VirtuousTraveller he/him Posted December 1, 2016 Report Share Posted December 1, 2016 Quote QUESTION What happened to Vivenna? BRANDON SANDERSON This will be answered very soon. Brandon just said this yesterday - I think we're going to learn what happened to her in Oathbringer! =) 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nashan’Elin he/him Posted December 1, 2016 Report Share Posted December 1, 2016 *Excited screaming* My hype for Oathbringer has increased again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+robardin he/him Posted December 12, 2016 Report Share Posted December 12, 2016 (edited) Well if Vasher is now on Roshar, as is Nightblood, it stands to reason that Vivenna would likely be as well. I'm curious about what that would mean for her, since unlike Vasher she is not a Returned. How long is the time gap between the end of Warbreaker, and by the time we see "Zahel" in the Alethi warcamps, who still expected hearing a voice in his head he hadn't heard "for years", and Nightblood in the hands of Nalan? After all, as a Returned, he's got a Splinter of Endownment in him enabling shapeshifting and essentially indefinite immortality as long as he can get enough Stormlight to equal one Breath per week. Vivenna would still be mortal, though in very good health (immune to sickness) with all that Breath/Investiture in her. Vivenna, though, would be an Awakener. If Stormlight = Breath in terms of Investiture needed to survive as a Returned, does that also mean Stormlight-powered Awakening works for a native of Nalthis on Roshar? Edited December 12, 2016 by robardin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eki Posted December 12, 2016 Report Share Posted December 12, 2016 7 minutes ago, robardin said: Vivenna would still be mortal, though in very good health (immune to sickness) with all that Breath/Investiture in her. The Fifth Heightening grants agelessness, so she could have an indefinite lifespan too, in theory. 9 minutes ago, robardin said: Vivenna, though, would be an Awakener. If Stormlight = Breath in terms of Investiture needed to survive as a Returned, does that also mean Stormlight-powered Awakening works for a native of Nalthis on Roshar? Quote Interview: Jan 21st, 2015 Changing Hands, AZ ZenBossanova Can Vasher use Stormlight to Awaken things? Brandon Sanderson No, all it does is keep him alive. But he has tried and has not figured out how to awaken things. So short answer: Maybe, but one of the most experienced Awakeners in the Cosmere has not managed to figure out how to accomplish it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted December 12, 2016 Report Share Posted December 12, 2016 Ahh, I was ninja'd as I was typing up more or less that exact same response. xD Well, I'll add that in addition to immortality via Fifth Heightening (either by acquiring more Breath on her own or hitting up her brother in law who has a rather large store of the things), Vivenna has another possible method of extending her lifespan. We're told that worldhoppers experience some form of time dilation and all the ones we've met repeatedly are still alive centuries (possibly millenia) after they should have died of old age. So Vivenna could probably take advantage of whatever method they use, maybe running laps around the Cognitive Realm and taking advantage of relativity in some way while waiting for Vasher to get done doing his thing, or hanging out in Silverlight, or who knows what. Anyhow, she could definitely still be alive. That said, just because we're going to learn about her 'soon' doesn't necessarily mean we'll see her or that she's even alive. I'd certainly prefer that but for all we know, Oathbringer will include a scene where 'Zahel' misses her and reflects on how long it's been since she passed away. If I were being cheeky, I'd say that revealing that sort of thing wouldn't be 'spoiling' the eventual release of Nightblood because... Journey before Destination. <still crosses fingers that Vivenna is indeed still alive, even if she's not on Roshar> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+robardin he/him Posted December 12, 2016 Report Share Posted December 12, 2016 Cool. One of the fascinating things about this site is the collation of nuggets of info that Sanderson drops here and there. I'm sure that's even more pressure on him to keep things straight and consistent in his head So Why would Vasher return to Nathis at all? He's spent "years" on Roshar, it seems, or at least, spent years without Nightblood, which its being with Nalan and now Szeth I'd assume means he gave it to him more or less directly, unless it was stolen from him on Nalthis and he came to Roshar to retrieve it. Which is doubly interesting in that evidently he'd already been to Roshar before, to see Shardblades in action, as one of the Five Scholars... Did all five of them travel to Roshar, stockpile on Stormlight to avoid having to consume a Breath a week, and partition it so their "lifeline Investiture" was separate from their Breath repository on Nalthis? (Since Vasher definitely becomes "drab" a few times, and the first time we see him in the very beginning of Warbreaker, he has "barely enough Breath for the First Heightening".) