Faceless Mist-Wraith he/him Posted December 31, 2016 Author Posted December 31, 2016 6 hours ago, Yata said: He would probably rip off his head to allow a new one to grow if he decide it's the better counterattack. Are we sure that TLR can grow back a new head? He may have survived decapitation, but I assumed that was by healing his neck as it was cut. I was under the impression that if you cut off his head and kept it separated from his body long enough that he would eventually die. Is this incorrect?
Yata he/him Posted December 31, 2016 Posted December 31, 2016 38 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said: Are we sure that TLR can grow back a new head? He may have survived decapitation, but I assumed that was by healing his neck as it was cut. I was under the impression that if you cut off his head and kept it separated from his body long enough that he would eventually die. Is this incorrect? You don't see the process from a Realmatic point of view. The Mind works indipendently from the any kind of biological function (and as you may see also an item develop some rudimental mind) so if you are headless, you are still able to think and give mental commands as every Cognitive Shadow or simply recent deadmen in the Cognitive Realm may prove. Spoiler from BoM: Spoiler For example Wax was biological dead when Marasi carried to him the BoM, then He tap F-Gold to restore the former self
Faceless Mist-Wraith he/him Posted December 31, 2016 Author Posted December 31, 2016 54 minutes ago, Yata said: The Mind works indipendently from the any kind of biological function (and as you may see also an item develop some rudimental mind) so if you are headless, you are still able to think and give mental commands as every Cognitive Shadow or simply recent deadmen in the Cognitive Realm may prove. I don't see how this proves TLR can regrow a head. If it did, that would suggest that Miles could regrow a head as well if he was beheaded, which didn't seem to be the case. Do you have a quote or a WoB that specifically states that?
Yata he/him Posted December 31, 2016 Posted December 31, 2016 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said: I don't see how this proves TLR can regrow a head. If it did, that would suggest that Miles could regrow a head as well if he was beheaded, which didn't seem to be the case. Do you have a quote or a WoB that specifically states that? What is the difference between the head and any other part of the body when your Mind is indipendent by your brain ? Hoid for example may regrow a new head. Miles isn't afraid of someone blow up his head and Stormlight 2 Spoiler: Spoiler Nale too has no problem to made Szeth fall from the Sky aganist rocks and restore him and Szeth has also his nervous system quite destroied by a Shardblade's cut) Edited December 31, 2016 by Yata
Faceless Mist-Wraith he/him Posted December 31, 2016 Author Posted December 31, 2016 5 minutes ago, Yata said: What is the difference between the head and any other part of the body when your Mind is indipendent by your brain ? Hoid for example may regrow a new head. Miles isn't afraid of someone blow up his head Is the mind independent of their brain? I thought the Cognitive Aspect was linked to the brain and as a result if your brain was separated from your body you would no longer be able to manipulate it i.e grow a new head from your body. As for Miles, he took shots to the head, but never was his brain separated from his body. Hold I assumed was a special case, since we don't know how exactly he heals.
