Theory on how to kill the Lord Ruler without removing his metal-minds

[Spoolofwhool]

43 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

When you say nicrosil can have multiple types stored in a single metal, what stores are you referring to? I'm not sure what you mean.

A single piece of nicrosil can store the ability to be a Fireheart ferring and a Skimmer ferring simultaneously, as separate charges. It's possible that that was possible because it was two different ferrings doing the storing, but isn't it believed that the Bands of Mourning were made by a Mistborn, and it appears to be a single piece of nicrosil woven throughout. That appeared to be the case with the medallions. 

Edited December 11, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

I think at least in the Bands of Mourning's case it stored the ability to become a fullborn, and that is why a person had access to all of the individual powers. I could be wrong, that was just how I understood it.

[Demiandre]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

It's possible that that was possible because it was two different ferrings doing the storing, but isn't it believed that the Bands of Mourning were made by a Mistborn, and it appears to be a single piece of nicrosil woven throughout. That appeared to be the case with the medallions. 

The Bands are made of all Allomantic Metals, and Identity free thanks to F-Alluminium. And I think I remember that the medallions are also made of Nicrosil and other metals (up to four). One for storing Investiture, and the metal for the necessary Attribute to store or tap.

 

1 hour ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I think at least in the Bands of Mourning's case it stored the ability to become a fullborn, and that is why a person had access to all of the individual powers. I could be wrong, that was just how I understood it.

The Nicrosil in it enables persons to use Allomancy. And F-Alluminium makes the bearer a Feruchemist, so you're right. That's why it is so powerful.

[shadowwisp]

The Lord Ruler would lose his allomatic metal reserves but besides that, couldn't he just burn Duralumin to burn away the majority of the Aluminum? As soon as the Aluminum touches his flesh/blood, it should be burnable in one massive flash. 

Other option would be to just rip off body parts and regrow them from scratch. 

Edited December 12, 2016 by shadowwisp

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I think at least in the Bands of Mourning's case it stored the ability to become a fullborn, and that is why a person had access to all of the individual powers. I could be wrong, that was just how I understood it.

I don't think being a fullborn is an ability, it's just a term applied to people who have a specific set of abilities. If it were, or even being Mistborn was, then you could probably steal the entire set hemalurgically, which we know it can't, indicating that all powers are separate within the spiritweb, separate attributes.

[Yata]

7 hours ago, Demiandre said:

The Nicrosil in it enables persons to use Allomancy. And F-Alluminium makes the bearer a Feruchemist, so you're right. That's why it is so powerful.

Sorry but unless you have made some typing error this is not true. Nicrosil enable persons to use both Allomancy and Feruchemy. F-Alluminium is used only to put you in a state of no Identity.

You may notice how all the medalions we see (with the possible exception of the Bands for their complex design) have not Alluminium Sections...It's quite useless for the majority of the Medallion (the charge in them is already Identity.-free).

PS: There is also a common theory that says that is impossible to create an Unsealed Metalmind capable of gifting F-Alluminium

[Demiandre]

Oh right sorry ! It's not really a typo, but an editing error. I copied, pasted, rewrote and so on.... Originally, I meant F-Alluminium makes the bearer able to use the Feruchemical Charge of the Bands.

It's true that I contradict what I wrote just above. Silly me.

3 hours ago, Yata said:

It's quite useless for the majority of the Medallion (the charge in them is already Identity.-free).

Why would the charge already be Identity free ? That would mean that the person storing the Charge (For Connection, Weight or Heat) would also be a Trueself Ferring. Otherwise, the medallion would be keyed, no ? I'll also go looking for the theory you mention, that seems interesting

[Vissy]

Another problem with the molten aluminum method is how are you going to heat aluminum to such crazy temperatures with the technology available to the skaa / nobility during the Final Empire?

[Demiandre]

Well if you can forge steel (higher melting point), you can probably melt Aluminium. The true problem would be accessing sufficient quantity of Allumin.

[Spoolofwhool]

During the final empire, the only way to get aluminum (mainly) was directly from the ashmounts. None of the modern techniques of metallurgy that they have in Era 2 existed.

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

Would this then be a surefire method for stopping a gold twinborn such as Miles?

[Spoolofwhool]

6 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

Would this then be a surefire method for stopping a gold twinborn such as Miles?

Sure, unless he detonates some dynamite and escapes. I'm still also not on-board with how well the aluminum would actually make it into wounds to prevent healing, though I guess a surface covering would work to prevent outward growth of new tissue.

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

I don't believe you would be able to detonate dynamite while covered in liquid metal. Besides, he would still have to deal with the metal attached to his skin, which he wouldn't be able to get rid of. Once the metal hardens he's going to have more problems as well. I'm not an expert on how well molten metal burns through flesh, but I imagine it would burn away enough skin and muscle, after which it would remain in the wound as the metal cooled on contact with blood. (A bit gruesome but there you go.)

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

I don't know if a gold compounder can be killed using radiation.

[Spoolofwhool]

52 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I don't know if a gold compounder can be killed using radiation.

They'd probably just heal any radiation damage. 