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eki Posted December 12, 2016 Report Share Posted December 12, 2016 5 minutes ago, robardin said: So Why would Vasher return to Nathis at all? He's spent "years" on Roshar, it seems, or at least, spent years without Nightblood, which its being with Nalan and now Szeth I'd assume means he gave it to him more or less directly, unless it was stolen from him on Nalthis and he came to Roshar to retrieve it. We don't know what happened between Vasher and Nightblood, but I think I read somewhere that they had some kind of "falling out". I think Vasher is planning on staying on Roshar indefinitely, but there could be reasons why he'd want to go back, I'd assume. 7 minutes ago, robardin said: Did all five of them travel to Roshar, stockpile on Stormlight to avoid having to consume a Breath a week, and partition it so their "lifeline Investiture" was separate from their Breath repository on Nalthis? It's very hard to stockpile Stormlight, since it leaks out quickly. And remember, during their Scholar years, they were revered as Gods by the Cult of the Returned. That is how they could collect such hordes of Breath. They never had to worry about Breaths back then. I mean, Vasher wouldn't have to either, if he revealed himself to the Court, but he's a much different person to who he used to be, presumably. 10 minutes ago, robardin said: (Since Vasher definitely becomes "drab" a few times, and the first time we see him in the very beginning of Warbreaker, he has "barely enough Breath for the First Heightening".) A Returned can become a drab, as long as they are careful to not include their Divine Breath when they get rid of all the other Breath. As long as they have a Breath to consume at the end of the week, they are fine. And barely enough Breath for the first Heightening still means he could stay alive close to an Earthen year. (And the reason he has so few Breaths is because he used all of them to kill Arsteel.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted December 12, 2016 Report Share Posted December 12, 2016 39 minutes ago, robardin said: (Since Vasher definitely becomes "drab" a few times, and the first time we see him in the very beginning of Warbreaker, he has "barely enough Breath for the First Heightening".) To be fair though, at the start of Warbreaker, he could've been faking his Heightening, like he does to fake becoming a drab, just to avoid suspicion or attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+robardin he/him Posted December 12, 2016 Report Share Posted December 12, 2016 37 minutes ago, Eki said: It's very hard to stockpile Stormlight, since it leaks out quickly. .... A Returned can become a drab, as long as they are careful to not include their Divine Breath when they get rid of all the other Breath. As long as they have a Breath to consume at the end of the week, they are fine. And barely enough Breath for the first Heightening still means he could stay alive close to an Earthen year. (And the reason he has so few Breaths is because he used all of them to kill Arsteel.) True on both counts, except that if Stormlight "leaked quickly" it seems it couldn't serve the "one Breath a week" level of Investiture needed to keep a Returned alive. I was thinking more along the lines of maybe a Nalthian(?), or at least a Returned one, could "hold" Investiture - ingested in the form of Stormlight - differently or better than a Rosharan could. As for giving away "all your Breath, or none" - doesn't one of the annotated notes to Warbreaker say that Denth is not telling Vivenna the truth (though it appears to be the accepted wisdom on Nalthis, that both Denth and Vasher know better)? It just seems like too much of a coincidence that the Nalthis-Roshar connection includes at least one, if not multiple, "scholars" who were (a) Returned and (b) involved in Awakening a sword, inspired by seeing a Shardblade, which (c) required 10,000 Breaths to make, that (d) Stormlight is far easier to get on Roshar than Breath is on Nalthis and that (e) at some level, Stormlight is functionally equivalent to Breath. There are already indications that some kinds of magic are tied to the worlds the users are native to, such as AonDor, and others are completely portable (Hemalurgy). Maybe the reason Vasher/Zahel has tried to Awaken things with Stormlight on Roshar at all is because he's already taken Stormlight back to Nalthis for that purpose, and was wondering if he could do it locally, which he couldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted December 12, 2016 Report Share Posted December 12, 2016 1 hour ago, robardin said: Cool. One of the fascinating things about this site is