Yata he/him Posted December 31, 2016 Posted December 31, 2016 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said: Is the mind independent of their brain? I thought the Cognitive Aspect was linked to the brain and as a result if your brain was separated from your body you would no longer be able to manipulate it i.e grow a new head from your body. As for Miles, he took shots to the head, but never was his brain separated from his body. Hold I assumed was a special case, since we don't know how exactly he heals. The more likely WoB I found is this....cites both an heavy "head trauma" (very heavy) and both the fact TLR lost his head. http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=decapitated Quote SORONIR About Miles from Alloy of Law and his regenerative powers. If he was bisected down the middle and the halves were separated immediately before the healing process could begin, would the two halves each regrow into a whole Miles? BRANDON SANDERSON Good question. In all of the Cosmere's Shard-based magics, the greater portion of a bisected body regrows the lesser portion. If it were done EXACTLY halfway, the soul wold jump to one or the other randomly and that would regrow. Amusingly, this first came up in 1999, six years before I got published. (I see someone else already mentioned the situation where I had to consider it.) PHANTINE So... wait a sec, the Lord Ruler got decapitated at one point... What did he do with the severed head? Mount it on the wall? BRANDON SANDERSON PHANTINE He mounted it SIDEWAYS? Edited December 31, 2016 by Yata
cometaryorbit Posted December 31, 2016 Posted December 31, 2016 2 hours ago, Yata said: The more likely WoB I found is this....cites both an heavy "head trauma" (very heavy) and both the fact TLR lost his head I don't think just as a response confirms TLR had an extra head left over. 8 hours ago, Yata said: @cometaryorbit actually no The Brain is meaningless in the Realmatic. Your Mind from the Cognitive may still tap your metalmind therefore I can't actually see the problem to be without head. Also Rashek was already beheaded in his early TLR's years and He did quite fine. I don't think so. Sure, the mind can function without the brain (Cognitive Shadows can think) but by that point you're dead. A Cognitive Shadow can't tap the body's metalminds. We know that TLR survived some kind of decapitation, but not the details. A sword is narrower than a neck, so it could have healed up behind the blade - no complete disconnection. But if that's a problem - just hack off his arms with a koloss blade (Vin could wield one with pewter). The metalminds will no longer be connected.
Spoolofwhool Posted December 31, 2016 Posted December 31, 2016 1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said: I don't think so. Sure, the mind can function without the brain (Cognitive Shadows can think) but by that point you're dead. A Cognitive Shadow can't tap the body's metalminds. We know that TLR survived some kind of decapitation, but not the details. A sword is narrower than a neck, so it could have healed up behind the blade - no complete disconnection. But if that's a problem - just hack off his arms with a koloss blade (Vin could wield one with pewter). The metalminds will no longer be connected. Decapitation means the head is removed. Since the premise of him being decapitated wasn't challenged, I see no reason why not to doubt that he completely lost his head. Also, we have another WoB that the head is not necessary to enable to power magics, as Hoid could regrow his head if his were removed. In any case, while your example with removing the arm does work, it doesn't with the head, as the WoB with Miles states, the spiritual and cognitive would remain with the greater physical portion, which in the case of a head removal, would be the main body holding the metalminds. As such, the cognitive would still be able to continue the tap. 1
Faceless Mist-Wraith he/him Posted December 31, 2016 Author Posted December 31, 2016 33 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said: Decapitation means the head is removed. Since the premise of him being decapitated wasn't challenged, I see no reason why not to doubt that he completely lost his head. Also, we have another WoB that the head is not necessary to enable to power magics, as Hoid could regrow his head if his were removed. In any case, while your example with removing the arm does work, it doesn't with the head, as the WoB with Miles states, the spiritual and cognitive would remain with the greater physical portion, which in the case of a head removal, would be the main body holding the metalminds. As such, the cognitive would still be able to continue the tap. I'm fairly sure that Hoid is a special case, since he is currently the most-powerful non-shard. I believe the WoB that talks about him growing a new head is in response to a question of what would happen if Hoid's head was cut off with a shardblade. Since all of the characters we've seen so far have had to avoid damage to the nervous system even when Invested, it's unlikely that the head regrowth applies to everyone. As for the WoB about Miles, it was referring to what would happen if you bisected Miles down the middle, so even in this case the head is still attached to both halves.
