Would Vin be considered a anti hero if she took the power

[Cloud Farren]

I'm always thinking if Vin took the power from the well of ascension would she be considered someone bad? Another question that popped too my mind was even if Vin knew about Ruin and how letting go of the power was the same as freeing him, would she use the power and become the next Lord Ruler?

[cometaryorbit]

Well, if she took the power to save Elend (which is by far the most plausible reason she would) I don't think that would make her try to take over the world. Vin would probably try to fix things while she held the power, and likely do damage trying, but I don't think she would have any interest in personally ruling the world.

On the other hand, she'd learn about Ruin, and Ruin would probably tell her about Hemalurgy like she did TLR. The question would be whether she'd succumb to the temptation to use it (likely for Atium/Gold Compounding immortality). Even with those, I don't think she would rule directly as Empress/Lord Ruler... Vin just doesn't seem interested in that kind of power, and unlike Rashek, I think she recognizes her unsuitability to govern.

[Cloud Farren]

50 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Well, if she took the power to save Elend (which is by far the most plausible reason she would) I don't think that would make her try to take over the world. Vin would probably try to fix things while she held the power, and likely do damage trying, but I don't think she would have any interest in personally ruling the world.

On the other hand, she'd learn about Ruin, and Ruin would probably tell her about Hemalurgy like she did TLR. The question would be whether she'd succumb to the temptation to use it (likely for Atium/Gold Compounding immortality). Even with those, I don't think she would rule directly as Empress/Lord Ruler... Vin just doesn't seem interested in that kind of power, and unlike Rashek, I think she recognizes her unsuitability to govern.

 

thx for the answer

 

[Quiver he/him]

Honestly, this is an AU I am very interested in, and if I ever had the time, inclination, or players, would probably form the basis for a MAG game.

[cometaryorbit]

I was writing a fanfiction on this topic, but it's stalled now because of NaNoWriMo. So I've thought about this a lot...

[Spoolofwhool]

I doubt Vin would've become a new Lord Ruler. The main reason is that we know there have been other Heroes of Ages, and like Vin, they probably had a hero-complex towards the duty. They all wanted to do the right thing for everyone, protect the world. While Alethi and Vin were corrupted by Ruin's changing of the prophecy, they still had similar mentality. I believe that that mentality would've prevented them from doing something like taking control of the world. On the other hand, Rashek, who did become TLR, had fairly different mentality. I would say that his mental state was fairly geared towards feelings of oppression, and respect towards the other nation. Don't forget, Rashek hated Alethi because he believed that the Hero of Ages should've been a Terris, but at the same time, he respected Alethi's nation, looked up to it, and was probably jealous of their technological advancements with regards to the Terris. All that accumulated with the knowledge he gained, and he realized a method of being on top. 

At the same time though, there was probably a factor which both Vin and Rashek had in common. Rashek was aware that the prophecy was being corrupted to a certain degree, from his uncle. Drawing on the Well's power and the knowledge probably confirmed what Ruin had been doing, and he realized that if he just left things, the next HoA would definitely just release the power and free Ruin. That likely added to his motivation to become TLR. Vin too, had she held onto the power instead of releasing as she had, would've had that same knowledge, and realized what was happening and that leaving things as they were would've resulted in the next HoA releasing Ruin, and possibly why Rashek made the decision he did. As such, there is a possibility there that Vin would step herself up as the next LR. My question though is whether she would be able to use Preservation's power to turn herself into a feruchemist to make that possible, though I imagine it would be.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Personality, I wonder what she would have done 

Spoiler

about the other person in the well. She probably would have noticed him while ascending.

 

[Spoolofwhool]

54 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Personality, I wonder what she would have done 

  Hide contents

about the other person in the well. She probably would have noticed him while ascending.

 

Who? Only Elend and other people were there.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

I take it you haven't read SH then. Warning for SH spoilers.

Spoiler

Kelsier was in the well at that point. He, not Leras, was the one who stabbed Elend. My question was what Vin's reaction would have been to his presence there and what she would have done about it.

 

[Spoolofwhool]

6 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I take it you haven't read SH then. Warning for SH spoilers.

  Reveal hidden contents

Kelsier was in the well at that point. He, not Leras, was the one who stabbed Elend. My question was what Vin's reaction would have been to his presence there and what she would have done about it.

