About the 10 gas giants [AU Spoilers]

[Jingpoo]

I believe that the purpose of the star maps were to give us small pieces of information.  I think that there are a few things to consider.

1.  Odium is trapped in the Roshar system.
2. Honor set the trap.
3. The Heralds are of Honor.

So I believe that the ten gas giants very well could be the trap.  We now know that at least one battle between shards was fought in the different realms (Either the Spiritual, Cognitive, or both).  It is safe to guess that the gas giants could act as a barrier in different realms.  Since in the Cognitive Realm water is land, and land is glass beads,  I think that it is safe to guess gas also presents differently.

[Jaconis]

29 minutes ago, Jingpoo said:

I believe that the purpose of the star maps were to give us small pieces of information.  I think that there are a few things to consider.

1.  Odium is trapped in the Roshar system.
2. Honor set the trap.
3. The Heralds are of Honor.

So I believe that the ten gas giants very well could be the trap.  We now know that at least one battle between shards was fought in the different realms (Either the Spiritual, Cognitive, or both).  It is safe to guess that the gas giants could act as a barrier in different realms.  Since in the Cognitive Realm water is land, and land is glass beads,  I think that it is safe to guess gas also presents differently.

It's possible. I should say that I'm on the side that they are there to help contain Odium, and are related to the heralds in some way, but Kriss has this to say about them. 

"A series of enormous gas giants crowd the outer reaches of the system, though nobody has been able to observe them directly, as their manifestation on Shadesmar is minor."

If they don't have much "weight" in the cognitive, I'm not sure how great of a containment decice they would make...

[Amanuensis he/him]

Unless they're spiritual barriers, which is something we don't know much about. But given they're on the outside of the system, I don't see how they could prevent Odium from constantly Desolating Roshar, which lies on the other side. So while they might play a part in preventing Rayse from leaving the system, I don't think they're the complete answer to the Oathpact.

[Zmann966 he/him]

7 hours ago, Argent said:

 

I think it's incorrect to claim that the ten gas giants are named after the Heralds - at least not directly. The planets bear names that match the names of numbers in the Alethi language; they are literally called One, Two, Three, and so on. What is interesting is that the Heralds' names share linguistic root with those same numbers, but considering that we know some of the Heralds' original names don't sound very much like the numbers (e.g. Nale), I think it's likely that the Alethi language and culture warped the Heralds' names to look more similar to the numbers' names. In other words, I believe the names of the numbers came before the (modified) names of the Heralds, and not the other way around - though it would've made a certain amount of sense for the Alethi to change their language to emulate the Heralds' names. 

With this in mind, I am reasonably confident that the gas giants were named after the numbers 1-10, not after the Heralds.

That was basically my exact argument with opposite nomenclature origins... So yeah, I approve... Partially.

However, We know that the Heralds (and their names) predate the current Alethkar culture, as we see Heralds conversing with each other using (versions of) those names during the end of the Heraldic Epochs... And I just doubt that they would name themselves after the Alethela/Vorin numbering system. I just think it follows the base entagled-ten we find all over Roshar, and if there's one thing that really survived through the Desolations, its the Heralds. It's said Alethela and the Silver Kingdoms survived through the Desolations, but if the Heralds return expecting technology to have been beaten back into pre-bronze-age, the nations and their cultures have to be quite fluid as well.

It just feels like "language" itself is far more mutable, and would stem from prehistoric observations (like the 10 Heralds and all the other base-10 laws of nature Roshar has) and as such, Heralds > Number System > Planet names.

But yeah, I don't think it has any deeper connotations than simply the Astronomer growing lazy and saying "Yeah, we'll just label those One through Ten."

Edited November 29, 2016 by Zmann966

[Amanuensis he/him]

While the planets having no significance is certainly a possibility, I personally doubt that's the case. Brandon seldom writes coincidences like that. And besides, there's the whole fact that on the map, each planet has the actual glyph for the ten orders of the Knights Radiant's inside them, which is more than what Ashyn and Braize have. In fact, every planet that we have a story take place on so far has a symbol annotated on their orb for them (Sel, both Scadrials, Taldain, Threnody, and First of the Sun). That alone makes me thing they're important / abnormal.

