Scrutiny Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 From this quote Venli didn’t flinch. “The humans have Surgebinders.” “Perhaps not. It could have been an Honorblade.” This definitely supports the theory that Szeth carries an honor blade. Does this also mean that Heralds cannot surgebind without their blades? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 We don't know if Heralds can Surgebind without their Blades - Darkness invests, but he was one of the possibilities for the Herald who went back for his Honorblade. Shardblades also 'bind' to your soul, like the sprenbond, so you could see it as the spren mimicking what Honor did with his Honorblades. As for Szeth, yeah, this all-but-confirms him as Surgebinding due to an Honorblade. The Parshendi knew about his Blade in all likelyhood, they had to know about his abilities. They couldn't have expected someone without Shardplate to assassinate the King without Surgebinding. I was never a fan of the theory (I preferred Odium granting the Surgebinding) before, but I'm fully behind it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremen Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 I was pretty much certain Szeth had an honorblade already which granted his abilities, still it is nice to have confirmation if indirectly. The consequences of the Listeners knowing honorblades confer surgebinding abilities means they had to know Szeth carried it. How much do they know of Shin then? Is this why they abandoned his oathstone? Did they not want to have anything more to do with someone carrying an honorblade? How did they find him in the first place? Do the Shin have other honorblades? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) Not quite confirmation, but definitely strong support. Eshonai expresses doubts about the accuracy of at least some of their songs. Recall, this is an oral tradition and we are looking at a 4500 year-old game of telephone. Edited January 28, 2014 by Shardlet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Recall, this is an oral tradition and we are looking at a 4500 year-old game of telephone. The listeners owned Szeth for a while and they knew enough about him that they reasonably assumed he could take on a full Shardbearer and tons of men to assassinate Gavilar. It might be an oral tradition, but I think they would have confirmed things in Szeth's case. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daishi5 Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Yay, support for one of my favorite theories. I completely missed this when I read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkchaitu Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 I am not sure if Szeth's blade is indeed a honorblade. His blade is described as "long and thin, edged on both sides, smaller than most others". Also the chapter icons show a blade that is simple and not as honorblades are described - honorblades are described as "Each was a masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns." I am not sure if that icon was deliberately pictured wrong to mislead but I doubt it. Also I seem to recall that the honorblades were long (longer than shardblades) but I cant seem to find any quotes for it. I am not confided that I recall that information accurately though. I would appreciate it if you can point me to source of information as to why you think that Szeth's blade is an honorblade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrutiny Posted January 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 I am not sure if that icon was deliberately pictured wrong to mislead but I doubt it. Also I seem to recall that the honorblades were long (longer than shardblades) but I cant seem to find any quotes for it. I am not confided that I recall that information accurately though. I would appreciate it if you can point me to source of information as to why you think that Szeth's blade is an honorblade. Link to old thread about this here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkchaitu Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Ohk, thanks Scrutiny. I missed that. But then I am wondering about the description of Szeth's blade. Seems so bland compared to honorblades . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chlehrma Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 It is possible that the heralds can surgebind without their blade and the blade just works like a hemalugic all spike by doubling their strength. Also, we can now be fairly certain that Szeth's blade is Jezrein's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 The listeners owned Szeth for a while and they knew enough about him that they reasonably assumed he could take on a full Shardbearer and tons of men to assassinate Gavilar. It might be an oral tradition, but I think they would have confirmed things in Szeth's case. I don't doubt that they new he had a shardblade. I am less sure that they new he could surgebind. Their feelings about surgebinding seem to suggest that this would not have set well with them. If they new he had an Honorblade, it seems likely that that would have been mentioned in the conversation between Eshonai and her sister. It seems entirely too convenient that they happened to have in their service an assassin who had these capabilities in their retinue at the time they decided that Gavilar needed to die. There is a lot more to this aspect of the story that we don't have yet (and likely won't until book 3). