

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@Spoolofwhool

Spoiler

While the space is created to allow spren, I would think that most of the Investiture lies within the spren itself. Depending on the "size" of the spiritual wound, someone could in theory gain access to their latent Feruchemical and Allomantic abilities.

 

[Spoolofwhool]

4 minutes ago, Argent said:

It does? My understanding is that there is no actual conflict here, just a cultural one - the Terris people have always been a secluded bunch, not exactly frolicking with outsiders every chance they get. Not to mention Rashek wasn't fond of the idea either. 

Quote

WETLANDERNW

Why do the Twinborn in Alloy of Law have only one feruchemical power, when all previous feruchemists, in spite of breeding programs, could use all the metals? (from travyl) Or were Ferrings always part of the system and we just didn't meet them in Mistborn? (my addition)

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Ferrings are a new development since Mistborn, as the Feruchemists have been interbreeding with the Allomancers. Basically, the Allomancy genes interfere with the Feruchemistry genes, breaking it down and creating the limitations we see in Alloy of Law. (His response to this was really fun—he found it a very perceptive question, and enjoyed talking about it. I wish I'd had my recorder handy so I could give you the full transcript instead of the boiled-down version.)

[Source]

 

4 minutes ago, Demiandre said:

A single bead of Lerasium grant all Allomantic power, so it changes the spiritweb into that of a Mistborn, and it will be different than of a Misting. The Coppermind says Atium spike can also steal a human attribute. So stealing the whole spiritweb shoul be possible IMO.

I think there's a limit on how much investiture you can fit into a hemalurgic spike, and an entire spiritweb would probably surpass most conventional limits. That said, I did have a thought awhile ago that it could be possible. Anyhow, the thing is that I don't consider mistborn a human attribute, anymore than I would consider 

Stormlight Archive

Spoiler

Being a windrunner a human attribute. It's a term which defines someone who possesses a specific set of powers. 

I see Mistborn as being the same way, as just referring to a specific set.

1 minute ago, Jedal said:

@Spoolofwhool

  Reveal hidden contents

While the space is created to allow spren, I would think that most of the Investiture lies within the spren itself. Depending on the "size" of the spiritual wound, someone could in theory gain access to their latent Feruchemical and Allomantic abilities.

 

My point is that expanding the spiriweb doesn't work, since the genes don't exist at that point. The allomantic gene has already degraded the feruchemical gene (see above) such that being a full feruchemist is not possible unless the spiriweb is rewritten to make that person into a full feruchemist. The gene isn't being suppressed, it's actually damaged.

[Jedal]

Just now, Spoolofwhool said:

 

I think there's a limit on how much investiture you can fit into a hemalurgic spike, and an entire spiritweb would probably surpass most conventional limits. That said, I did have a thought awhile ago that it could be possible. Anyhow, the thing is that I don't consider mistborn a human attribute, anymore than I would consider 

Stormlight Archive

  Reveal hidden contents

Being a windrunner a human attribute. It's a term which defines someone who possesses a specific set of powers. 

I see Mistborn as being the same way, as just referring to a specific set.

My point is that expanding the spiriweb doesn't work, since the genes don't exist at that point. The allomantic gene has already degraded the feruchemical gene (see above) such that being a full feruchemist is not possible unless the spiriweb is rewritten to make that person into a full feruchemist. The gene isn't being suppressed, it's actually damaged.

I see. So the only way for a person to physically be Fullborn is to become a Sliver and have their spiritweb increased? Like the Lord Ruler?

[Mirdrim]

3 minutes ago, Jedal said:

I see. So the only way for a person to physically be Fullborn is to become a Sliver and have their spiritweb increased? Like the Lord Ruler?

That, or presumably, be a fullborn Feruchemist and eat a Lerasium bead.

[Eki]

18 minutes ago, Demiandre said:

@Eki

  Reveal hidden contents

Yes, but as the Lost Metal, I figured it concerned a known Metal which isn't found or known anymore. Harmonium is used by the southerner, and exist only since the Final Ascension, so it hasn't been Lost yet.

 

Yeah, that's a good point. My last comment was mostly to the topic in general, not specifically to you.

[Spoolofwhool]

Just now, Jedal said:

I see. So the only way for a person to physically be Fullborn is to become a Sliver and have their spiritweb increased? Like the Lord Ruler?

