Shardblades and Metals

[Entreos]

Can shardblades cut through silver? Aluminum? Atium? Lerasium? A hemalurgic spike? A metalmind?

[Spoolofwhool]

On 10/5/2016 at 10:05 PM, Entreos said:

Mistborn Spoiler

Spoiler

Can shardblades cut through silver? Aluminum? Atium? Lerasium? A hemalurgic spike? A metalmind?

Yes to the above, though the last two wouldn't be completely effortless, though fairly so since their charge would be pretty negligible. With shardblades, the only limiting factor is how invested the object they are cutting is. In other words, more or less, the resistance of an object to a shardblade is proportional to how invested it is.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Entreos]

54 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Yes to the above, though the last two wouldn't be completely effortless, though fairly so since their charge would be pretty negligible. With shardblades, the only limiting factor is how invested the object they are cutting is. In other words, more or less, the resistance of an object to a shardblade is proportional to how invested it is.

Shardblades only physically cut apart something living on their second pass through though, right? So would the same thing happen to a hemalurgic spike? It's invested, and steals part of someone's soul.

[Spoolofwhool]

22 hours ago, Entreos said:

Shardblades only physically cut apart something living on their second pass through though, right? So would the same thing happen to a hemalurgic spike? It's invested, and steals part of someone's soul.

Spoiler

Hemalurgic spikes aren't alive.

They're just invested, with someone's innate investiture. Interestingly enough, I've actually found the whole "counting through non-living things on the first time" trait of sprenblades kind of odd since all objects have a spiritual aspect, so I wonder why sprenblades only cut through the spiritual of living things. [Mistborn in spoiler]

Edited October 7, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[The One Who Connects he/him]

8 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Interestingly enough, I've actually found the whole "counting through non-living things on the first time" trait of sprenblades kind of odd since all objects have a spiritual aspect, so I wonder why sprenblades only cut through the spiritual of living things.

Incoming Speculation: The Innate Investiture of living things protects the physical aspect, much the same way it prevents pulling on a spike.

Investiture is basically stored in the Spiritual realm right? Once the spiritual is cut, perhaps the Innate Investiture goes to fill that gap. That Innate Investiture could be considered "the spark of humanity" in a way. Mistborn Spoilers

Spoiler

Preservation put more of his power into the people he and Ruin created, to allow them sentience.

Losing that Innate Investiture would probably be a fatal thing, so at that point they would be inanimate objects from a Realmatic perspective.

Disclaimer: This turned into one of my 2 minute theories, so assumptions were made

[Yata he/him]

8 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Interestingly enough, I've actually found the whole "counting through non-living things on the first time" trait of sprenblades kind of odd since all objects have a spiritual aspect, so I wonder why sprenblades only cut through the spiritual of living things.

I actually always see it like: A Shardblade always cuts the Soul. In the case of living being, they are so invested that a Shardblade can cut only the Soul while for lesser entity (as inanimate object) the Soul oppose so little resistence that also the physical is cutted.

But I have to try to find a way to prove or counterprove it 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Yata

[Pagerunner he/him]

Are we sure on aluminum? I thought the theory was that the Shardblade practice guards were made of it.

[Rasarr she/her]

11 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Are we sure on aluminum? I thought the theory was that the Shardblade practice guards were made of it.

There was a discussion on it and I believe someone has pointed out that with aluminium being available on Roshar through soulcasting, someone would've realized sooner or later that it can stop Shardblades. 

10 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I've actually found the whole "counting through non-living things on the first time" trait of sprenblades kind of odd since all objects have a spiritual aspect, so I wonder why sprenblades only cut through the spiritual of living things.

Don't the Shardblades cut through the Cognitive, though? I believe only Nightblood was said to be capable of cutting through all the three Realms. 

[Spoolofwhool]

9 minutes ago, Rasarr said:

Don't the Shardblades cut through the Cognitive, though? I believe only Nightblood was said to be capable of cutting through all the three Realms. 

No, they cut through the soul/spiritual and physical. Only Nightblood, as we've seen so far, can cut through cognitive as well. 

[Rasarr she/her]

2 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

No, they cut through the soul/spiritual and physical. Only Nightblood, as we've seen so far, can cut through cognitive as well. 

Can you point me to the source, please? I admit I was basing my statement off the fact that cutting a rock in half would give you two "rock-souls" in Cognitive, while cutting a human in half would not give you two human souls.

[Spoolofwhool]

55 minutes ago, Rasarr said:

Can you point me to the source, please? I admit I was basing my statement off the fact that cutting a rock in half would give you two "rock-souls" in Cognitive, while cutting a human in half would not give you two human souls.

You don't get two souls when a person is cut spiritually. Only the main spiritual piece remains connected to the physical while the other spiritual pieces is destroyed, as examplified by the body going grey. 

Quote

QUESTION

A shardblade, what it does is cut off healing and control of an arm or whatever...

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

QUESTION

So like if an arm got badly wounded and was bleeding out and needed to be amputated. If you went through it with a shardblade first, would that damage you in other ways?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No it wouldn't. What it does is sever the soul of the arm.

QUESTION

I know like in Mistborn, if you take bits of soul out of people it messes them up.