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) I don't doubt that they new he had a shardblade. I am less sure that they new he could surgebind. Their feelings about surgebinding seem to suggest that this would not have set well with them. If they new he had an Honorblade, Szeth had no Shardplate, so I don't think sending him as an assassin would be a very good idea unless they knew he could Surgebind. You're right though that it is very uncertain. it seems likely that that would have been mentioned in the conversation between Eshonai and her sister. I disagree here. I think Eshonai and her sister mentioning it at all would have seemed like forced exposition. Imagine if every time Dalinar talked said Adolin's name he said "Adolin, my son", as if people forgot he was Dalinar's kid. Eshonai and her sister talking about Szeth's Honorblade would be similar. If both Eshonai and her sister know about Szeth's Honorblade, then there would be no reason to further elaborate when talking about Honorblades. The fact that they talk about Honorblades as being real and granting Surgebinding is slight evidence that they know Szeth has one. It seems entirely too convenient that they happened to have in their service an assassin who had these capabilities in their retinue at the time they decided that Gavilar needed to die. There is a lot more to this aspect of the story that we don't have yet (and likely won't until book 3). I agree that we don't know very much and need more information. Book 3 is going to be a long, long wait. Edited January 28, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isomere Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Perhaps an Honorblade can take different shapes depending on the wielder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) Perhaps an Honorblade can take different shapes depending on the wielder? That would make sense. Returned in Warbreaker have their physical appearance changed (or change it themselves?), so it seems there's a certain bit of malleability based on how you're viewed when large amounts of Investiture are involved. People expect Kaladin to have a spear (because he's a darkeyes), so he picks up an Honorblade and it becomes a guisarme or something. Szeth's blade being 'smaller' would also fit in with him being viewed as an assassin. Edited January 28, 2014 by Moogle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skavoovee Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 I'm assuming that, just as the relative magnificence of the Knights Radiant's plate/blades faded when they discarded them, so to would an honorblade not look as radical when being wielded by someone who is not a Herald. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duskshard he/him Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 I was pretty much certain Szeth had an honorblade already which granted his abilities, still it is nice to have confirmation if indirectly. The consequences of the Listeners knowing honorblades confer surgebinding abilities means they had to know Szeth carried it. How much do they know of Shin then? Is this why they abandoned his oathstone? Did they not want to have anything more to do with someone carrying an honorblade? How did they find him in the first place? Do the Shin have other honorblades? Maybe Darkness and the nervous guy were the previous holders of his oathstone and they gave him to the Listeners for the purpose of killing the King. Maybe that was what was being referred to here. “I don’t like this. What we’ve done was wrong. That creature carries my lord’s own Blade. We shouldn’t have let him keep it. He—” 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Maybe Darkness and the nervous guy were the previous holders of his oathstone and they gave him to the Listeners for the purpose of killing the King. Maybe that was what was being referred to here. Yeah, I am beginning to think that Szeth came into the service of of the Parshendi the day of the treaty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macen he/him Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 We don't know if Heralds can Surgebind without their Blades - Darkness invests, but he was one of the possibilities for the Herald who went back for his Honorblade. Shardblades also 'bind' to your soul, like the sprenbond, so you could see it as the spren mimicking what Honor did with his Honorblades. As for Szeth, yeah, this all-but-confirms him as Surgebinding due to an Honorblade. The Parshendi knew about his Blade in all likelyhood, they had to know about his abilities. They couldn't have expected someone without Shardplate to assassinate the King without Surgebinding. I was never a fan of the theory (I preferred Odium granting the Surgebinding) before, but I'm fully behind it now. What moogle said... *hangs head in shame* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday he/him Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) I am not sure if Szeth's blade is indeed a honorblade. His blade is described as "long and thin, edged on both sides, smaller than most others". Also the chapter icons show a blade that is simple and not as honorblades are described - honorblades are described as "Each was a masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns." I noticed this as well, but it was Taln's Blade I picked up on. Described as a simple long silver spike. I think the idea is supposed to be beauty in simplicity rather than ornamentation. But our source was Kalak, so IDK. Maybe Darkness and the nervous guy were the previous holders of his oathstone and they gave him to the Listeners for the