[Edgedancer Spoilers] Afterimages

[Kanrei]

7 minutes ago, Brgst13 said:

How about this: the afterimage is not Cognitive, but Spiritual.  Szeth's spiritual component is actually a few seconds older than his Physical component due to the time he spent "dead".  The afterimage is a result of the Spiritual realm trying to re-sync Szeth with the Physical realm.

Spiritual aspect has information about actual age and body will just try catch up with that Spiritual information about age.
For example that happened with Lord Ruler when his metalminds were removed.

[Droughtbringer]

On 11/24/2016 at 8:06 AM, shadowwisp said:

All the Spren that Lift describe seeing are no different from any of the other characters' description of them. Wyndle might be an exception but we don't have another cultivation spren to compare. And that could also be due their unique bond. 

We may not have a different spren to compare to...But we do have the same spren to compare to! 

"Did you know we were considering bonding this nice cobbler man instead of you? A very kindly man who took care of children."
Hmm...Cobbler, helping children...sound familiar?
Ym!!!
"Specks of light, like those from a piece of crystal suspended in a sunbeam...When it stopped light crept upward from it, like small plants growing or climbing from their burrows."

That is, in fact, Wyndle! Only seen through some one else's eyes.


(I Remember reading somewhere that if the person a spren bonds to dies, the spren goes into shock, but can still bond some one else)
 

[Landis963 he/him]

52 minutes ago, Sasooner said:

We may not have a different spren to compare to...But we do have the same spren to compare to! 

"Did you know we were considering bonding this nice cobbler man instead of you? A very kindly man who took care of children."
Hmm...Cobbler, helping children...sound familiar?
Ym!!!
"Specks of light, like those from a piece of crystal suspended in a sunbeam...When it stopped light crept upward from it, like small plants growing or climbing from their burrows."

That is, in fact, Wyndle! Only seen through some one else's eyes.


(I Remember reading somewhere that if the person a spren bonds to dies, the spren goes into shock, but can still bond some one else)
 

Sadly not; that spren speaks in a female voice, which is much different from Wyndle's voice.  However, that is clearly the same sort of spren as Wyndle.  Stump's, on the other hand, looks like "light reflected on a wall."  

[Droughtbringer]

19 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

Sadly not; that spren speaks in a female voice, which is much different from Wyndle's voice.

Brandon said that the pairing human-spren is based by Human's preference

Hadn't noticed that, but as above I'm wondering if the bond to lift changed Wyndle on a fundamental level, we see Syl change and grow at her own command, and also we see Wyndle saying "I could have lived quietly, helping him, making shoes. I could have done an entire display of shoes!" Is very, very first person, implying that it was still Wyndle.

 

(this discussion talks more about the spren thing  http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/55050-spren-pairings/#comment-458213)

Edited November 26, 2016 by Sasooner
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[Landis963 he/him]

25 minutes ago, Sasooner said:

Brandon said that the pairing human-spren is based by Human's preference

Hadn't noticed that, but as above I'm wondering if the bond to lift changed Wyndle on a fundamental level, we see Syl change and grow at her own command, and also we see Wyndle saying "I could have lived quietly, helping him, making shoes. I could have done an entire display of shoes!" Is very, very first person, implying that it was still Wyndle.

 

(this discussion talks more about the spren thing  http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/55050-spren-pairings/#comment-458213)

 

I thought the WoB was exactly the opposite; that we shouldn't read too much into why spren are the gender they are.  Also, Wyndle is complaining about what might have been (as Wyndle does), as opposed to any sort of reminiscing or nostalgia.  "I could have done" instead of "I did."  

[DSC01 he/him]

Yeah, Wyndle being Ym's spren has to be just about the most unlikely thing in all of the Cosmere (I may be exaggerating slightly, there). I still think Stump and Ym are/were nascent Edgedancers, even if their initial affinity to the Progression Surge makes that suspect, but I definitely don't think that Wyndle tried to be another Radiant's spren, failed, then got sent to bond with Lift.