BRANDON SANDERSON

It does.

QUESTION

if you do it with shardblades...

BRANDON SANDERSON

It leaves a wound...

[Source]

[marianmi]

So this means Szeth now can kill spren?

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, marianmi said:

So this means Szeth now can kill spren?

Yes, Warbreaker spoiler.

Spoiler

Providing he has some method of taking on investiture in order to fuel Nightblood. Otherwise, Nightblood would just consume his innate investiture and kill him the moment he draws it.

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[marianmi]

4 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Yes, Warbreaker spoiler.

  Hide contents

Providing he has some method of taking on investiture in order to fuel Nightblood. Otherwise, Nightblood would just consume his innate investiture and kill him the moment he draws it.

 

Spoiler

So if he gets another honorblade, he becomes a dual-wielder unstoppable KR killer. Wasn't Jak-son-son-Vallano a dual wielder?  was this why?  OMG was the plan all along for him to dual-wield Nighblood and a Honorblade? (or a shardblade, if a spren will bond him eventually?)

 

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, marianmi said:

  Hide contents

So if he gets another honorblade, he becomes a dual-wielder unstoppable KR killer. Wasn't Jak-son-son-Vallano a dual wielder?  was this why?  OMG was the plan all along for him to dual-wield Nighblood and a Honorblade? (or a shardblade, if a spren will bond him eventually?)

 

Spoiler

I have a sneaking suspicion that no spren would go along with Nightblood. Probably because Nightblood is sociopathic and would try to feed on the spren. 

 

[Entreos]

21 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Yes to the above, though the last two wouldn't be completely effortless, though fairly so since their charge would be pretty negligible. With shardblades, the only limiting factor is how invested the object they are cutting is. In other words, more or less, the resistance of an object to a shardblade is proportional to how invested it is.

Aren't atium and lerasium pure investiture though, or similar? 

[Spoolofwhool]

On 10/6/2016 at 8:06 PM, Entreos said:

Aren't atium and lerasium pure investiture though, or similar? 

They're made from investiture, like everything else, but they don't contain investiture, which is what would make them resistant. While they are more than likely made from more investiture than most other metals, it isn't that significant a factor. 

Edited October 8, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Voidus]

@Entreos
Moved topic to the cosmere theories subforum.

[18th Shard he/him]

On 10/6/2016 at 9:23 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

They're made from investiture, like everything else, but they don't contain investiture, which is what would make them resistant. While they are more than likely made from more investiture than most other metals, it isn't that significant a factor. 

Actually, they are pure Investiture of the shards. They would also resist, though in a lesser, and quite possibly unnoticeable, fashion (Atium is not noted as being any harder to Push).

[Spoolofwhool]

14 minutes ago, 18th Shard said:

Actually, they are pure Investiture of the shards. They would also resist, though in a lesser, and quite possibly unnoticeable, fashion (Atium is not noted as being any harder to Push).

At the stage they are in though, they are physical metal. I don't think they would be resistant any more than other metals since they aren't invested. You can argue that every metal of Scadrial in pure investiture of the shards, since they were all made, along with Scadrial, directly from the power of R&P. Do you have anything which indicates that they are considered more invested than other metals?

Edited October 8, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[18th Shard he/him]

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (17 October 2008)

 

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. ...Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

@Spoolofwhool

 

Edit: Coppermind: " Atium is notable as it is the condensed power of the Shard Ruin. It was sequestered away at the Pits of Hathsin by Preservation when the latter gave up his mind to trap Ruin. "

Edited October 8, 2016 by 18th Shard
@ tag, additional info

[Spoolofwhool]

15 minutes ago, 18th Shard said:

@Spoolofwhool

 

Edit: Coppermind: " Atium is notable as it is the condensed power of the Shard Ruin. It was sequestered away at the Pits of Hathsin by Preservation when the latter gave up his mind to trap Ruin. "

Yes. This supports my argument that they are investiture in physical form. However, it doesn't say that some of that investiture carries over to make them more invested than other metals, therefore making them more resistant to other investiture. That sort of statement is what I was looking for, since I haven't seen anything that says that they are inherently more invested. 

[18th Shard he/him]

Ah. I was under the impression that they were more invested seeing as they are simply condensed Investiture (in addition, there is a WOB about atium supplying the power for atium allomancy, not Preservation), but as noted above, I don't know anywhere where it shows them to be significantly more invested, and because of this to exhibit resistance to Pushing. On that, we are in agreement @Spoolofwhool

Edited October 8, 2016 by 18th Shard

[Argel he/him]

I think they have to be more invested, or e.g. Atium would not make a dent in Ruin's power, which was the real reason it was created (to take power from Ruin and hide it from him).

[Jondesu he/him]

On 10/6/2016 at 7:44 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

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I have a sneaking suspicion that no spren would go along with Nightblood. Probably because Nightblood is sociopathic and would try to feed on the spren. 

 

Pretty sure that's why it would be an Honorblade rather than a Nahel Bond that would provide the access to Stormlight, in @marianmi's theory.  I wonder if Nightblood could use the Investiture in/from an Honorblade, though?  Perhaps we should ask Brandon.