So yeah. I think they don't have much of a presence in the Cognitive because there are little-to-no lifeforms there, but that in the Spiritual Realm, they are vastly large and act as barriers to prevent Odium from leaving the Rosharian System. It seems likely to me that each one is bound to their relevant Herald in some way, though I'm not exactly sure how.

I'd be tempted to ask if the planet Tanat had more of a presence in the Cognitive Realm before Taln returned to Roshar.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Amanuensis

[Zmann966 he/him]

7 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

While the planets having no significance is certainly a possibility, I personally doubt that's the case. Brandon seldom writes coincidences like that. And besides, there's the whole fact that on the map, each planet has the actual glyph for the ten orders of the Knights Radiant's inside them, which is more than what Ashyn and Braize have. In fact, every planet that we have a story take place on so far has a symbol annotated on their orb for them (Sel, both Scadrials, Taldain, Threnody, and First of the Sun). That alone makes me thing they're important / abnormal.

So yeah. I think they don't have much of a presence in the Cognitive because there are little-to-no lifeforms there, but that in the Spiritual Realm, they are vastly large and act as barriers to prevent Odium from leaving the Rosharian System. It's likely to me that each one is bound to their relevant Herald in some way.

We know that each Herald is associated with a gas, and that Stormlight is the "gaseous" form of investiture on Roshar... large extra-planetary orbs of such floating in orbit of the Roshar system is not too far in the realm of possibility, and as such never something to overlook.

[Amanuensis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Zmann966 said:

 

 

We know that each Herald is associated with a gas, and that Stormlight is the "gaseous" form of investiture on Roshar... large extra-planetary orbs of such floating in orbit of the Roshar system is not too far in the realm of possibility, and as such never something to overlook.

I must be unaware of this fact, though I am curious. Where was this confirmed / what gas is each herald associated with? I just thought it was Jesrien who was related to "translucent gas" and "air" while Nale was associated with with "opaque gas" / "smoke" / "fog".

Edited November 29, 2016 by Amanuensis

[Zmann966 he/him]

Just now, Amanuensis said:

I must be unaware of this fact, though I am curious. Where was this confirmed / what gas is each herald associated with? I just thought it was Jesrien who was related to "gas" and Nale with "opaque gas" / "smoke" / "fog".

You are correct, that it was I meant, which, I guess, diminishes the theory of a full 1-to-1 association, but it is still there in the form of gaseous investiture being one of the common three-parts of a Shard's "body" notably, the Spiritual aspect... I was trying to support you here! Now I'm going back to lazy astronomical notation and you can fend for yourself!

[Amanuensis he/him]

12 minutes ago, Zmann966 said:

 

 

 

 

You are correct, that it was I meant, which, I guess, diminishes the theory of a full 1-to-1 association, but it is still there in the form of gaseous investiture being one of the common three-parts of a Shard's "body" notably, the Spiritual aspect... I was trying to support you here! Now I'm going back to lazy astronomical notation and you can fend for yourself!

Oh, sorry about that  I just was interested in that particular bit of information, if it was true.

I could definitely see each of the ten planets being massive troves of gaseous investiture that was bound to each Herald by Honor and Cultivation, partly to trap Odium, but also partly to make them immortal / capable of being reborn. Maybe when the Heralds are alive, Odium's influence outside of Braize is limited, much like how (Wheel of Time Spoilers)

Spoiler

The Seven cuendillar Seals limit the Dark One's influence on Randland, and as they break, he's able to affect the world more.

and when the Heralds die, Odium intercepts their minds in the Cognitive Realm, where he then tortures them until they give up. This willingness to give up allows their souls to escape to their bound planet, where their bodies can be regrown, which gives Odium free reign on the inner system for a limited period of time, so that he can hopefully break whatever else is keeping him bound, which I reckon is Cultivation Herself.

