[Edgedancer Spoilers] Afterimages

[Stark]

5 minutes ago, Bromo_Sapien said:

Does this imply that Lift is more heavily invested than others? What about Nale; does he see the after-images and just not comment on them? I would imagine Heralds are more heavily invested than normal KRs and have some Connection to the CR via the Desolations. 

I think this implies not that Lift is more heavily invested, just that she has a stronger connection to the Cognitive Realm.  Wyndle has mentioned a few times that her connection to the Cognitive Realm is unusually strong, which he theorizes is part of what lets her touch him.  I believe he implies that in both the WoR interlude and the Ed novella (can anyone remember the exact pages of the quotes?).

 

To me what it implies is that Lift is not the only one who will be able to see the afterimages.  Her Cognitive Realm connection clearly makes it easier for her, so I don't think other Third Oath Radiants will be able to see them, but full Fifth Oath Knights, or Hoid, or any other Master class invested individual (Vasher, Kelsier, Vessels and Slivers) should be able to see the afterimages.

 

And that further convinces me that the afterimages have nothing to do with Nightblood.  Nightblood is a giant, black and silver, gleefully-evil-destroying red herring.

[Amanuensis]

Hm. I'd guess that normal KR's cannot.

Secret History and Hero of Ages Spoilers:

Spoiler

The fact that Brandon uses the term "sufficiently Invested" reminds me of how Kelsier is able to see partially into the Spiritual Realm when he flares Malatium to look into Rashek's past, and likewise with Elend at the climax of Hero of Ages when flaring Atium. In this case, it seems the Afterimages are associated with the Cognitive Realm instead, which I find intriguing. If these two things are indeed connected, than I think extremely Invested people would be able to see them as they currently are, but not many of the characters we know. Likely they'd have to be strong in a particular version of magic. That, or just be Shards, are holding a Shard's power temporarily, like Vin.

That being said, I personally believe that Szeth is bonding with Nightblood to become something akin to a Knights Radiant, but he will become one unlike any of the prexisting orders. I think that the proto-Skybreakers asking if he's going to fly with them is because they're assuming he can too, since he is one of Nale's apprentices. That or they're taunting him because they know he no longer can. Either way, since Szeth is bonding something entirely different than a Highspren, I don't believe he will be able to use the Gravitation Surge, or any other Surge, for that matter. I believe he will develop abilities unlike any that have been seen on Roshar before.

On that note, whether or not Szeth is going to have to speak Oaths to further his bond with Nightblood, I can't say for certain. I actually doubt it, to be honest, though it would be a fun thought experiment to come up with Oaths that pertain to Nightblood. I think that Szeth is going to end up adhering to the same Command that Nightblood was given; in other words, is going to adopt the purpose of "destroying evil." This is a part of the reason why I think Szeth will end up being the one who ends up defeating Odium, or at least, play a pivotal role in his defeat. Despite me rooting for Kaladin pulling through (mostly because I love Syl and don't want her to die), I do think it'd be a better story if Kaladin proved the Stormfather right by succumbing to his Hatred, thus becoming Odium's Champion, rather than Honor's. If one of the two halves ended with Kaladin and Szeth fighting again, and this time their roles reversed with Szeth ending up the victor, I would be pretty satisfied, honestly.

Back to the Afterimages. I disagree with them not being associated with Nightblood. I believe they're a part of the powers that Szeth is developing because of the bond he's forming with the sentient sword. I think that maybe as Szeth's bond gets stronger, he will be able to control these afterimages, either to create illusionary clones or even physical clones outright, to aid him future battles.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Amanuensis

[Stark]

@Amanuensis I agree and disagree with you.  I agree that Szeth will bond with Nightblood and become a pseudo radiant, either with a non-standard surge pairing (I don't know, gravitation and regrowth, for example [only two that came to mind quickly]) or with two new surges not on the current list.  I think this will be due to Nightblood being the equivalent of a spren Cyborg.  I also think that through the bond, Nightblood will evolve, gaining greater cognitive abilities, like Syl did, and beyond what it was capable of in Warbreaker, as well as some shape changing ability.

 

I also get the impression that the Oath's for Szeth/Nightblood will differ greatly from any other order, and may revolve around the destruction of evil.

 

But as for whether the afterimages are caused by Nightblood or not, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree and RAFO for now.  Unless someone can pin down a WoB.