[ZenBossanova]

It seems unlikely, but perhaps the afterimage is the spren associated with SkyBreakers. 

[Matrim he/him]

Not sure why people are disregarding nightblood as a cause for this. We're on an entirely different world with a different magic system. Who is to say what effect nightblood has on any of it? Until there is overwhelming evidence against it being nightblood, I'm sticking with him as the cause. 

[DSC01 he/him]

I agree that Nightblood is probably the cause. I also think that it is very possible that Lift is the only one who can see his afterimages, but any explanation that isn't, "I dunno, man--Nightblood is crazy!" is probably missing the mark. I won't be shocked if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that I'm right.

[desi_sparta]

Wouldn't Nightblood being the cause run counter to Brandon's philosophy of having standalone series? I mean, we have seen people from different planets in different anthologies, but have never seen anyone whose actions have significantly changed the digressed of events. Instead of looking for off world intervention to explain the phenomenon, shouldn't we first examine the on world event, i.e. the death and subsequent restoration of Szeth as the possible agent of change?

In that regard, I like the mouse pointer of a slow computer theory. When someone in the Sandersonverse dies, their physical anchor is lost to them (Secret Histories). You can restore the body to its original form if you have enough expertise on the subject of physical realm, but the connection of the spiritual/ cosmetic component may be an alright different slontze to master. No matter how hard you try, it just isn't restored the way the Almighty intended it to be.

Another analogy can be an anchor on a ship. Originally, the anchor is on the ship, and the motion of both is perfectly synched. But if you drop the anchor and let it float in the sea, it will still follow the path of the ship, but with a slight lag. 

Come to think of it, maybe Sanderson is a doom fan, and has implemented the rule that if you are respawned in the Cosmere, you will have to face lag.

The only people we know of who have come back from the dead are the Nalthis Gods and Kelsier. In case of the Gods, one of the shards is directly involved in the process and he/she may have enough expertise of all three realms that they may be able to restore the connection perfectly. As for Kelsier, he didn't return to his own body, AND he used hemalurgy, a magic system that is still mostly unexplored.

[Flywinged he/him]

On 11/23/2016 at 1:06 PM, Pagerunner said:

I suspect that only Lift sees it, because she sees somewhat into the Cognitive Realm. As to what caused the phenomenon in the first place, his death does seem likely, as if  his Cognitive and Physical selves weren't put back together quite right, so his Cognitive self is a little out-of-sync.

This is genius. Might I add my take on this, although I'm a little late to the party here?

I think its right to speculate that only Lift can see this affect (or people with similar afflictions to her). I'm not entirely convinced his death is what is causing this specifically. I am under the impression Szeth is incredibly unsure of who he is right now. Here are a few things he says to Lift,

"The man to whom you speak can no longer distinguish what is the voice of a mad raving and what is not"

"But... who am I to say? I am mad. Then again, I think that the Herald is too. It makes me agree that the minds of men cannot be trusted. That we need something greater to follow, to guide. But not my stone... What good is seeking a greater law, when that law can be the whims of a man either stupid or ruthless?"

Warning My Own Speculation Here

Szeth for the first time is really unsure of who he is. Previously there was turmoil, but he never questioned his own actions. He always found a way to place the blame onto his captors. I think he has taken responsibility for his previous actions. If not responsibility, at least has acknowledged the inherent wrongness as the second quote I gave demonstrates. I think he has reached the point where his physical body no longer feels like home to his cognitive self. I feel this is more likely the cause of this "lag" as opposed to just some manifestation of Nightblood or the fact he was resurrected. In other words, I am under the impression Nightblood and his resurrection are not direct causes of this effect. I attribute it to the more human cause of some extreme internal turmoil between Szeth's physical, spiritual, and cognitive parts.

Feel free to poke holes at this, and thank you @Pagerunner for pointing this out!

