theory The Mystery Chart, Transportation, & The Oathgates (Spoilers for Jasnah's unpublished scecne)

[1stBondsmith]

Another thought on the glyphs, and something to watch for in all the glyphs...

I have gone back and looked at a large collection of the published glyphs, and I think this is very solid;

All glyphs relating to the Physical plane have a mirrored symmetry, left to right. This is true for old and new glyph types. Styles change and the shape of modern glyphs appear to be more important than they used to be (probably to make them more "Male friendly" to read), but they must all have the bilateral symmetry. This is also a way to identify which Realm the glyph is referring to.

All glyphs with bilateral and inverted symmetry (left to right, then flip the right side top to bottom) refer to the Cognitaive Realm. Additionally, the glyphs with Point symmetry, (plane across the middle and bend the the glyph to the "infinite point") appear to be how beings in the cognitive world have made their glyphs. They also appear to have a different thickness to the glyphs.

All glyphs (and there are only a few demonstrated so far) with Dual-axis bilateral symmetry (also called 2nd order symmetry- mirrored left to right and top to bottom both) appear to be related to the Spiritual realm. I would love to get more info on tangent theories to support or disprove, as I don't have enough time to complete the study of the glyphs, but this appears to be the construct.

 

[Argent]

Can you provide some examples, @1stBondsmith? I know we would like to have this be the case, but I don't know if we have enough evidence to support an idea like that.

[1stBondsmith]

I have paper copies of all the books for the glyphs I studied. I would have to research electronic ones to show the relationship from location in the book and context in the story to the glyph used. That would take a very long time to document electronically. Looking up the context of the glyph, with the assumptions from this Thread's original author about the Cognitive Surgebinding chart, and the locations and uses of the glyphs will show this. I would be interested in exceptions, but I checked over 28 glyphs and glyph types in maps, drawing, and other locations, and this seems to be accurate. We only have three examples of what I am now calling Spiritual glyphs, 

I'm sorry, but finding all this electronically, or giving each reference would take too long for me. Try the paper way. It is much quicker for this kind of reference. (at least for me).

 

Edited September 29, 2016 by 1stBondsmith
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[Argent]

Can you at least provide some examples of which glyphs you believe to be the Spiritual ones, as they are the most poorly supported ones? Maybe some of the Cognitive ones as well? The ones on the endsheet we can obviously see in this thread, I would just like to see more examples - and I can find them myself if you point me in the right direction.

[1stBondsmith]

I'll get to my books again tonight, and give you page references. You will need to glance through the sections for context. I am working on a computer today till late.

Expect an update in the morning.

[BlackYeti]

25 minutes ago, Argent said:

Can you at least provide some examples of which glyphs you believe to be the Spiritual ones, as they are the most poorly supported ones? Maybe some of the Cognitive ones as well? The ones on the endsheet we can obviously see in this thread, I would just like to see more examples - and I can find them myself if you point me in the right direction.

I've had a quick look through the images in the books and I've found a single example of a glyph which displays the Spiritual symmetry:

(Sorry about the resolution, this was the best I could find.) It's taken from the Map of the Warcamps in The Way of Kings, the first page before chapter 18. The only possible connection (pun not intended) to the Spiritual Realm that I can see is in the epigraph on the next page which compares Ati to Rayse. However this feels somewhat weak and forced to me, at least without further examples (hint, hint, @1stBondsmith).

Also @Argent, I'm really glad to hear that you like this, not least because it was in part your own analysis of the chart here, that really got me thinking about this. Now you've really got me wondering what this evidence you can't talk about is, so please let us know once you are free to do so.

[1stBondsmith]

Sorry, I have to delay my post. I got swamped by my kids last night. I will have updates Monday morning on the location of the glyphs and their symmetry. The rest of life intrudes...

[Argent]

22 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

Also @Argent, I'm really glad to hear that you like this, not least because it was in part your own analysis of the chart here, that really got me thinking about this. Now you've really got me wondering what this evidence you can't talk about is, so please let us know once you are free to do so.