 

Ah, yes. You're right I haven't read SH, but I'm aware of that. True, I didn't consider that. I thought you were referring to physical people. It's my default thought when I hear person. I have no doubt she would've been surprised by his appearance, and no doubt the overall truth of the fight between Shards. I wonder whether he would've tried to convince her to become another LR. I wouldn't be surprised honestly if he did, and it does weight me a bit more towards her becoming another LR if she had ascended at that point.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Spoiler

I think she's smart enough not to listen to him. Not to mention being really annoyed about the whole stabbing Elend thing. And I doubt Kell would have wanted her to become the next LR anyway; he's more likely to try to get her to bring him back... And he had changed some by that point.

Spending a year with little to do but reflect does change you. And Kelsier was willing to be imprisoned for the next 1000 years to prevent Ruin's release. It was astonishingly selfless, all things considered. So I don't think that is a likely result.

His presence there does alter things though.

 

[Spoolofwhool]

28 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

  Hide contents

I think she's smart enough not to listen to him. Not to mention being really annoyed about the whole stabbing Elend thing. And I doubt Kell would have wanted her to become the next LR anyway; he's more likely to try to get her to bring him back... And he had changed some by that point.

Spending a year with little to do but reflect does change you. And Kelsier was willing to be imprisoned for the next 1000 years to prevent Ruin's release. It was astonishingly selfless, all things considered. So I don't think that is a likely result.

His presence there does alter things though.

 

True. Sounds like more SH things. In any case, he might not want her to be a LR, and I agree with that, but I think he would've been in favor of her doing what Rashek had done, ensuring that she was around for the next well so in order to prevent someone from ignorantly following the prophecy. I do think that that wouldn't require the establishment of a system like TLR did. Overall, I'm still solid on the idea that she wouldn't become the next LR.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

On that part yes. He would want her to stick around. And if she didn't want to, well, he would be happy to volunteer. He hadn't changed THAT much. 

[cometaryorbit]

21 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

 

At the same time though, there was probably a factor which both Vin and Rashek had in common. Rashek was aware that the prophecy was being corrupted to a certain degree, from his uncle. Drawing on the Well's power and the knowledge probably confirmed what Ruin had been doing, and he realized that if he just left things, the next HoA would definitely just release the power and free Ruin. That likely added to his motivation to become TLR. Vin too, had she held onto the power instead of releasing as she had, would've had that same knowledge, and realized what was happening and that leaving things as they were would've resulted in the next HoA releasing Ruin, and possibly why Rashek made the decision he did.

Yeah, but there are plenty of options other than taking over the world. Ruin can't change stuff written in metal, so making a ton of metal plates with the true story and distributing them widely should work. Or you could become immortal, but not actually take over, just hang around to be there when the Well fills again.

Quote

As such, there is a possibility there that Vin would step herself up as the next LR. My question though is whether she would be able to use Ruin's power to turn herself into a feruchemist to make that possible, though I imagine it would be.

Use the power of Ruin trapped in the Well directly, no - using the Well, one only touches the power of Preservation, not of Ruin. But Ruin whispered the secrets of Hemalurgy to TLR when he used the Well, so if he did the same for Vin, she could use Hemalurgy to get feruchemical Atium and possibly Gold.

Whether she'd be willing to kill one or more Feruchemists for immortality is quite another question.

[Spoolofwhool]

38 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah, but there are plenty of options other than taking over the world. Ruin can't change stuff written in metal, so making a ton of metal plates with the true story and distributing them widely should work. Or you could become immortal, but not actually take over, just hang around to be there when the Well fills again.

This is true. Of course, just distributing plates wouldn't really work either without something credible to back it up. Becoming immortal and just keeping the whole Well of Ascension/Hero of Ages thing a secret and taking the power every 1000 years would be the best method. As I said, I don't think Vin becoming another LR is a very likely occurrence at all.

40 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Use the power of Ruin trapped in the Well directly, no - using the Well, one only touches the power of Preservation, not of Ruin. But Ruin whispered the secrets of Hemalurgy to TLR when he used the Well, so if he did the same for Vin, she could use Hemalurgy to get feruchemical Atium and possibly Gold.

