Semiweekly WoB #1: Hoid is Immortal

[Ecthelion III he/him]

I've been looking through the old interviews and have come across some really interesting things. The cosmere buffs around here probably already know all the Q&A information, but for the rest of us, I'd like to share a couple of them a week and present a few questions for discussion.

Also, is this the right forum, or would this be better in General Brandon?

Quote

If Hoid got beheaded, would his body grow a new head?

Yes.

What if Hoid got cut by a shardblade?

The Shardblade cuts the soul and what Hoid does heals the soul.

Where might Hoid have come across this kind of power? Have we seen anything like this before?

Edited November 27, 2016 by Ookthelion III

[Spoolofwhool]

This power isn't that impressive actually. Gold feruchemy, stormlight augmentation (internalizing stormlight and using it to regenerate and refine), and binding of the surge of regrowth can all achieve similar effects. Considering how widespread variants on using investiture to regenerate physical and spiritual is, it's not that surprising he picked up at least one version throughout the millennia.

Keep in mind though that these would not make someone truly immortal. None of these techniques prevent death from aging; doing so requires other changes to the spiritual which these do not do at a basic level. 

[Djarskublar he/him]

I like the idea of having threads like this. Helps the newer lurkers learn what might seem to be common knowledge to the rest of us. Cosmere Theories sounds fine for location to me, unless someone else has a problem with it.

I have to cautiously disagree with you @Spoolofwhool. For him to not be concerned about having his head chopped off would take more than standard immortality. I am mixing this WoB with the in text bit where he isn't afraid of Jasnah at all. With gold compounding, I can totally see it, but normal gold Ferrings or people with lots of Light probably wouldn't be able to grow a storming head... They take too much time, or you lose too much power to a stronger tap. A suregebinder may not be able to even hold that much Light. Lopen got almost nothing added to his stump from his sphere.

I feel like he has to have something abnormally powerful (read: a hack like compounding) to survive it. Maybe he is just incredibly Invested, so he can just straight up resist Blades anyway. Who knows.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

To be fair, we know he's a feruchemist and we have seen him use allomancy... So he's probably Fullborn.

[Spoolofwhool]

8 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

I like the idea of having threads like this. Helps the newer lurkers learn what might seem to be common knowledge to the rest of us. Cosmere Theories sounds fine for location to me, unless someone else has a problem with it.

I have to cautiously disagree with you @Spoolofwhool. For him to not be concerned about having his head chopped off would take more than standard immortality. I am mixing this WoB with the in text bit where he isn't afraid of Jasnah at all. With gold compounding, I can totally see it, but normal gold Ferrings or people with lots of Light probably wouldn't be able to grow a storming head... They take too much time, or you lose too much power to a stronger tap. A suregebinder may not be able to even hold that much Light. Lopen got almost nothing added to his stump from his sphere.

I feel like he has to have something abnormally powerful (read: a hack like compounding) to survive it. Maybe he is just incredibly Invested, so he can just straight up resist Blades anyway. Who knows.

True. I never said it was common or possible though, just that they could do things like that, and that overall, abilities of regeneration are not uncommon. Yes, regeneration of that level is, but that's a different question. Also, Lopen getting near nothing doesn't mean much. The sphere was basically dun. Please don't bother with "cautiously disagree". Just point out that my statement cannot be easily generalized to every person with the abilities I listed and move on.

I doubt he has anything extrapowerful. Regenerating the soul doesn't take much as Kaladin could do it. Also, I doubt he's invested enough to straight up stop a blade.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Ecthelion III he/him]

Out of context, this is rather humorous.

 

Quote

If Hoid got beheaded, would his body grow a new head? Yes.

 

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I doubt he has anything extrapowerful.

 

Edited November 27, 2016 by Ookthelion III

[Spoolofwhool]

2 minutes ago, Ookthelion III said:

Out of context, this is rather humorous.

 

 

Very much so. Just add it to the list of things taken out of context on the Shard. We should make a list if it doesn't exist.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[natc]

The problem with gold feruchemy being that as far as physical bodies work, conscious thought is logically connected to the head, so the body being able to tap at all with no head would be bizarre compared to making the head grow a body. Reconnecting a severed head should be simple though, but you'll probably have to do it mid-severing before your head comes clean off.

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, natc said:

The problem with gold feruchemy being that as far as physical bodies work, conscious thought is logically connected to the head, so the body being able to tap at all with no head would be bizarre compared to making the head grow a body. Reconnecting a severed head should be simple though, but you'll probably have to do it mid-severing before your head comes clean off.