[+robardin]

Instead of dropping a bucket of molten aluminum onto the TLR, what about dropping him into a whole LAKE of the stuff? Would he go down like the T-1000 in Terminator 2? Make it a wooden room so he can't Pull himself out.

I'd imagine all the molten metal would be doing some pretty heavy and constant damage to his health.

 

[Spoolofwhool]

I just realized an easier and more practical way to kill him.

Warbreaker Spoilers

Spoiler

Stab him with Nightblood.

 

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

The main problem with this method is that you have to get close enough to do stab him, and he would have to let you. While he may fear normal weaponry, he will probably think twice about a sword that leaks black smoke. Especially since from his viewpoint, the only thing that leaks black smoke is Ruin, so he will probably associate the sword with Ruin and give the person a wide berth.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Faceless Mist-Wraith

[+robardin]

7 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I just realized an easier and more practical way to kill him.

Warbreaker Spoilers

  Hide contents

Stab him with Nightblood.

 

That depends on who the agent is...

Spoiler

It's not impossible that Nightblood would see Kelsier as "evil", because Kelsier seems like the type to want to use Nightblood to "manipulate others"

 

[Spoolofwhool]

45 minutes ago, robardin said:

That depends on who the agent is...

  Reveal hidden contents

It's not impossible that Nightblood would see Kelsier as "evil", because Kelsier seems like the type to want to use Nightblood to "manipulate others"

 

True, but

Spoiler

You would just have to convince Nightblood that TLR is more evil, which wouldn't be that hard. 

 

[cometaryorbit]

Rather than using molten aluminum, just get a Thug to shoot an aluminum arrowhead through his brain. Much less quantity of aluminum required, and while it would still be hard to do, shooting an arrow when TLR is surrounded by tens of thousands of people would be a lot subtler. The question is whether the added strength and dexterity granted by pewter allomancy are enough to reliably get the arrow through the skull and into the critical part of the brain with the first shot... you'd only get one.

Another version, to avoid the problem of piercing bone with a relatively soft metal, would be to go for the heart with an aluminum-headed arrow designed to have the head break off (or even better, break into multiple pieces) when TLR tries to pull it out. The question is if he has enough Gold available to survive long enough to get the pieces removed...

Another possibility, given that TLR was sloppy enough to let himself be stabbed in the big battle in the square, would be to use a Pewter spearhead to spike out his feruchemical gold power. While this would render TLR killable, the person who actually did the stabbing almost certainly wouldn't survive. Another problem is that he might just grab the spear and stick it into the right bindpoint to get the power back. So you'd probably want to have a team of Lurchers ready to grab the spearhead & pull it out of his reach (you'd need a team because TLR is much stronger than any one normal allomancer). Then you could either have a Thug or Mistborn burn it away or have one of your team spike themselves with it.

EDIT: More speculatively, you might be able to kill him with a sufficiently big koloss blade, if you could separate his head from his metalminds completely. Normal decapitation wouldn't work, since the neck would just heal up behind the sword, but if the blade were wider than the neck... maybe?

If we're opening this up to options not available in Era 1 Mistborn (given the mention of a Warbreaker element above), then:

- Hit him with Leeching (Chromium Allomancy). All the charged Gold in his stomach vanishes, so he's limited to the charge in his actual metalminds. Then kill him with repeated massive physical trauma (probably requires relatively high tech weapons given his other defensive abilities - sufficiently large bombs plus a fusillade of machine gun fire should work, but the Leecher wouldn't survive either.)

- Lash him upward so hard that he never falls back down (not sure if this is possible with practically achievable quantities of Stormlight). That at least removes him as a threat, and should be fatal eventually, as he'd have to compound Gold to avoid dying in vacuum, and in vacuum he can't get more gold, so will run out and die.

Edited December 31, 2016 by cometaryorbit
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[Spoolofwhool]

7 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Rather than using molten aluminum, just get a Thug to shoot an aluminum arrowhead through his brain. Much less quantity of aluminum required, and while it would still be hard to do, shooting an arrow when TLR is surrounded by tens of thousands of people would be a lot subtler. The question is whether the added strength and dexterity granted by pewter allomancy are enough to reliably get the arrow through the skull and into the critical part of the brain with the first shot... you'd only get one.

Another version, to avoid the problem of piercing bone with a relatively soft metal, would be to go for the heart with an aluminum-headed arrow designed to have the head break off (or even better, break into multiple pieces) when TLR tries to pull it out. The question is if he has enough Gold available to survive long enough to get the pieces removed...

Another possibility, given that TLR was sloppy enough to let himself be stabbed in the big battle in the square, would be to use a Pewter spearhead to spike out his feruchemical gold power. While this would render TLR killable, the person who actually did the stabbing almost certainly wouldn't survive. Another problem is that he might just grab the spear and stick it into the right bindpoint to get the power back. So you'd probably want to have a team of Lurchers ready to grab the spearhead & pull it out of his reach (you'd need a team because TLR is much stronger than any one normal allomancer). Then you could either have a Thug or Mistborn burn it away or have one of your team spike themselves with it.