Spoolofwhool Posted January 1, 2017 Posted January 1, 2017 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said: Since all of the characters we've seen so far have had to avoid damage to the nervous system even when Invested, it's unlikely that the head regrowth applies to everyone. Miles has most definitely not been making any effort to avoid nervous damage. Also, while yes Hoid has significantly stronger powers, what that does prove is the cognitive is not connected to your head, which invalids your argument. Edited January 1, 2017 by Spoolofwhool
Faceless Mist-Wraith he/him Posted January 1, 2017 Author Posted January 1, 2017 3 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said: Miles has most definitely not been making any effort to avoid nervous damage I was referring to the characters on Roshar with respect to shardblades. In WoR we see both Kaladin and Szeth try to avoid being cut in the spine in order to avoid soul damage.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted January 1, 2017 Posted January 1, 2017 38 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said: I was referring to the characters on Roshar with respect to shardblades. In WoR we see both Kaladin and Szeth try to avoid being cut in the spine in order to avoid soul damage. Shardblades sever the spiritual from the physical if memory serves me. It would definitely be why they try to avoid it, but it is a step removed from a natural decapitation
Spoolofwhool Posted January 1, 2017 Posted January 1, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said: I was referring to the characters on Roshar with respect to shardblades. In WoR we see both Kaladin and Szeth try to avoid being cut in the spine in order to avoid soul damage. Interesting, but I don't see how that's relevant considering we were discussing non-spiritual physical damage and how it can affect whether someone can heal using gold feruchemy. Evidently spiritual damage would impact it since the power is spiritual in origin. Edited January 1, 2017 by Spoolofwhool
Vissy Posted January 1, 2017 Posted January 1, 2017 I'm more intrigued as to who was powerful enough to manage the feat of decapitating TLR in the first place
Spoolofwhool Posted January 1, 2017 Posted January 1, 2017 20 minutes ago, Rob Lucci said: I'm more intrigued as to who was powerful enough to manage the feat of decapitating TLR in the first place It was probably near the start of his reign when he wasn't that powerful and didn't have a following of inquisitors to protect him.
Vissy Posted January 1, 2017 Posted January 1, 2017 He was all-powerful from the very beginning, though. It's explicitly said that he gave himself understanding of metallic arts + both full feruchemy and allomancy when he ascended, basically made himself the strongest there was.
Spoolofwhool Posted January 1, 2017 Posted January 1, 2017 34 minutes ago, FiveLate said: I always assumed early in his reign as well. Some sort of trap ala Indiana Jones style with giant swinging swords or freaky hidden guillotine constructed at head height across doorways (yes I know it really is gravity driven, but some weight system or spring system instead). That sounds way too complicated. I thought it was just a Feruchemist who managed to get in quick with steel then tap pewter to deliver a super-strong strike. The expectation is that that would've worked since enough gold to regenerate a head was unheard of without compounding.
Spoolofwhool Posted January 1, 2017 Posted January 1, 2017 14 minutes ago, FiveLate said: Lol, I still like the Indiana Jones style traps just for the visuals it produces though. TLR striding forward all full of himself and then getting hit with BoM style beheading traps.... Wouldn't actually work since he would see metal lines to it.
Yata he/him Posted January 1, 2017 Posted January 1, 2017 12 hours ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said: I was referring to the characters on Roshar with respect to shardblades. In WoR we see both Kaladin and Szeth try to avoid being cut in the spine in order to avoid soul damage. Now we talk of two different things: Szeth can't heal Spiritual Damage (because the Honorblade doesn't give this ability to the weilder) but it's meaningless because a Surgebinder is unable to avoid fathal damage (a great headblow may kill him without chance to escape). The difference is in the way the powers works, also if Healing may almost recover from any kind of damage (if you have enough fuel): F-Gold and Stormlight's passive healing has some functional differences. The F-Gold (as any other Feruchemical ability) is a power strictly of the user, indipendent by external factor...This mean a Feruchemist may be "killed" and tap his metalmind to autoresurrect himself (maybe you don't like the "autoresurrect" word, but a guy who suffer a lethal blow and restore himself, it quite resurrected). A KR who recive a fatal blow would experience a "release of the bond" he would be no more a Surgebinder and have no more the ability to use Stormlight to heal himself...In the end He dies. (Notice that Healing may also allow someone to recover from a lethal Spiritual damage as "Shardblade cutted the spine" as we saw with Szeth....but if you have no more the power, you can't recover nothing)
The One Who Connects he/him Posted January 1, 2017 Posted January 1, 2017 2 hours ago, Rob Lucci said: He was all-powerful from the very beginning, though. It's explicitly said that he gave himself understanding of metallic arts + both full Feruchemy and Allomancy when he ascended, basically made himself the strongest there was. He was more powerful than even a Lerasium Mistborn. But, at the start of his reign Mistborn were more powerful than they are at the end of his reign, and he gave a bead to the founders of the 9 original houses. 9 Lerasium Mistborn, or at least some portion of second/third generation Mistborn all together could probably pose a challenge. Something else to remember is that in the early years, he may not have discovered the secret of compounding yet and had to fill his Metalminds the old fashioned way, greatly reducing his available power to draw from. I realize that I went away from explaining a possibility to you and started trying to rationalize for myself a way that TLR "was even flayed once, near the beginning." He had to have been underpowered in some way to have been held down long enough to do that, but powerful enough to survive and maintain his rule.