 

I do love to hate your Kaladin/Szeth reversal theory.  I don't want that to happen, but honestly I could see it happening and be satisfied with that outcome.  But I don't want to see Syl die again and really hope Kaladin has learnt his lesson for good this time.

[Amanuensis]

Well, hm. Let's work through the potential causes for the afterimages real quick:

• The afterimages are a byproduct of Szeth dying and being brought back to life. This is a distinct possibility, and might very well be the answer. We've yet to see any other character go through this scenario, and I can't think of any particular counter-argument, so I'd rank this as 50% likely, though it's not the theory I want to happen.
• The afterimages are a manifestation of the powers Szeth is developing from bonding with Nightblood. We've already seen examples in the story of proto-Radiants using their powers unintentionally (I.E. Kaladin Lashing arrows to the bridge he's carrying). I can see this working the same way; that the afterimages are a part of the powers Szeth is developing, and this is a way to foreshadow them. Like the first bullet, I can't think of any particular counter-argument, but I'm also biased because I want this theory to be the case, because an assassin capable of making real or fake clones of himself could be very fun to read. I rank this at 40% likely.
• The afterimages are a result of Szeth being unsure of himself. As cool as this idea is, I don't think it's the cause, simply because a ton of people have this problem in the real world. Sure, maybe not a lot have it as bad as Szeth, but I'm sure Lift would have noticed this sort of thing at least once before during her travels. I'd put this explanation at 10% likely, as a result.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Amanuensis

[Stark]

I agree with your reasoning completely, just not the weight you give the various options.  I rank point one at higher than 50%, like say 51%.

 

Unfortunately, seeing as we have so little information about this, as the afterimages were more of a curiosity to Lift than a matter of import, we have no basis to develop any counter arguments.  As far as I can tell, we have not seen any phenomenon like this outside the use of Malatium.  And even then, Malatium showed far further back than a fraction of a second delay.

 

I'm very curious to see how it will turn out.  Thanks for outlining the options, as they stand, in such a clear and concise way.

[Yata]

@Amanuensis I will avoid the argument of the "being brought back to life" or Gawyx will have one of them too.

I remain of the idea of an effect of Nightblood not a power but a mere, visual apparence of Nightblood itself see as you may see a spren. We don't see any Bond powers working without Stormlight and I really doubt that Szeth is always carring Stormlight for the whole novella (he also spoke without any sign of leaking).

Another option but I can't really argue with pro or contros. It's about the "voices in his head", He talked about a lot in WoR, maybe he is actually haunted by something.

[Amanuensis]

6 minutes ago, Yata said:

@Amanuensis I will avoid the argument of the "being brought back to life" or Gawyx will have one of them too.

I remain of the idea of an effect of Nightblood not a power but a mere, visual apparence of Nightblood itself see as you may see a spren. We don't see any Bond powers working without Stormlight and I really doubt that Szeth is always carring Stormlight for the whole novella (he also spoke without any sign of leaking).

Another option but I can't really argue with pro or contros. It's about the "voices in his head", He talked about a lot in WoR, maybe he is actually haunted by something.

Ah, right. Hm. I suppose Lift immediately healing him and Szeth being revived much later by a fabrial could be a factor. But that is a good point I hadn't thought of.

Ah, true. That being said, the afterimage is just sort of there. It's not really doing anything magical yet. It could be an extension of Szeth that, when he's invested, he's capable of controlling. Either way, I think it's connected to Nightblood. It doesn't really make sense for it to be Nightblood itself, though, because why would he take the shape of the man wielding him?

That's actually an interesting thought. I wonder... could it be an Unmade we don't know about? It kinda fits their MO.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Amanuensis

[ccstat]

It stuck out to me that the afterimage when he was standing still persisted longer then the one from when he was walking. So, it's not a simple time delay. If it is a synchronization problem (which I doubt), then there is some funny inertia stuff happening (i.e. the connection between his physical and out-of-sync-cognitive bits is made with a spring or bungee cord). 

My interpretation is that his presence is somehow imprinting on the cognitive realm; the longer he is in one place, the deeper the impression and the longer it will take to spring back to its original, unoccupied "shape". I'm not sure yet what this says about the cause.