True, but the same argument could be made about any of the other methods. In any case, even decapitated, there's enough oxygen in the brain to keep things running for several seconds though, so someone alert enough could start the process even after decapitation. Once they do, the regeneration would keep them conscious to continue it. Also, yes, they wouldn't be physically connected, but they would still be spiritually and cognitively connected, and that is what matters more in this case. The body would regrow the head since the soul would still be more attached to the body then the head, and chances are that the body is where the investiture is, such as a goldminds.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Yata he/him]

3 hours ago, natc said:

The problem with gold feruchemy being that as far as physical bodies work, conscious thought is logically connected to the head, so the body being able to tap at all with no head would be bizarre compared to making the head grow a body. Reconnecting a severed head should be simple though, but you'll probably have to do it mid-severing before your head comes clean off.

Well in the context where you had a separate Cognitive Aspect and Spiritual Aspect is not to weird...After all a "dead feruchemist" may actually still tap his metalmind while he is still in the realms, but on another point, Surgebinder can't auto-heal himself if he is no longer proprely alive (I think it's because a lethal damage, would release the bond and the Surgebinder can't no more use his abilities).

The problem with Hoid is another in my mind...Where did the Investiture needed come from ? In almost all the cases we see, the restoring/healing is quite expensive in Raw Investiture. How did Hoid manage to have this ?....I may understand He had an infinite amount of it, IF he used the Lerasium to become a Mistborn and obtain a direct line from Preservation's Power hacked to use it to fuel other things...But before that ? It's possible that his "immortality"/"Soul regeneration" is a recent upgrade to his powers ?

[Spoolofwhool]

10 minutes ago, Yata said:

The problem with Hoid is another in my mind...Where did the Investiture needed come from ? In almost all the cases we see, the restoring/healing is quite expensive in Raw Investiture. How did Hoid manage to have this ?....I may understand He had an infinite amount of it, IF he used the Lerasium to become a Mistborn and obtain a direct line from Preservation's Power hacked to use it to fuel other things...But before that ? It's possible that his "immortality"/"Soul regeneration" is a recent upgrade to his powers ?

I was considering that as well. My guess is a metalmind or another investiture-storing object which he can either naturally tap, or has hacked in order to tap for investiture for healing. Otherwise, as you say he might've create a direct connection to a shard or a general investiture reservoir like the Dor or the Well of Ascenscion to draw investiture from that, but that honestly feels less likely. 

[Yata he/him]

I used the example of Allomancy because it's the only source we know, that may actually be used to tap Investiture from everywhere...Of course He may use a source unkown to us, but generally high-Invesiture Shardworlds have raw Investiture integrated in their ecology. Hoid has showed us to be able to use his "healing" on roshar, this quite remove all this kind of investiture because he would be unable to "keep the reserves"...I will point to a low-magic Shardworld, like Scadrial or Sel (well Sel isn't really a candidate for its location-dependacy problem) where the Investiture is directly tapped from other realms on demand.

[Djarskublar he/him]

Well, assuming all the Shardworlds other than Nalthis and Roshar (not an excellent assumption, but practical for this argument) are dishardic, there are at least 4 more major Shardworlds. Three of the four we have seen so far have solid access to some healing power on screen. If we make another shaky assumption, then we can say there should be around another three available. Just from major Shardworlds.

Regardless, I would be extremely surprised if there were no other good healing powers in the Cosmere besides the ones we have seen. Investiture is just good at healing.

This all leads into my point: Hoid may have a healing ability from another Shardworld we haven't seen yet. Heck, all of his abilities could come from different worlds, and all the stuff we've seen him do is just similar enough to be Red Herrings. Not that that is likely, but theoretically possible.

[Spoolofwhool]

25 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

This all leads into my point: Hoid may have a healing ability from another Shardworld we haven't seen yet. Heck, all of his abilities could come from different worlds, and all the stuff we've seen him do is just similar enough to be Red Herrings. Not that that is likely, but theoretically possible.

I agree. He's probably healing using a method we haven't seen before. That, or possibly he's hacked himself to the root of how all regeneration abilities work and can just consume investiture to heal himself without going through a specific mechanism inherent to a system, and perhaps regardless of the form of investiture. 

Also true, a number of his abilities, except for ones where we're told he has a specific magic, could be from other systems. The only exception to that is Perfect Pitch, since I'm fairly certain that's due to biochroma. 

[Dawnshard]

I think most of his "power" comes from blending the systems. We saw how powerful Feruchemy powered by Allomancy is. I think he has access to many systems and the blending of more than one is what he draws from. Think about it if you can power Feruchemy with say two systems in a weird hack then the power gained might do even stranger things.

[Yata he/him]

5 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

Well, assuming all the Shardworlds other than Nalthis and Roshar (not an excellent assumption, but practical for this argument) are dishardic, there are at least 4 more major Shardworlds. Three of the four we have seen so far have solid access to some healing power on screen. If we make another shaky assumption, then we can say there should be around another three available. Just from major Shardworlds.