the collation of nuggets of info that Sanderson drops here and there. I'm sure that's even more pressure on him to keep things straight and consistent in his head So Why would Vasher return to Nathis at all? He's spent "years" on Roshar, it seems, or at least, spent years without Nightblood, which its being with Nalan and now Szeth I'd assume means he gave it to him more or less directly, unless it was stolen from him on Nalthis and he came to Roshar to retrieve it. Brandon recently confirmed that Vasher and Nightblood were separated after arriving on Roshar but we don't know how that separation happened. And he's mentioned on a couple of occasions that he's got a database that Team Sanderson use to keep track of things. What I'd give to peek at that... 13 minutes ago, robardin said: True on both counts, except that if Stormlight "leaked quickly" it seems it couldn't serve the "one Breath a week" level of Investiture needed to keep a Returned alive. I was thinking more along the lines of maybe a Nalthian(?), or at least a Returned one, could "hold" Investiture - ingested in the form of Stormlight - differently or better than a Rosharan could. That could be the case; we think that proto-Radiants get better at holding Stormlight the more Oaths they swear so it's possible Vasher is more efficient at holding light than the characters we've seen so far. Another possibility is that the Stormlight that Vasher consumes goes to sustaining himself right away. We don't know exactly how the body of a Returned consumes their Breath, maybe it's possible for someone who's really familiar with the process to 'feed' themselves early. That way, you wouldn't have to rely on having infused spheres handy on one specific day every week and could 'top up' as light was available. I have no idea if such a thing is actually possible but if anyone knows enough about Returned physiology to manage it, it would be Vasher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emailanimal he/him Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 5 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said: To be fair though, at the start of Warbreaker, he could've been faking his Heightening, like he does to fake becoming a drab, just to avoid suspicion or attention. I think the Annotations are pretty direct about it. He has about 50 Breaths. The whole point of his imprisonment is that he needs a stash of Breaths and Vahr is the fastest way he knows to get there. But we do not see him go as a drab for any period of time approaching a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emailanimal he/him Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 5 hours ago, robardin said: True on both counts, except that if Stormlight "leaked quickly" it seems it couldn't serve the "one Breath a week" level of Investiture needed to keep a Returned alive. I was thinking more along the lines of maybe a Nalthian(?), or at least a Returned one, could "hold" Investiture - ingested in the form of Stormlight - differently or better than a Rosharan could. I think it does not work the way you think it would. You are not supposed to take in Stormlight and hold it. You are supposed to take in Stormlight and let it do its work to heal whatever needs to be healed, or power, whatever needs to be powered to give you a week of life. The Stormlight gets used immediately. It's like eating or drinking - you eat your steak, the steak is gone, but you got the calories. At some point you spend the calories and need to get another steak. The case of Vasher is that he needs to get his "calories" on a very tight schedule. But with the abundance of charged spheres, and assuming a charitable Stormlight-to-Breath rate (which is probably why he is on Roshar), he is good to go and holding Investiture is not needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+robardin he/him Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 1 hour ago, emailanimal said: I think it does not work the way you think it would. You are not supposed to take in Stormlight and hold it. You are supposed to take in Stormlight and let it do its work to heal whatever needs to be healed, or power, whatever needs to be powered to give you a week of life. The Stormlight gets used immediately. It's like eating or drinking - you eat your steak, the steak is gone, but you got the calories. At some point you spend the calories and need to get another steak. The case of Vasher is that he needs to get his "calories" on a very tight schedule. But with the abundance of charged spheres, and assuming a charitable Stormlight-to-Breath rate (which is probably why he is on Roshar), he is good to go and holding Investiture is not needed. Right, I agree, Stormlight on Roshar is generally a use it or leak it thing. I was suggesting that the very nature of a Nalthian is to stockpile Breaths indefinitely, and so a Returned who can "convert" Stormlight into Breaths for purposes of powering their unique