 

First thought, I doubt would work. Even if you got it in through anext eye socket, if he's tapping gold at that point, then he would live, just the wound wouldn't heal. More crippling wounds with aluminum are better.

Second idea, see first. Also, having enough gold charge wouldn't be a problem as long as they keep providing him with gold to compound it.

Third. Once again wouldn't work if he's paying any sort of attention since he can just burn a gold metalmind to compound the charge and heal the spiritual damage to regain the feruchemical power and the physical damage from the spiking.

Overall all three ideas would successfully work and kill him immediately if he's not tapping gold or doesn't have a gold metalmind on him at the moment. Since he can though, chances are that he's always tapping health like Miles, rendering them largely unviable.

[Yata]

@cometaryorbit all the plan regard the "hit him in the brain and kill him" would fail as long as he had Gold Healing and He would probably rip off his head to allow a new one to grow if he decide it's the better counterattack.

Try to Spike him out the Gold Feruchemy is actual a good plan, but as @Spoolofwhool said he may simply heal the Soul damage and honestly I don't see him let someone do this. As soon he see something wrong He would switch between "I don't give a storm" to "exterminate! exterminate!"

The Leecher one would kill him (and not for the gold but for the Youth). but IF there is a Leecher, we have to assume He knows the other metals are discovered, we have to assume He already figure something wrong when a guy approciate him without burning nothing and we have to assume the Leecher may keep the contact soo long to drain all the reserves (and Rashek had tons of Feruchemical Charge). I think Rashek will reap apart the poor guy as soon he sense his standard metal vanish.

The Lashing idea is tricky. Rashek may almost use differenct countermeasures to it.

1) Pull/Push on something to resist the lash

2) Burn for a couple of seconds (alternative with his Atium to remain alive) Alluminium, to purge away the hostile Investiture. I say something like: 2 second A-Alluminium, 3 second Youth, repeat.

3) If He know the way to worldhop with Metallic arts...He may shift realm

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

First thought, I doubt would work. Even if you got it in through anext eye socket, if he's tapping gold at that point, then he would live, just the wound wouldn't heal. More crippling wounds with aluminum are better.

Not if it hit the right part of the brain. If he can't form the thought / send the command to his metalminds to do the healing, he dies. I agree hitting the brain just anywhere wouldn't work, which is why it might require accuracy implausible even for pewter-dexterity.

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Second idea, see first. Also, having enough gold charge wouldn't be a problem as long as they keep providing him with gold to compound it.

Sure... but he would still have to survive long enough to reach a new source of gold. If attacked outside his palace, that might not be trivial. He's going to have to burn health at a totally ridiculous rate, since he can't heal the actual wound - he'll have to constantly heal his whole body dying from lack of blood flow. That's probably way harder than healing being stabbed through the heart or near-decapitation, which are "once and done".

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Third. Once again wouldn't work if he's paying any sort of attention since he can just burn a gold metalmind to compound the charge and heal the spiritual damage to regain the feruchemical power and the physical damage from the spiking.

Right, I forgot you could do that - I was thinking he would just get the allomantic effect of gold if he's not a gold Feruchemist anymore.

54 minutes ago, Yata said:

@cometaryorbit all the plan regard the "hit him in the brain and kill him" would fail as long as he had Gold Healing and He would probably rip off his head to allow a new one to grow if he decide it's the better counterattack

I don't think that can be done. If it ever got totally separated (no chance to "regrow behind the blade") he would be dead since there'd be no connection from brain to metalminds to 'tell them to heal'.

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we have to assume the Leecher may keep the contact soo long to drain all the reserves (and Rashek had tons of Feruchemical Charge). I think Rashek will reap apart the poor guy as soon he sense his standard metal vanish.

Do we know that Leeching takes time? It's likely instantaneous like aluminum, or at least momentary like duralumin - and I don't think duralumin burns longer if you have more metal, just gives more power in that moment.

Can you Leech away Feruchemical charge anyway? I was just talking about reducing him to the status of a full Feruchemist, at which point he could be beaten.

[Yata]

@cometaryorbit actually no

The Brain is meaningless in the Realmatic. Your Mind from the Cognitive may still tap your metalmind therefore I can't actually see the problem to be without head. Also Rashek was already beheaded in his early TLR's years and He did quite fine.

About the Nicrosil part (and the Allumin part as far as It's relevant): The Nicrosil isn't real istantaneous just really really fast (as Alluminium), in a normal way mundane metal may be "leeched" in an istant (so you have right) but Invested metal (and for extension Metalminds and Spikes) isn't so easy. THe Metal's Invesiture resist to the Chromium Allomancy and you need to grab for seconds a Ferring to destroy his metalmind...I can't actually imagine how long you need to grab TLR to destroy his metalminds (notice that in a context where also TLR may use Chromium He would simply win the challenge).

IF (for hypotesis) you manage to remove all the mundane metals from TLR, He would still be a Full Feruchemist with quite Infinite amount of avaliable charges and he may still tap power from the metal in his stomach to turn into regular metal and burn with standard allomancy.