Glad to hear my 3 AM out-of-date ramblings were useful. I was particularly proud of my noticing of the symmetry on the endsheet. 

But to take us back on topic, I tried to get a hint of confirmation from Brandon regarding this theory. I figured confirming the whole thing was going to get smashed to bits with the RAFO hammer, but maybe if I could get one of the elements of the theory confirmed... Well, I asked whether there exists a third chart, similar to the front- and endsheet ones. No mentions of Realmatics, no mentions of Surges working differently, nothing of that sort.

Got RAFO'd anyway.

[1stBondsmith]

OK. This weekends' work is done, and I got an hour to go over the glyphs in the two SA books. There are three main things I discoverd. 

1st, I want to discuss the Symbol shown below

On 9/29/2016 at 11:39 AM, BlackYeti said:

(Sorry about the resolution,

This symbol is first found on the Compass rose for the Map of Roshar in black and white prior to the Prologue. It appears to form 6 arrows, but is lines from it are not limited to six or the four cardinal directions like most roses. I just searched the past forums on the compass rose and could not find a discussion that covered what I am about to. This symbol has a left to right reflective symmetry, and left to right and top to bottom symmetry and a Horizon point symmetry. HOWEVER, on a careful review, its shape is also a three plane reflexive symmetry (a repeated symbol 6 times). So really, I cannot tell what type of symbol I would classify this as. Then, I began to notice the repetition.

In addition to this map where it looks like the Compass rose, it is also found on P.274 drawing of the warcamps. It is on the left in the middle of 10 other symbols. It is not used as a compass rose and has no lines showing navigation or direction. Then it appears again in a very surprising place. On the drawing of Karbranth on P.454 it appears to be the glyph on the sail of a ship AND... wait for it.. IN WHITE INK AT THE TOP OF THE PALLENIUM. Neither one could be used as a map rose. I had originally thought this a drawing by Shallan, but the style is different and she does not use glyphs except to copy the ones on swords. Finally, we see the symbol repeatedly on the Theylen map of the Frostlands on P.138 in WoR. It is surrounded by a ring of glyphs repeated 8 times in a band. This ring appears elsewhere, including the borders of two other maps. (on an aside, the 6 to 8 repeated symmetry also happens to appear in the drawings of Pattern, with six and eight repeated patterns). The first use looks like the compass rose, but there are a total of 5 of these, with connecting lines to them. So I assumed them to be navigation points, but they are not connected to cities or ports. Then I noticed that there are other navigation points where these lines intersect without this symbol. So I had to throw out that idea. This leaves me with only speculation. Are these a notation of important historical spots? Are they Perpendiculars? Are they something else?...likely. Just don't know.

Secondly, I could not find any other examples of the Cognitive glyphs other than the end cover sheet. Unless you include the chapter heading drawing of Shadesmar (which is think is indicative, but not a hidden glyph), pattern's symbol, However, on reviewing the drawing of the Shattered Plains on P.950 of WoR, I noticed, that unlike the maps of the Dawncities, which have various symmetries, the Shattered Plains have a 2 plane reflective OR a 1 plane reflective and second plane flipped symmetry like the cognitive symbols. My reason for seeing it the second way is the diagonal and crossing axial notes added by Nazh on the trip out to the center. Very interesting, but doesn't help us understand how the plains were made, shattered, or which symmetry is the most correct.

Third I no longer think there are filler glyphs on any map or drawing.Each of these, repeated or stylized appears to have meaning and even precedence on other maps. See the Rear endsheet map on WoR and make particular notice of the slightly different design in the four inner corners of the map. (At first I though these were a repetition error, but they are specific to the corners. Also note that this appears to be a ceiling map). 

 

[Argent]

Huh, it does appear on top of the Pallaneum, doesn't it? I hadn't noticed that one before.