I haven't necessarily thought through the mechanics of this, but it simultaneously explains the significance of ten planets, the reason why Heralds are powerful and ageless even without their Honorblades, in addition to how they are tortured / reborn.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Amanuensis

[djammmer]

10 hours ago, Argent said:

 

I think it's incorrect to claim that the ten gas giants are named after the Heralds - at least not directly. The planets bear names that match the names of numbers in the Alethi language; they are literally called One, Two, Three, and so on. What is interesting is that the Heralds' names share linguistic root with those same numbers, but considering that we know some of the Heralds' original names don't sound very much like the numbers (e.g. Nale), I think it's likely that the Alethi language and culture warped the Heralds' names to look more similar to the numbers' names. In other words, I believe the names of the numbers came before the (modified) names of the Heralds, and not the other way around - though it would've made a certain amount of sense for the Alethi to change their language to emulate the Heralds' names. 

With this in mind, I am reasonably confident that the gas giants were named after the numbers 1-10, not after the Heralds.

Although who says planets have to have only one name?  Even in our "earth" world... planets have different names in different languages.  And many of the older languages actually name the planets after "gods" (i.e. Jupiter, Mars, Neptune are all Roman Gods).   Chicken & Egg.   Surely someone in-world saw ten planets (or "moving stars in the sky") and named each one after the 10 heralds.  Or the ten essences...

 

[djammmer]

BTW - I'm willing to be there's some "in-world" event related to the alignment of planets... Especially if the planets are sometimes referred to by herald names.  "Ash is visiting (aligned) with Taln today." 

[djammmer]

9 minutes ago, djammmer said:

Although who says planets have to have only one name?  Even in our "earth" world... planets have different names in different languages.  And many of the older languages actually name the planets after "gods" (i.e. Jupiter, Mars, Neptune are all Roman Gods).   Chicken & Egg.   Surely someone in-world saw ten planets (or "moving stars in the sky") and named each one after the 10 heralds.  Or the ten essences...

 

And if the planets named for numbers... then since the Heralds are each associated with numbers (http://coppermind.net/wiki/Herald), then aren't each of the planets implicitly associated to a herald?

[BeskarKomrk he/him]

I really don't think the names of the gasgiants have anything more than a cultural connection to the Heralds. There generally aren't coincidences when it comes to the Cosmere, but not every piece of worldbuilding is related to the Shards or the Magic system. As somebody pointed out above, we also named the planets in our solar system after ancient gods. But there's no specific connection between those planets and the gods they're named for, and there's no reason there has to be on Roshar either. It's definitely possible that the planets play some role, but I don't see much evidence to support that yet. If we're taking bets on which planets in the system relate to the Oathpact, the Heralds, or the fact that Odium is trapped in the system, my money is on the three planets with sentient beings and a presence in the Cognitive Realm, especially the one of those planets that literally had two god-like beings Invested there. 

[Amanuensis he/him]

Once again, I'll bring up that those ten particular gas giants have the symbols of individual Orders of the Knight's Radiant on them. It's one thing to name the planets 1 - 10. It's another thing to use the symbols of what basically equate to medieval superheroes on them.

[Landis963 he/him]

8 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Once again, I'll bring up that those ten particular gas giants have the symbols of individual Orders of the Knight's Radiant on them. It's one thing to name the planets 1 - 10. It's another thing to use the symbols of what basically equate to medieval superheroes on them.

Aren't those glyphs the Vorin names of the heralds?  And therefore relate to the relevant Radiant Order, the number, and all the rest simultaneously? Also, this is the 17th Shard's system map, not one authored by the Rosharans themselves.  (I believe there's a WoB that says the Rosharans can't even see some of the outer gas giants?) 

Edited November 30, 2016 by Landis963

[Amanuensis he/him]

6 hours ago, Landis963 said:

Aren't those glyphs the Vorin names of the heralds?  And therefore relate to the relevant Radiant Order, the number, and all the rest simultaneously? Also, this is the 17th Shard's system map, not one authored by the Rosharans themselves.  (I believe there's a WoB that says the Rosharans can't even see some of the outer gas giants?) 