[Argent]

I don't know, team, let's think about this for a moment. Why would anyone sufficiently invested be able to see those? We've seen people who have been all sorts of invested, and we haven't seen afterimages like this anywhere else - so it's not that Lift is special in any way (though her circumstances might make it easier for her to see those afterimages than other people with the same level of investiture), it's that there is something weird about Szeth's condition. Moreover, Szeth is special in a way that allows invested people to see his afterimages. So I think the better way to tackle this is from the other side - what does a high amount of investiture does to a person to allow them to see things differently?

There is a few scenarios where we've seen investiture influence people's sight somehow. By magic system those are:

• Allomancy: Steelsight & Ironsight, tin-enhanced eyesight, atium shadows (and other related shadows)
• Feruchemy: tin-tapped eyesight
• BioChroma / Awakening: superchromacy (to use Brent Weeks' term)
• Aviar bonding: seeing possible future deaths

I think there are also some important facts to consider when trying to figure out the cause of Szeth's afterimages:

• Elend peers into the Spiritual Realm when heavily invested with Preservation's power (remember that even though he was burning Ruin's power, metals in Allomancy act as gates for Preservation's investiture)
• Steelsight and Ironsight cannot must be tapping into the Spiritual Realm somehow (because it sounds like they reveal potential Connections an Allomancer might form with metal objects - magical, short-lived Connections). Wax's supercharged Steelsight* from The Bands of Mourning makes sense in this context too - his vast investiture could've allowed him to peer deeper into the Spiritual Realm, allowing him to see more Connections (and not be limited to just metals, which are easiest to create with Steelpushes).
• Temporal shadows created by the Allomantic effects of atium, electrum, and gold (among others) must also work by allowing the Allomancer to interact with the Spiritual Realm - it is where futuresight (which is just the ability to see and interpret Connections) comes from, after all.
• Tin-enhanced senses in both Allomancy and Feruchemy are probably not important here. I'd wager that neither is the visual "perfect pitch."
• The visions Dusk sees because of his Aviar sound very very similar to atium- and/or goldshadows, so I don't think they warrant a separate investigation.

With all this in mind, I've convinced myself that what Lift sees is something of Szeth's Spiritual aspect. Furthermore, my thoughts on how Steelsight and Ironsight work lead me to believe that this something has something to do with Lift's (and other invested people) and Szeth's ability to form Connections. When an Allomancer sees another's image, it shows them either what they will do (and more specifically where they will be) or what they could've done; in other words, the shadows created by the (external?) temporal metals allow the Allomancer to peer into another's Spiritweb and then

• either interpret their current Connections one tiny step ahead
• or interpret their current Connections backwards (which should be much easier), and  then forward

So what is Lift seeing? I think she is seeing Szeth's Spiritweb as it was a short time in the past. 

I will speculate about why that may be another time though, I mused too long and hard here...

* See how cleverly I avoided spoilers for TBOM?

[Flywinged]

6 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Well, hm. Let's work through the potential causes for the afterimages real quick:

• The afterimages are a byproduct of Szeth dying and being brought back to life. This is a distinct possibility, and might very well be the answer. We've yet to see any other character go through this scenario, and I can't think of any particular counter-argument, so I'd rank this as 50% likely, though it's not the theory I want to happen.
• The afterimages are a manifestation of the powers Szeth is developing from bonding with Nightblood. We've already seen examples in the story of proto-Radiants using their powers unintentionally (I.E. Kaladin Lashing arrows to the bridge he's carrying). I can see this working the same way; that the afterimages are a part of the powers Szeth is developing, and this is a way to foreshadow them. Like the first bullet, I can't think of any particular counter-argument, but I'm also biased because I want this theory to be the case, because an assassin capable of making real or fake clones of himself could be very fun to read. I rank this at 40% likely.
• The afterimages are a result of Szeth being unsure of himself. As cool as this idea is, I don't think it's the cause, simply because a ton of people have this problem in the real world. Sure, maybe not a lot have it as bad as Szeth, but I'm sure Lift would have noticed this sort of thing at least once before during her travels. I'd put this explanation at 10% likely, as a result.

I like this! Sticking with the position I stated before, I just don't see this being a direct result of Szeth dying and being brought back. As @Yata said, I think we'd have seen some sort of similarities between Gawx and Szeth. Potentially being revived with the fabrial could have this effect? I had not considered the second point you brought up and I hadn't seen this discussed before. I would appreciate some expansion on that theory from anyone with ideas. What what a power like that be useful for? Very interesting theory @Amanuensis. I like it a lot. 