No. There are other methods of rewriting the spiritweb in the Cosmere. For instance, lerasium can be used to rewrite the spiriweb, so it could probably be used to turn someone into a Full Feruchemist. Ascending using the Well of Ascension didn't turn TLR into a Fullborn, nor did becoming a sliver. He intentionally used a part of the Well's power to turn himself into a mistborn. Sliver's aren't naturally fullborn, though they do have expanded cognitive and physical traits because of the stress of investiture.

The Emperor's Soul

Spoiler

In theory, forgery could be used to grant someone the ability to use a manifestation of investiture, as it does rewrite the spiritweb. Practically though, the amount of investiture required to do that is, according to a recent WoB, too great to make it possible.

 

[Inquisitor #5]

Great work tacking the WOB down, Spool! I couldn't find it myself.

18 minutes ago, Jedal said:

I see. So the only way for a person to physically be Fullborn is to become a Sliver and have their spiritweb increased? Like the Lord Ruler?

And I think you're approaching this from the wrong direction, @Jedal. The point isn't the "size" of your soul as much as what it contains, I think. 

 

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Edited December 12, 2016 by Inquisitor #5

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

I leave for less than hour to get some homework done and come back to find 30 new replies. That was fast. In response to the "how to become a full born" aspect, are we sure that being born that way is out of the question? TLR was afraid of this very thing happening, and he had a better understanding of hemalurgy, allomancy, and feruchemy as a result of Ascending. Similarly, if TLR had children, is there no chance they could have both abilities, but their children would have an exponentially decreased chance of doing so?

[Inquisitor #5]

Well, it seems the rules have changed slightly since the Sazed's ascension:

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1109#22

 

And with the WOB Spool quoted up there I'd think we've got a pretty strong case for "no, you can't achieve it naturally."

 

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[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

Is reason because Harmony changed the rules? The WOB wasn't entirely clear.

[Inquisitor #5]

@Faceless Mist-Wraith, that's how I read the implication there, yes.

Mind you, I could be utterly wrong on that.

 

 

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[Demiandre]

This one will be clearer :

Quote

Wetlandernw

Why do the Twinborn in Alloy of Law have only one feruchemical power, when all previous feruchemists, in spite of breeding programs, could use all the metals? (from travyl) Or were Ferrings always part of the system and we just didn't meet them in Mistborn? (my addition)

Brandon Sanderson

The Ferrings are a new development since Mistborn, as the Feruchemists have been interbreeding with the Allomancers. Basically, the Allomancy genes interfere with the Feruchemistry genes, breaking it down and creating the limitations we see in Alloy of Law. (His response to this was really fun—he found it a very perceptive question, and enjoyed talking about it. I wish I'd had my recorder handy so I could give you the full transcript instead of the boiled-down version.)

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=632#1

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

I have read this quote before, however it seems to suggest that the Lord Ruler never had anything to fear from Feruchemists breeding with the population. Yet, we see from his actions that he seemed to think otherwise. I assumed that since he had Ascended, and as a result received knowledge of Hemalurgy and all of the 16 metals, that he would have also learned that there was no chance of a fullborn being born. The fact that he enacted the breeding programs seems to suggest there was a way it could happen, because otherwise why bother?

[Demiandre]

I personally think he didn't know of the gene problem. He got a full bunch of information during the Ascension, but there are a lot of things he didn't know. For example, he couldn't do anything other than Kandra, Kolosses and Inquisitors with Hemlalurgy even though he got a thousand years to practice and the Ascension to grant him knowledge of this Metttalic Art.

That seems the easiest explanation

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

It just seems like it would have come up. After all, he used the power of Preservation to turn the Feruchemists into mist-wraiths (does that mean I'm an honorary Feruchemist?) specifically to avoid the Feruchemy-Allomancy mix. Since his mind was expanded at the time, allowing him to see everything in minute detail, the power should have shown him that there was nothing to worry about.

[Inquisitor #5]

That or simple paranoid superstition.

 

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[Blue Skies]

Wow. This thread filled up quick. Love it when the community comes together to discuss this stuff. First off, in reply to an early comment: Completely forgot Spook was turned into a mistborn by Harmony. Totally right on that. Second, the feeling I am getting is that if Spook did have any children likely as not the Mistborn gene didn't take (or at least not that we know anyway) Thirdly, wait seriously Feruchemy and Allomancy clash? I need to pay more attention. 

I agree with Faceless MistWraith, I always assumed that the lord ruler was trying to stop anyone from acquiring the same abilities as him. So then, linking back to my question above, how do allomancy and feruchemy clash? Is it because Rashek voided that by taking the power at the well of accession?