Hm. Someone else would have to answer that, as I'm not entirely sure. But on your second point, yes. That's a bit of my point. Guyn of the 17th Shard is the maker of these maps. The fact that planets like Braize, whom they know is inhabited by Odium, is not marked with a symbol, along with all the other various worlds that we know next-to-nothing about, yet those 10 particular Gas Giants all have those Glyphs imbedded in them, suggests to me that there's some kind of connection between them and the Heralds, or at least the Knights Radiant, and that the 17th Shard (or at least Guyn) is aware of it. To reference the exact quote:

Spoiler

"As empty as the Scadrian system seems, this one always feels crowded to me. A series of enormous gas giants crowd the outer reaches of the system, though nobody has been able to observe them directly, as their manifestation on Shadesmar is minor."

As Khriss says, the Rosharan System is unusually crowded, and I doubt Brandon is having her point it out because their existence is mundane. I propose that their manifestations on Shadesmar are minor because there is no life there; that they are giant spheres of Investiture, likely created by Honor (though perhaps by Adonalsium and hijacked by him, though I doubt it) for the purposes of the Oathpact. Instead, they are bound to the Heralds, hence why they haven't developed sentience of their own, and since all but Taln are on Roshar and he is stuck in the Cognitive Realm of Braize being tortured by Odium, there's nothing really to observe. Now, I think Guyn himself has a theory about these gas giants. I don't think he's the kind of guy to place symbols as important of those on a map arbitrarily. Whether he believes that they're connected to the Heralds or the Knights Radiant specifically, I can't say, but I personally think it's the Heralds themselves, as it would help explain their immortality, as well as a part of the reason why Odium is bound to begin with.

[Argent he/him]

10 hours ago, Landis963 said:

Aren't those glyphs the Vorin names of the heralds?

No, those are the glyphs the Alethi use to represent numbers. 

[Amanuensis he/him]

26 minutes ago, Argent said:

No, those are the glyphs the Alethi use to represent numbers. 

Alright, for clarification, since I seem to be confused...

Are you saying both the symbols inside the gas giants and the symbols on the far right are the numbers? I thought it was only the symbols on the far right.

[Spoolofwhool]

7 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Alright, for clarification, since I seem to be confused...

Are you saying both the symbols inside the gas giants and the symbols on the far right are the numbers? I thought it was only the symbols on the far right.

Inside are the symbols for the KR orders. Far right are the glyphs for numbers.

[Argent he/him]

No, that's right, I was thinking of the symbols on the side. They are the numbers. The ones inside the planets, as @Spoolofwhool correctly said, are the Radiant Orders' symbols. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Elhokar's Shardblade had simple versions of the KR Order Glyphs on it.

Quote

It was long and thin with a large crossguard, and was etched up the sides with the ten fundamental glyphs.

While there is likely some connection, it may not be a direct jump to the KR.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

11 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Elhokar's Shardblade had simple versions of the KR Order Glyphs on it.

While there is likely some connection, it may not be a direct jump to the KR.

This is a good point. We tend to refer the chart from the WoK endpapers as the "Surgebinding chart" but that isn't really what it is. The Double Eye of the Almighty is actually a symbolic representation of the Ten Essences and the Ten Surges. The Ten Fundamental Glyphs, which are commonly referred to as the Radiant Order glyphs, have a lot of things associated with them. The Orders are one, but they aren't the only one.

[Harakeke]

In the colorized version, the gas giants match the polestones that correspond with the numbers in the Ars Arcanum. I wonder if those planets might rain the associated gemstones, similarly to how astrophysicists speculate that gas giants in our solar system rain diamonds.

Another neat detail: the circle for the planet Roshar has a simplified icon for the Double Eye of the Almighty. In fact, all of the "POV" planets have a corresponding icon.

Edited December 3, 2016 by Harakeke