In regards to the last point, (which admittedly, I'm fully behind), I think you're addressing Szeth being unsure of himself in a very real world sense. Where the cognitive realm doesn't exist. This unsure-ness I want to attribute as a confusion between his very cognitive being and his physical body. I feel like this is a problem which much much fewer people on Roshar have. I think it is likely that Nightblood and his death/resurrection are contributing to that feeling in some way, but I can't see that as being 50% likely.

You couldn't think of a counterargument, and this isn't a solid one by any means, but aren't the heralds reborn over and over? Shouldn't Lift have seen this affect in Nale if that's the case. (That brings up my point about different forms of resurrection. Fabrial, Surge, whatever the heralds do). 

Quote

Q: Could only Lift see Szeth's afterimages?

A: Anyone sufficiently Invested can see them. Connection to the Cognitive Realm helps, too  

Also @Argent, this WoB @PallonianFire just brought us I think mostly rules out the possibility of Lift seeing something in the Spiritual realm. Obviously, since we don't really know much about the Spiritual realm, I could be dead wrong. But this seems to indicate that whatever the afterimages are, they are attributed to the cognitive realm.

edit: typos

Edited November 30, 2016 by Flywinged

[Pagerunner]

@Argent, a duralumin-atium burn isn't just supercharging Investiture. The specific function of that metal is to interact with the Spiritual Realm (I think you agree with me on this, if I'm following on your bulletpoints correctly). That's why going crazy with it lets you see into the Spiritual Realm, because you just look into it even more. For a more generic Investiture supercharge, I'd agree with your use of Wax's Steelsight, but I'd compare it to... well, it's because he was using... whatever, I can't talk around it well enough. BoM and SH Spoilers:

Spoiler

Wax's discovery of souls and metals being the same thing while he was using the Bands is very reminiscent of Kelsier's discovery after he died, so I'd say Wax was looking more into the Cognitive Realm.

It's also a very interesting view of Connection. It would be a very vulgar Connection compared to my understanding so far (using a slightly archaic definition of 'vulgar,' more like commonplace or simple, because I think that sense captures the comparison well), so it rubs me a little bit of the wrong way. I've always interpreted Connection as being very historical, what has happened (or will happen) between two things. But, we've got a lot to learn, so I'll admit my understanding may be flawed, but I don't think Steel and Iron utilize the Spiritual Realm.

A lot of Investiture, in general, can punch holes through Realms (like perpendicularities). I think we've seen it both ways, punching into Spiritual and Cognitive, so both are possible. Since Lift isn't heavily Invested, I'd lean more towards what we know is special about her, which is her undue presence in the Cognitive Realm.

[Argent]

25 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

@Argent, a duralumin-atium burn isn't just supercharging Investiture. The specific function of that metal is to interact with the Spiritual Realm (I think you agree with me on this, if I'm following on your bulletpoints correctly). That's why going crazy with it lets you see into the Spiritual Realm, because you just look into it even more.

Sure, but I don't think this changes much about my theory. 

26 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

I've always interpreted Connection as being very historical, what has happened (or will happen) between two things. But, we've got a lot to learn, so I'll admit my understanding may be flawed, but I don't think Steel and Iron utilize the Spiritual Realm.

This is funny because I've always disliked thinking about Connection like this. For me it's always been about current and future Connections, how you are currently connected to the world and where those connection will go. 

[Walker]

12 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

This is a part of the reason why I think Szeth will end up being the one who ends up defeating Odium, or at least, play a pivotal role in his defeat. Despite me rooting for Kaladin pulling through (mostly because I love Syl and don't want her to die), I do think it'd be a better story if Kaladin proved the Stormfather right by succumbing to his Hatred, thus becoming Odium's Champion, rather than Honor's.

Seth is the closest embodiment of Odium's Champion that we have ever seen.  His hatred in WoR was so complete that he hated himself.  Remember that Shards are an embodiment of an ideal.  Odium cannot hate other people but have joy in causing them harm.