Regarding the compass rose, I know for a fact we have discussed it before. I am reasonably sure @Harakeke has brought it up when discussing glyphs with radial symmetry. And I also think we've had a separate thread, specifically for the rose. I am getting potentially useful results with this search, maybe browse through?

[1stBondsmith]

Yeah, I read those. What is not discussed (or rather, no evidence brought up) is what the symbol means. They tried to call it a locator for Urithiru, the Oathgates and other things, but its occurrence does not lend itself to that (I liked the Oathgate idea myself, but I don't think it is so). Other translations gave no better idea. So given the strange locations, and multi locations in the Thaylen Map, what is it denoting?

[Rasarr]

Hm. I'm going out on a limb there (get your tinfoil hats out!), but could this mean something like "connection" (not in Cosmere sense, though), or "joining together". I believe the glyph translation thread managed to ascertain that the compass rose could be stylized "Urithiru", which is a place connecting/joining together all the Oathgates. Over time, this could morph into stylized "Urithiru" glyph coming to mean something connecting; for example, on the Thaylen coast map, trading routes and campsites; on the war camps map, the ten princedoms joining together; on Kharbranth image, both the ship connecting the city to the outside world and the Pallaneum "joining together" the knowledge, et cetera, et cetera.

As for the Cognitive glyphs (the ones from the blue-and-purple chart, do I recall correctly?), you can also find them in the corners of the Kharbranth picture. Not sure what this denotes, though. They're the "Dustbringer" ones.

I have this pet theory of mine that every Silver Kingdom has its Dawncity and its Herald, so if I'm right on that, then perhaps Kharbranth was the capital of ancient Thalath, which in turn was "Chana's Kingdom". Then the glyph could symbolize the fact that there's the "Dustbringer Oathgate" in the city, and maybe the compass rose about Pallaneum means that the Oathgate is there.

[The One Who Connects]

10 minutes ago, Rasarr said:

I have this pet theory of mine that every Silver Kingdom has its Dawncity and its Herald, so if I'm right on that, then perhaps Kharbranth was the capital of ancient Thalath, which in turn was "Chana's Kingdom". Then the glyph could symbolize the fact that there's the "Dustbringer Oathgate" in the city, and maybe the compass rose about Pallaneum means that the Oathgate is there.

I like this. It adds on a lot of meaning to the discussion thread I made about the similar symbols a while back. It didn't really get anywhere, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed the symbols

[1stBondsmith]

56 minutes ago, Rasarr said:

I have this pet theory of mine that every Silver Kingdom has its Dawncity and its Herald, so if I'm right on that, then perhaps Kharbranth was the capital of ancient Thalath, which in turn was "Chana's Kingdom". Then the glyph could symbolize the fact that there's the "Dustbringer Oathgate" in the city, and maybe the compass rose about Pallaneum means that the Oathgate is there.

I agree with this pet theory too. Too much circumstantial evidence not to be true about the kindgoms, cities and Heralds. I also like the Link to the dustbringers. Seems they would be great at making an underground inverted pyramid. 

The symbol meaning connection...hmmmright now it is as good a guess as any. Have an upvote for creativity. The generality of the locations makes me shy away from it being a just a travel connection location (Frostlands doesn't have much out there). Ship to the city seems real thin. I got nothing better. My first place theory is they are in fact connection points, but to the cognitive realm. I wonder if Jasnah last appeared at a spot with a Rose on the map? Could these be potential crossing points? That would mean they had to include oathgate cities and Urithiru, but would include a great deal more. This would also seem right with the fact that Shallan  made her first jump to Shadesmar from here, and connection places where others have seen spren also had this symbol (The King at the shattered plains sees the Symbol Heads. Jasnah sees them at Kholinar, others?)

Made me think, if the drawing of Karbranth was old enough to have connection to dustbringers and an oathgate, Jasnah may have been checking out whether it was locked or not, and not just researching. She told Shallan she knew all of them were locked, except one, so she knew what to look for.

Edited October 3, 2016 by 1stBondsmith
Added examples

[marianmi]

Can it be the mark of some world-hopper?