Whether she'd be willing to kill one or more Feruchemists for immortality is quite another question.

Good catch. I meant to say Preservation, not Ruin. I'll go fix that.

[Weltall]

I don't think you could keep going back to the Well each time it refills. Brandon has mentioned that feruchemy works on the basis of multipliers and at some point, Rashek would have been too old in 'real' terms for the atium compounding trick to keep him alive any longer. So unless the Well could literally reverse age that wouldn't work forever. Not to mention that the idea of 'hanging around but not taking power' runs into a small problem: You need lots of atium and it's a lot easier to get ahold of that stuff when you're the one who controls its source, though we know that with a generous but finite supply of the stuff you can keep going for at least a few centuries so that's probably not a completely insurmountable obstacle.

Anyhow, sounds like a great idea for a campaign or a 'what if' style fanfiction.

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, Weltall said:

I don't think you could keep going back to the Well each time it refills. Brandon has mentioned that feruchemy works on the basis of multipliers and at some point, Rashek would have been too old in 'real' terms for the atium compounding trick to keep him alive any longer. So unless the Well could literally reverse age that wouldn't work forever. Not to mention that the idea of 'hanging around but not taking power' runs into a small problem: You need lots of atium and it's a lot easier to get ahold of that stuff when you're the one who controls its source, though we know that with a generous but finite supply of the stuff you can keep going for at least a few centuries so that's probably not a completely insurmountable obstacle.

Anyhow, sounds like a great idea for a campaign or a 'what if' style fanfiction.

Rashek probably could've used the well the second time to reverse his age or just make himself immortal. Considering he has used its power to make an immortal specie (mistwraiths), I don't think making himself immortal would be impossible. As such, I think his plan to keep using the well and protecting the world from Ruin would've worked, providing he would've actually have had the chance to make himself immortal. 

[goody153]

While i do think Vin is a bit radical to her methods. Like you guys said i don't think she'd become another Lord Ruler. There's a possibility she's take charge or maybe just support Elend in taking charge.

[cometaryorbit]

On 11/6/2016 at 1:12 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

This is true. Of course, just distributing plates wouldn't really work either without something credible to back it up.

Yeah, maybe I wasn't being clear enough. I was assuming Vin did something really dramatic and undeniable with the power, not just healing Elend.

 

On 11/7/2016 at 9:40 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

Rashek probably could've used the well the second time to reverse his age or just make himself immortal. Considering he has used its power to make an immortal specie (mistwraiths), I don't think making himself immortal would be impossible. As such, I think his plan to keep using the well and protecting the world from Ruin would've worked, providing he would've actually have had the chance to make himself immortal. 

Yeah, I think Brandon's said that TLR's increasing atium demand came from his Spiritual age continuing to increase. The Well touches all three Realms, so it could probably rewrite his Spiritual age given all the crazy things that it can do (moving planets, engineering new species...)

[The Technovore he/him]

Personally I don't think Vin would turn TLR 2.0, but whether or not her actions would be seen as "good" or not is what she actually did with her power. If she took the same route Rashek did, and made herself immortal, and then did her best to squash anyone from figuring out how to end her, then she would definitely not go down history as a good guy.

Whether she would actually make anything better is a point of debate, because if we remember Rashek didn't really know what he was doing when he "defeated" the deepness, and ended up wrecking the planet. I assume that she would learn from his mistakes, and attempt to rectify them, but whether she would succeed is a bit unknown.

The trickiest bit wouldn't really be what she did to the planet (assuming she doesn't accidentally wipe out all life on Scadrial), but her long-term effect on society. If she let herself die a mortal death, then there's a strong possibility that some yahoo would let Ruin go come next millennium. And we all know what happens when you try to keep yourself alive and on top of the world for 1000 years, people get mad.

In the end I don't think it really could have gone any differently than it did, and if it did go any differently, we'd probably see either see a repeat of The Final Empire, starring Vin as TLR, or a repeat of The Hero of Ages, except without a team of heroes to stop the apocalypse at the last second.

[cometaryorbit]

7 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Personally I don't think Vin would turn TLR 2.0, but whether or not her actions would be seen as "good" or not is what she actually did with her power. If she took the same route Rashek did, and made herself immortal, and then did her best to squash anyone from figuring out how to end her, then she would definitely not go down history as a good guy.