[Amanuensis]

And that's exactly why I don't think that Szeth will end up Odium's Champion. It's way too obvious. I'd rather see him hit rock bottom and bounce back better than ever. Compared to Kaladin, I think he's got a lot more potential for growth. And honestly, Kaladin does have a tendency to keep regressing. I would not be surprised if he went through another bout of depression that resulted in him failing even worse than he has before, and choosing to blame others (maybe Lighteyes, maybe another scapegoat) for the cause. Then again, that's a bit too close to some events in Star Wars.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

We'll just have to read and find out, I suppose

[ZenBossanova]

Just an additional data point, Hoid sees that same afterimage when Jasnah Elsecalls at the end of WoR. 

[Pagerunner]

2 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

Just an additional data point, Hoid sees that same afterimage when Jasnah Elsecalls at the end of WoR. 

It's not quite the same:

Quote

The air in front of him blurred, as if heated in a ring near the ground. A streak of light spun around the ring, forming a wall five or six feet high. It faded immediately - really, it was just an afterimage, as if something glowing had spun in the circle very quickly.

In the center of it appeared Jasnah Kholin, standing tall.

It's not a sustained phenomenon, like Lift sees, just a literal bright flash of light as Jasnah Elsecalls.

[Pagerunner]

I don't like to double-post, and I don't like to reference WoBs from a signing without having a transcription, but I'm going to do both since I hear that Brandon spoke about this topic at the Seattle signing. Szeth's soul was returned to his body, but it isn't sticking very well, and that's why there are afterimages. He is not a Returned, who actually become Cognitive Shadows and are then attached to their bodies.

[Stark]

Nice @Pagerunner  Do you know when the transcript from the Seattle signing will be up?  I have a friend who was there, and I hear there were a couple of really good WoBs dropped, but I'd love to read them.

 

So, can we take that as confirmation that Nightblood is not causing the afterimages?

[Pagerunner]

13 minutes ago, Stark said:

Nice @Pagerunner  Do you know when the transcript from the Seattle signing will be up?  I have a friend who was there, and I hear there were a couple of really good WoBs dropped, but I'd love to read them.

 

So, can we take that as confirmation that Nightblood is not causing the afterimages?

Someone who went apparently recorded it, but they say they need to edit out some stuff that Brandon doesn't want online. The reading, I assume. I've just been watching the thread over in Events and Signings.

[Argent]

Poop. There goes my theory. Kind of.

[Yata]

Maybe the difference between Szeth and other "resurrected people" is that Szeth wanted to stay death, if his will-cognitive-soul has some power over his final journey. Probably his resurrection met some obstacle with for the unwilling subject.

[VoltCruelerz]

8 minutes ago, Yata said:

Maybe the difference between Szeth and other "resurrected people" is that Szeth wanted to stay death, if his will-cognitive-soul has some power over his final journey. Probably his resurrection met some obstacle with for the unwilling subject.

Wouldn't this affected some of the Returned then if it's just caused by not wanting to come back? I'd think Lightsong would have commented on that at some point. 

[Yata]

13 minutes ago, VoltCruelerz said:

Wouldn't this affected some of the Returned then if it's just caused by not wanting to come back? I'd think Lightsong would have commented on that at some point. 

Ehm Returneds are all another thing....I for resurrected people talked about people like Gawyx or other people "healed" in the time between their biological death and the Beyond.

Szeth is fully alive, his string to the physical realm wasn't cutted yet. This is the reason at the beginning I discharged the idea of his Afterimage as a side effect of his healing when other people like Gawyx doesn't show any of those (from the same observer)

I really wanted to go further in this topic, but I think I have to spoiler some of Secret History or Warbreaker to make a proper confrontation

[Argent]

18 minutes ago, VoltCruelerz said:

Wouldn't this affected some of the Returned then if it's just caused by not wanting to come back? I'd think Lightsong would have commented on that at some point. 

Only people who want to return become Returned. Endowment offers them a choice.

[Zea mays]

9 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

I don't like to double-post, and I don't like to reference WoBs from a signing without having a transcription, but I'm going to do both since I hear that Brandon spoke about this topic at the Seattle signing. Szeth's soul was returned to his body, but it isn't sticking very well, and that's why there are afterimages. He is not a Returned, who actually become Cognitive Shadows and are then attached to their bodies.

Soooo... After images are caused by the way he died and was brought back. Means I Was wrong, but it's good to know for sure. 

New theory: How was Szethy's "death" different than any other character's? (Wait for it) He got a post-publication re-write!

No wonder his soul isn't sitting properly in his body.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Zea mays