[Yata he/him]

I think that Afterimages was caused by Lift who partially see Nightblood while Nightblood bonds with her (and almost everyone near in the space) for his telepathy.

Lift was unable to see the Skybreaker's spren and The Stump's Spren...therefore she can't automatically see spren not visible to others...but Nightblood performe a lesser bond with the beings in the sorround to comunicate and this may be enough for Lift to "see" something of Nightblood's being

[thejopen27 he/him]

I think Nightblood is giving Szeth a color aura like the returned of Nalthis and it's faint, but Lift either through her cognitive sensitivity or being a Radiant can see it.

[Paladin Brewer he/him]

If no one has done so yet, I would like to coin the afterimages as "Cognitive Dissonance™" because it's humorous.

[Djarskublar he/him]

1 hour ago, Paladin Brewer said:

If no one has done so yet, I would like to coin the afterimages as "Cognitive Dissonance™" because it's humorous.

Upvote. I'm rolling around over here. Best joke I've seen in weeks.

[Bromo_Sapien]

On 11/24/2016 at 0:28 AM, Steelheart said:

Not really sure, but it looks a lot like a reverse Atium shadow.... 

I think Steelheart made a rather salient point here that's been ignored.

 

Everyone keeps remarking on the idea of Nightblood being involved because of the Nalthis connection but the after images weren't in color, as you would expect if Nalthis was relevant. Everything related to Nalthis is colorful, right down to its very Investiture, and all of a sudden it produces something without any color? That doesn't seem right to me.

The after images, to me, were more similar to atium and malatium than anything we saw on Nalthis. If malatium's effect occurs by [Secret History spoiler]

Spoiler

witnessing a person's Connection and past, presumably atium works by seeing a person's Connection and future.

 

I theorize that Lift is witnessing some level of Connection to Szeth's past somehow. How she's doing that, I don't know. If Allomancer's used part of a god to See that, maybe it has something to do with Lift's connection to the Nightwatcher (I subscribe to the Nightwatcher = Cultivation theory). Maybe Szeth's Connection to his past is stronger than anyone else's (makes sense, with his backstory) and that makes it easier for someone with a Connection to a god to see.

 

I don't know; I don't necessarily buy the last two sentences of speculation I just wrote, but Lift witnessing Szeth's Connection to his (extremely recent) past seems more in line with the effects of mal/atium than anything with Nalthis to me.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Bromo_Sapien
Realized after the fact that my mention of the Secret History should be in a spoiler tag

[VoltCruelerz he/him]

On 11/27/2016 at 4:35 AM, Flywinged said:

...

I attribute it to the more human cause of some extreme internal turmoil between Szeth's physical, spiritual, and cognitive parts.

Feel free to poke holes at this, and thank you @Pagerunner for pointing this out!

So... he's about to Snap?

1 hour ago, Bromo_Sapien said:

Everyone keeps remarking on the idea of Nightblood being involved because of the Nalthis connection but the after images weren't in color, as you would expect if Nalthis was relevant. Everything related to Nalthis is colorful, right down to its very Investiture, and all of a sudden it produces something without any color? That doesn't seem right to me.

...

I don't know; I don't necessarily buy the last two sentences of speculation I just wrote, but Lift witnessing Szeth's Connection to his (extremely recent) past seems more in line with the effects of mal/atium than anything with Nalthis to me.

I'm not sure why Endowment would have any particular affinity for the past, unless you counted the resurrection of the Returned, but Nalthis isn't the only place you can return from the grave. 

Also, with your comments about color, remember that Nightblood sucks the life out of things.  For all we know, he could be pumping Investiture from the physical realm into the cognitive realm, hence the glowy bits that only Lift can see.  I'm not saying a malatium-shadow-style effect isn't going on, but I don't see any evidence of that.  Possible, yes, but I see no justification for that over any other theory.

That said, the idea that Nightblood pumps investiture across realms...  Given how heavily invested he is, he might actually qualify as a small perpendicularity, so this might actually be possible...