 

[Dahak]

On 24/09/2016 at 2:36 AM, AnanasSpren said:

IIRC, the only reason the Oathgates go via Urithiru at present is because Shallan states there are some kind of locks in place barring travel to the other Oathgates but I like it!

The description we have of use of the oathgates as a plural implies that they are 1-1 links to Urithiru since the merchant had to go via Urithiru to reach his destination rather than transfering from one capital to another directly. As does the fact there are 10 platforms at Urithiru rather than just 1.

[ParadoxicalZen]

1 hour ago, Dahak said:

The description we have of use of the oathgates as a plural implies that they are 1-1 links to Urithiru since the merchant had to go via Urithiru to reach his destination rather than transfering from one capital to another directly. As does the fact there are 10 platforms at Urithiru rather than just 1.

Ah but Urithiru is also political Switzerland for the 10 Silver country monarchies, as evidenced by the room with 10 thrones. Remember, Shallan described 10 alcoves when they were in the chamber, most likely one for each other country as well Urithiru so it is most probable you can travel to the other cities (it could be that the KR used the same locking mechanism as seen in-book to prevent said travel so anyone HAD to go via Urithiru)

[Silanda]

On 9/23/2016 at 7:13 PM, BlackYeti said:

(It’s worth noting though that the Cognitive glyph for the Truthwatchers is unique in that the symmetry does change: it not only gains a second axis of reflectional symmetry, but it also gains order 2 rotational symmetry. I have no idea why this is the case, but with this in mind we should probably keep an eye on Renarin going forward: something is going on here.)

This entire theory is brilliant and prompted me to register after lurking for basically ever (hi everyone!). With all this I think you also solved something that's bothered me for ages, namely-

Quote

INTERVIEW: Dec 12th, 2015

Barnes & Noble Orem

QUESTION

What does Glys look like?

I can’t tell you. What Glys looks like is important. 

Source

So Glys should show up with bizarro extra Truthwatcher symmetry, as opposed to looking like Pattern, who clearly has what you've identified as cognitive symmetry (shown here)? You guys are all crazy, I love this forum.

 

[1stBondsmith]

We are crazy (as my wife keeps reminding me). Welcome to the Sanderson Looney Bin @Silanda !

I hadn't considered the link to Glys's form. Wow! What would that be in a new dimension? I am really hoping that the next book delves into the Bondsmith link, and we get more of the spiritual realm, since it is the realm we see the least. I'll bet nickles we get a new Surgebinding map. Wouldn't that be awesome! Frankly I think @BlackYeti has one of the most significant finds in years with this theory.

Edited October 7, 2016 by 1stBondsmith
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[BlackYeti]

On 10/7/2016 at 4:26 AM, Silanda said:

This entire theory is brilliant and prompted me to register after lurking for basically ever (hi everyone!). With all this I think you also solved something that's bothered me for ages, namely-

Source

So Glys should show up with bizarro extra Truthwatcher symmetry, as opposed to looking like Pattern, who clearly has what you've identified as cognitive symmetry (shown here)? You guys are all crazy, I love this forum.

 

Hello and welcome. This is an excellent observation which I completely missed: I never thought to consider the symmetry of the spren themselves. This potentially provides the key to so much, thank you so much for sharing. Unfortunately I can only upvote your post once  but it deserves so many more than that! Now having spent a few days thinking about this, let me present my analysis of the spren's symmetry.

In the diagrams that we have of Pattern, he does indeed have rotational symmetry like the cognitive glyphs; unlike the glyphs however he is far more symmetrical. Whilst the glyphs only have order 2 rotational symmetry, in each drawing of Pattern he either has order 6 or order 8 rotational symmetry. Is it significant that these are all even numbers? And is there any meaning to this? I’m not sure, but let’s try comparing it to other Radiant spren.