Investiture driven metabolism perhaps could convert it into the same kind of Breath-power needed to Awaken things on Nalthis, as Breath is used for both things there. A walking Investiture battery, if you will, who could harvest cheap Stormlight, stockpile it, and hop away... In fact, the hint that Hoid now has (recently, for him) attained perfect pitch may not be because he has the Second Heightening (200 Breaths). Unless Nalthian Breaths specifically are needed as the "flavor" of Investiture for Heightening - which the reverse conversion, where Stormlight suffices for a Breath requirement, seems to contradict - it could be that it's the nature of a Nalthian to "climb the Heightening ladder" via Investiture, due to their base spark coming from Endowment. What am I getting at? That maybe Hoid has acquired the FIFTH Heightening... By virtue of getting a tiny splinter of Endowment when a Returned somehow decided to give Hoid his/her Divine Breath. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenBossanova Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 What interests me most about Vasher on Roshar, is that each Returned is sent back for a reason. Is that reason he came back, the conflict on Roshar right now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emailanimal he/him Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 2 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said: Is that reason he came back, the conflict on Roshar right now? This is an excellent question to Brandon. It is possible that Endowment Returned him for something that he has successfully avoided doing, because he is Vasher. It is also possible that Vasher is Endowment's long game for when Odium comes too close. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUQ he/him Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 13 minutes ago, emailanimal said: It is possible that Endowment Returned him for something that he has successfully avoided doing, because he is Vasher. It is also possible that Vasher is Endowment's long game for when Odium comes too close. This is going off-topic a bit, but we don't know enough about Edgli to say why she Returned Vasher. Another possibility is that she thought that Vasher was too clever to lose, so she Returned him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 19 minutes ago, JUQ said: This is going off-topic a bit, but we don't know enough about Edgli to say why she Returned Vasher. Another possibility is that she thought that Vasher was too clever to lose, so she Returned him. Note that we don't know whether the name of Endowment's vessel is Edgli, so it probably isn't best to refer to Endowment by that name. Unless there has been a recent WoB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emailanimal he/him Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 3 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said: Note that we don't know whether the name of Endowment's vessel is Edgli, Yes, we do. Brandon has coughed this one up not too long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 1 minute ago, emailanimal said: Yes, we do. Brandon has coughed this one up not too long ago. AU Signings? You have a link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emailanimal he/him Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 5 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said: AU Signings? You have a link? I checked Theoryland and it is not on it. It is recent, but not like two days ago recent. Might have been JordanCon, or some other pre-AU event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 2 minutes ago, emailanimal said: I checked Theoryland and it is not on it. It is recent, but not like two days ago recent. Might have been JordanCon, or some other pre-AU event. I ran a search of the forum and nothing pertinent came up. I'm going to take your word with a grain of salt unless something comes up, considering how close-lipped Brandon has been about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emailanimal he/him Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said: I ran a search of the forum and nothing pertinent came up. I'm going to take your word with a grain of salt unless something comes up, considering how close-lipped Brandon has been about it. Feel free. Pretty certain I saw it, but writing something else at the moment, so cannot do an immediate search. On the other hand, Coppermind has a reference: Edited December 13, 2016 by emailanimal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 4 minutes ago, emailanimal said: Feel free. Pretty certain I saw it, but writing something else at the moment, so cannot do an immediate search. On the other hand, Coppermind has a reference: Thanks. Weird, it's not recent at all and has been around for as long as I've been on the shard and it's the first I've seen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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