Edited November 29, 2016 by VoltCruelerz

[Bromo_Sapien]

Cultivation, not Endowment, but I'm not sure it really matters. I don't think it takes an affinity for the past to see these shadows. After all, atium saw the future while malatium saw the past. 

 

I get that Nightblood sucks the life out of things but there are no signs that he sucks the color out of anything. All of the people he kills in Warbreaker don't turn white. We also haven't seen or heard of him moving Investiture; that would be an unbelievable power to have. We haven't seen Investiture switch realms on that level outside of Sel, and that was caused by the splintering of two shards (or at least that's the latest theory, correct me if I'm wrong). As far as him being a perpendicularity, I would find that very very hard to believe. Perpendicularities seem to necessitate a connection to a Shard (only planets with a Shard or had a Shard on them have a perpendicularity, plus the anomaly of First of the Sun) more than just a large amount of Investiture.

 

It just seems to me that the description of the after images seem to match closer to the mal/atium shadows than to anything we've seen with Nalthis or anywhere else... 

[PallonianFire he/him]

On 11/27/2016 at 0:31 AM, Matrim said:

Not sure why people are disregarding nightblood as a cause for this. We're on an entirely different world with a different magic system. Who is to say what effect nightblood has on any of it? Until there is overwhelming evidence against it being nightblood, I'm sticking with him as the cause. 

Nalan had Nightblood in WoR and didn't show any evidence of afterimages.

[VoltCruelerz he/him]

4 hours ago, PallonianFire said:

Nalan had Nightblood in WoR and didn't show any evidence of afterimages.

Lift also wasn't there at the time to see it, just a guy who'd been recently brought back from the dead.

Edited November 29, 2016 by VoltCruelerz

[Torrieltar]

6 hours ago, VoltCruelerz said:

Lift also wasn't there at the time to see it, just a guy who'd been recently brought back from the dead.

If Szeth has bonded or is in the process of bonding Nightblood, it could just be because Nale only held Nightblood, but hadn't bonded it.

[Flywinged he/him]

11 hours ago, PallonianFire said:

Nalan had Nightblood in WoR and didn't show any evidence of afterimages.

 

9 minutes ago, Evenstrom said:

If Szeth has bonded or is in the process of bonding Nightblood, it could just be because Nale only held Nightblood, but hadn't bonded it.

These are both good points. But based on @PallonianFire pointed out, we can at least rule out causality due to Nightblood without any sort of bond being developed. So if these afterimages are caused by Nightblood, it would be because of a side effect of the bond and not merely holding the sword.

I would like to point out Lift has seen another proto-radiant in the form of Stump and no afterimages were seen then. Would it be appropriate to further narrow the cause of the afterimages, if they are due to Nightblood, to whatever differences there are between Nightblood's bond and the typical Nahel Bond?

 

 

[PallonianFire he/him]

Just got a WoB on this. Doesn't really give us an answer, but it does tell us something:

 

Quote

Q: Could only Lift see Szeth's afterimages?

A: Anyone sufficiently Invested can see them. Connection to the Cognitive Realm helps, too  

 

[Bromo_Sapien]

Does this imply that Lift is more heavily invested than others? What about Nale; does he see the after-images and just not comment on them? I would imagine Heralds are more heavily invested than normal KRs and have some Connection to the CR via the Desolations. 

[Yata he/him]

10 minutes ago, Bromo_Sapien said:

Does this imply that Lift is more heavily invested than others? What about Nale; does he see the after-images and just not comment on them? I would imagine Heralds are more heavily invested than normal KRs and have some Connection to the CR via the Desolations. 

Lift is as far as we know the physical being more close to the cognitive realm we have saw (thanks to the Old Magic). An Herald may be more invested but this alone doesn't mean they are more closer to the Cognitive Realm than a regular human (also if some recent WoB gives us some good information about Heralds' nature)