purpose of killing the King. Maybe that was what was being referred to here. This doesn't add up to me. Szeth specifically states that the Stone Shamans will come for his Blade when he dies. (How do they know when that happens anyway?) So he had the Blade prior to leaving Shinovar. Other wise they wouldn't know to come get it. Szeth was traded to Tovbek who traded him to some one else, who traded him to we don't know how many middle parties. At some point, Szeth belonged to Jasnah' s assassin. Who traded him shortly before the Treaty signing. The Weeper was likely in the Kholinar area when that happened. So Szeth may have entered Parshendi service just before the Treaty, but I doubt Darkness ever owned him or had any part of the assassination. If he had an issue with Szeth carrying the Blade, he could have not have ordered him to give it up. He could have killed him for it though, regicide is usually a capital punishment This however still makes me wonder HOW he/they knew he had the Honorblade. There has to be done kind of Stormlight radar. Yeah, I am beginning to think that Szeth came into the service of of the Parshendi the day of the treaty. Edit: woops! ^ this ^ was supposed to be included in my response to DuskShard Edited January 28, 2014 by DocHoliday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colby Jack he/him Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) Sprens + Bond = Knight Radiants Powers Herald + Bond = Herald Powers I guess the two are similar enough to mirror each other, like Honor had claimed. EDIT: Sorry for the typo. I was really sleepy, I think. Edited January 30, 2014 by Colby Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummi he/him Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) Sprens + Bond = Knight Radiants Powers Honorblade + Bond = Herald Powers I guess the two are similar enough to mirror each other, like Honor had claimed. bond + honorblade = ??? Edited January 28, 2014 by lummi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser he/him Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) The Honorblade description does not refer to Jezrien's, Kalak's or Taln's, only the seven for the Heralds that are already gone. I am not sure if Szeth's blade is indeed a honorblade. His blade is described as "long and thin, edged on both sides, smaller than most others". Also the chapter icons show a blade that is simple and not as honorblades are described - honorblades are described as "Each was a masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns." Edited January 28, 2014 by hoser 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon he/him Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 I don't doubt that they new he had a shardblade. I am less sure that they new he could surgebind. Their feelings about surgebinding seem to suggest that this would not have set well with them. If they new he had an Honorblade, it seems likely that that would have been mentioned in the conversation between Eshonai and her sister. It seems entirely too convenient that they happened to have in their service an assassin who had these capabilities in their retinue at the time they decided that Gavilar needed to die. There is a lot more to this aspect of the story that we don't have yet (and likely won't until book 3). I think it sounds like a great opportunity for them, actually! They realize they cannot let Gavilar live, so they send a Surgebider, one that they purposely choose not to disguise, to wreck the place and kill the king. Worst case scenario, a Surgebinder dies at the hands of the king's guard. Best case - the king dies, and Surgebinders are feared throughout the lands. Basically guaranteeing that Surgebinding will be looked at in a negative light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natans he/him Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 After we learned for sure that honorblades give especial power to their users, Honor comment that the spren replicate the power that he gave to his heralds make much more sense. The spren must have emulated the exact I bet that every Herald are the pinacle of their surge, think ho wmany ages they had to polish their power, and more Honor blade are highly invested objects. What make me wonder Brandon said that there are three kind of swords. We know two (normal and honor) what are the third ? Sidenote: Adolin talk with his sword made me think, you guys think that blades have some kind "sentient" ? Well, would be funny to see Adolin learn the true name of his sword and to achieve a Bankai =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 The three kinds of Blades are 1) Honorblades, 2) "common", modern-day, Shardblades, and 3) the Shardblades shown in Dalinar's visions, when they glowed and were wielded by Radiants, before they were abandoned to become #2. This theory was all but confirmed based on text in WoK - there really wasn't any other way to read the fact that Szeth's eyes turn bright blue whenever he summons his Blade. How he got the Blade is still a mystery, though my theory is that the Stone Shamans and Shin traditions are heavily involved. As to how the Parshendi got his oathstone, my theory is that Darkness gave it to them somehow the night of the feast, along with making sure they found out about whatever it was that Gavilar was doing. Putting my bets on it now: the next 3 books will show Prologue points of view for Eshonai, someone else, and lastly.....Gavilar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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