Yeah - I just don't see Vin going that route. She can be deadly and ruthless, but controlling others isn't her style. She'd likely use the Well to make Elend ruler of the world (as she more or less did when she discovered koloss control) but not claim that title / authority herself.

I don't think she'd take Hemalurgic immortality (spike of Atium Feruchemy for compounding) because Elend would never accept Hemalurgy and I don't think Vin would want to be immortal unless he was too.  Now, if she could use the Well to directly grant herself and Elend Feruchemy (and make Elend Mistborn too if he didn't use lerasium), that would be different. But would they be able to get enough Atium for immortality, short of discovering the Trustwarren? The Pits won't recover for 300 years or so...

Anyway, I really can't see a Feruchemist/Mistborn Vin being so driven by fear that she crushes the world to prevent anyone finding out her secret. Elend has muted her paranoia a lot, and getting the absurd power boost of omni-Compounding would IMO go in that direction too. What would be left for her to fear?

TLR fought sloppily. Vin wouldn't. If someone attacks, she Compounds Steel (and Gold to survive the air resistance, and burns Duralumin-Pewter to not break her arm) and kills them with a Mach 2 stab attack, before they can do anything.

And note that TLR didn't die instantly on metalmind removal. If by some bizarre fluke someone actually managed to remove Super-Vin's Atiumminds, she'd just grab them back with Steel Allomancy... presumably the person she's fighting wouldn't have a Shard-powered Pull/Push as Vin did vs. TLR.

7 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Whether she would actually make anything better is a point of debate, because if we remember Rashek didn't really know what he was doing when he "defeated" the deepness, and ended up wrecking the planet. I assume that she would learn from his mistakes, and attempt to rectify them, but whether she would succeed is a bit unknown.

I think she'd leave a world messed up, but not as badly as Rashek's. In addition to seeing his mistakes, I think her intuitive ability with Allomancy should help her use Preservation's power, IMO.

7 hours ago, The Technovore said:

The trickiest bit wouldn't really be what she did to the planet (assuming she doesn't accidentally wipe out all life on Scadrial), but her long-term effect on society. If she let herself die a mortal death, then there's a strong possibility that some yahoo would let Ruin go come next millennium. And we all know what happens when you try to keep yourself alive and on top of the world for 1000 years, people get mad.

I don't know. Vin would have Elend and Sazed on her side -- give that pair a couple of decades and they'd be able to come up with a system to last 1000 years and ensure that doesn't happen.

I think just making a million copies of the critical information carved into metal and put into every public place and every other reasonable spot would do it. Nobody who's not Spiked or completely insane would want Ruin free, so I don't think it needs to be secret information.

They didn't know about Hemalurgy by the end of WOA, but Elend and Sazed IMO would have figured it out eventually, even if Ruin doesn't give Vin the knowledge like he did to TLR. With ubiquitous universally-known warnings about spikes, Ruin would be pretty nullified.

The interesting question is what happens to Marsh.  Assuming they know about Hemalurgy, the Koloss aren't going to survive. Elend certainly won't make new ones or allow them to be made, and their lifespan is only 20 years. They'll be extinct well within his expected reign. I don't think Vin would mind killing all the other Inquisitors... but Marsh? He's Kelsier's brother, and was a part of the crew. But with the knowledge of Hemalurgic immortality (if he can get enough Atium), and Ruin controllability, he's the greatest remaining threat to the world.

[Weltall]

While looking for WoBs on allomancy unrelated to this topic I stumbled upon something Brandon said on the topic of Vin and the power of the Well. He said that if she had tried to take the power and become a 'good' version of the Lord Ruler, she probably wouldn't have ended up any better than he did, because she was already 'tainted' by Ruin. But note that this was specifically if she tried to exploit the same loopholes Rashek did to become immortal and rule the world until the next refilling of the Well, not in the context of what might have happened if she took up the power but lived out a normal lifespan afterwards.

Incidentally, he also said that Vin would have needed hemalurgy to pull off the immortality trick, so apparently she couldn't use the Well's power to give herself feruchemy the same way Rashek gave himself allomancy. I guess because feruchemy is from both Preservation and Ruin.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727#43

Anyhow, thought this was an interesting tidbit to share.