It's a bit a weird assumption because Roshar is actually a dishardic shardworld and from recent informations, seems that dishardic planets are quite rare XD

[Spoolofwhool]

27 minutes ago, Yata said:

It's a bit a weird assumption because Roshar is actually a dishardic shardworld and from recent informations, seems that dishardic planets are quite rare XD

It's interesting though, because there are 16 shards but only ten major shardworlds, then unless a number of shards aren't investing in worlds, there are 6 dishardic worlds and 4 monoshardic. So I guess since they're rare, either there's a world where a bunch of shards have invested, leaving most of the other major shardworlds monoshardic, or there are just a number of shards not investing in worlds like Odium.

[djammmer]

23 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

This power isn't that impressive actually.

I agree.  Power to heal doesn't seem to be that impressive... even if it is a severed head... even if it is one's OWN severed head.   Ok, a little impressive.  But this is much more intriguing:

On ‎11‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 3:03 PM, Ookthelion III said:

The Shardblade cuts the soul and what Hoid does heals the soul.

We know physical or cognitive reflect the spiritual, and it's 'easier' to get physical things to change back to their cognitive or spiritual truths, then away from them.   That's why shardblades are so dangerous... is they sever things in the spiritual realm.   The fact that Hoid can heal things there is very interesting.

Edited November 27, 2016 by djammmer

[Spoolofwhool]

Just now, djammmer said:

I agree.  Power to heal doesn't seem to be that impressive... even if it is a severed head... even if it is one's OWN severed head.   Ok, a little impressive.  But this is much more intriguing:

 

Not really, because all the systems I listed are known to heal the soul as well, with the exception of Regrowth, except that I have no doubt that it can as well. 

[djammmer]

4 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Not really, because all the systems I listed are known to heal the soul as well, with the exception of Regrowth, except that I have no doubt that it can as well. 

I'm happy to be wrong - but I can't think off the top of my head of these examples.  Where do we see magic healing the soul?  Do we even know of anything that can damage the soul in the physical - except a shardblade?    I probably need to do some research... but just off the top of my head, that's what I thought made shardblades so unique.

[AndrolGenhald]

33 minutes ago, djammmer said:

I'm happy to be wrong - but I can't think off the top of my head of these examples.  Where do we see magic healing the soul?  Do we even know of anything that can damage the soul in the physical - except a shardblade?    I probably need to do some research... but just off the top of my head, that's what I thought made shardblades so unique.

Kaladin heals his own soul's connection to his arm with Stormlight, so it's not much of a stretch to think that Regrowth could do the same for others. Coppermind specifically mentions it being able to heal the soul, although I can't find mention of it skimming through the interlude it references.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, djammmer said:

I'm happy to be wrong - but I can't think off the top of my head of these examples.  Where do we see magic healing the soul?  Do we even know of anything that can damage the soul in the physical - except a shardblade?    I probably need to do some research... but just off the top of my head, that's what I thought made shardblades so unique.

Kaladin heals his arm with stormlight after Szeth severs his soul. Brandon has stated that gold feruchemy can heal the soul as well. Also, hemalurgy damages the soul, we just haven't seen it really happen in a significant way since the person usually dies anyways.

Quote

KURKISTAN (GOODREADS)

Could Miles heal back his Allomancy if it was spiked out of him?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, he could not. He would no longer be an Allomancer. Also, he'd probably be dead.

KURKISTAN

I'd thought maybe he could just do some super-tapping from his existing Health in his goldminds (since he'd still have his Feruchemy)...

BRANDON SANDERSON

Oh, I see what you're asking. Using Feruchemy to heal the removed portion of soul. That's actually plausible, not so different from healing other kinds of soul-wounds. If he survived, then yes, this actually might work. (That's why I get for reading the questions so quickly.)

[Source]

 

[Yata he/him]

8 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Not really, because all the systems I listed are known to heal the soul as well, with the exception of Regrowth, except that I have no doubt that it can as well. 

I think regrowth too may heal the soul, after all in the original ending of WoR we see actually this (yeah the scene was changed, but this circumstance remains canon as magical mechanics)

[Argent he/him]

On 11/26/2016 at 7:18 PM, Djarskublar said:

I am mixing this WoB with the in text bit where he isn't afraid of Jasnah at all.

Not only that - he isn't afraid of her Shardblade.

[Djarskublar he/him]

9 minutes ago, Argent said:

Not only that - he isn't afraid of her Shardblade.

That's what I meant, really Shardblades wouldn't be all that scary to the well prepared. On the other hand, he was only unafraid of the Blade. Now that I think about it, she might be extremely dangerous to him. Depending on just how much Breath he has, she might be able to Soulcast him... Even if she needs to be sitting with him in a Highstorm, it should be possible. She's done it to random mooks before without too much trouble, so with a lot more power, even Hoid should fall to the might of Soulcasting.