Yata he/him Posted January 1, 2017 Posted January 1, 2017 (edited) On 1/1/2017 at 6:44 PM, The One Who Connects said: Something else to remember is that in the early years, he may not have discovered the secret of compounding yet and had to fill his Metalminds the old fashioned way, greatly reducing his available power to draw from. Yes He would be above the Allomancers and Feruchemist of that era, but not the "almighy freak" we know. Before He figure the Compound mechanics, He had only a slight better way to fill metalminds than regular Feruchemist thanks to Allomancy (something like "I burn pewter and I use the extra Strenght,Speed, endurance to store safety more than I could do usually) but this is still far from the explosive amount of the Compound Edited January 3, 2017 by Yata
cometaryorbit Posted January 3, 2017 Posted January 3, 2017 On 1/1/2017 at 9:48 AM, FiveLate said: TLR was also burned to a Skelton at one point. That would be the total removal of all soft tissues like the nervous system, and he recovered from that which would have been no brain or nervous system and much harder that simple beheading. Well, there's a story in Vin's time that he was... I really doubt he was burned actually to a skeleton, all soft tissues gone. I'm not sure you could even do that without either some really flammable chemicals/very powerful oxidizer that wouldn't be available at that tech level, or far more time than a super-strong super-fast person would give you -- even without him actively healing as he burned. Flesh is very water-rich thus not particularly flammable. He probably just walked out of a burning building, on fire, and the story grew from there. Re how he got his head chopped off, he probably was just sloppy... he lets himself get stabbed in TFE. He probably just misjudged a hit from overconfidence.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted January 3, 2017 Posted January 3, 2017 5 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: I really doubt he was burned actually to a skeleton, all soft tissues gone. I swear I remember someone pointing out that he said something like "nearly a skeleton" in this thread, but I cannot find it. Regardless, your scientific paragraph does make it seem impossible to end up like as just bones in any short time period. As for him being overconfident and letting himself get decapitated or stabbed, that made me think of something. Cometaryorbit suggested spiking out his F-Gold with a Pewter spearhead. I just realized why that would not work if he had any Goldminds in his stomach ready to burn. This Quote Brandon Sanderson Uhn... Okay. If you spiked out his ability to heal gold and somehow left him alive. Kurkistan Yeah, but still having Allomancy. Brandon Sanderson Still has allomancy. Kurkistan And he’s like in the middle of burning a Goldmind. Brandon Sanderson Yes, that would still work. It'd still have a Spiritual connection to him.
Spoolofwhool Posted January 3, 2017 Posted January 3, 2017 33 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: I swear I remember someone pointing out that he said something like "nearly a skeleton" in this thread, but I cannot find it. Regardless, your scientific paragraph does make it seem impossible to end up like as just bones in any short time period. As for him being overconfident and letting himself get decapitated or stabbed, that made me think of something. Cometaryorbit suggested spiking out his F-Gold with a Pewter spearhead. I just realized why that would not work if he had any Goldminds in his stomach ready to burn. This He wouldn't even need the gold metalminds in his stomach; you can burn any metal which is in some part within you. Piercing for instance can be burned.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted January 3, 2017 Posted January 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said: He wouldn't even need the gold Metalminds in his stomach; you can burn any metal which is in some part within you. Piercing for instance can be burned. Really? I must've missed that revelation. On a side note, I thought that only his Atium bracers pierced the skin, as Vin could push/pull on his jewelry during their fight (and learning why that's a bad idea ) It's a trivial difference at this point, since having one ring among many piercing the skin is something Vin would never notice in that situation.
Recommended Posts