Firstly let’s ignore the Truthwatchers and the Bondsmiths for the time being since they seem to be a special case with the connection to the Spiritual Realm. We are only looking for Physical or Cognitive symmetry at this point. Secondly let’s only consider how they appear when in the Physical Realm for now. From the eight remaining Orders, we have seen only three spren in addition to Pattern. Let’s start with Syl since we've seen her the most. Like Pattern she's frequently changing her shape, often appearing in forms such as a leaf, a ribbon, or a woman. All of these have reflectional symmetry in common with each other. Next Ivory is described as "a small figure made of inky blackness" when Shallan sees him. This indicates that Ivory is human shaped, and therefore has reflectional symmetry.

Now Wyndle on the other hand is a lot more complicated since it’s not clear whether Lift is seeing his Physical or Cognitive aspect (remember that she’s a lot more in the Cognitive Realm than most people). Wyndle seems to have reflectional symmetry since he manifests a face amongst his vines; however I really think at this point that this is his Cognitive aspect that we’re seeing, and thus not relevant. I suspect that Ym was also a proto-Edgedancer (the way he was asking for people’s stories seems to fall in line with what we know of the Edgedancers), and his spren, from what little we saw of it, seemed quite different to Wyndle. Also if we assume that this is the case then we can draw some far more interesting conclusions later on, in fact I can’t find much of anything interesting if we assume otherwise. There’s also another reason, but I’ll explain that in the next paragraph.

This gives us: Windrunners with Physical symmetry, Lightweavers with Cognitive symmetry, and Elsecallers with Physical symmetry. This is almost enough to predict the symmetry of each Order in the table if we assume that it’s symmetrical. The only thing that it rules out for certain is rotational symmetry, thus leaving reflectional symmetry. The question is which axis is it mirrored across? I’m assuming it’s the vertical axis for three reasons. Firstly it is in line with all reflectional symmetry that we’ve seen up until now. Secondly because when considering the lines between the Radiant glyphs, each line points towards an Order with different symmetry if we assume a vertical axis. Finally when we come to consider the Truthwatchers and the Bondsmiths they would break the symmetry if we have a horizontal axis. This means of course that Wyndle needs to have rotational symmetry whilst in the Physical Realm, hence my final reason for thinking that Lift is seeing his Cognitive aspect.

This gives us all eight orders: Windrunners, Stonewards, Dustbringers, and Elsecallers with Physical Symmetry, and Skybreakers, Willshapers, Edgedancers, and Lightweavers with Cognitive Symmetry. Now we can consider the Truthwatchers and the Bondsmiths. The Stormfather manifests as a giant head, which of course gives him reflectional symmetry, leaving the Truthwatchers with Spiritual symmetry. There is of course a problem with this: both of the orders connected to the Bondsmiths (the Stonewards and the Windrunners) have Physical symmetry like the Bondsmiths do. This violates our rule that the connections are between Orders with different symmetry. I don’t have an explanation for this. The best I could manage is that these two orders are special and thus different rules apply, but then why would that be the case? It could easily have been fixed if the Truthwatcher were above the Bondsmiths, but they’re not.

I’ve annotated a copy of the Physical Surgebinding chart in order to more clearly show just how these all match up.

What can we learn from this? What if the symmetry is in fact related to the Shard that the spren is closest related to? The Stormfather is Tanavast’s cognitive shadow, and Syl is an honourspren, so these two match up. Ivory’s alignment is unknown, so that doesn't help. But Pattern and Wyndle are closely related to Cultivation which again, matches with the symmetry.

This begs the question of what the Spiritual symmetry that I’m predicting that Glys will demonstrate indicates. Could it be that Glys is actually an Adonalsium spren? These two Orders are special then because Bondsmiths bond mega spren and Truthwatchers bond Adonalsium spren?

This would mean that Honour and Cultivation are each connected through the Radiant Orders to every Surge, with the exceptions of Pressure and Tension which are connected only to Honour, and Progression and Illumination which are connected to Cultivation and Adonalsium.

But if this is true, what then is going on with the symmetry in the Cognitive Realm. The Elsecaller spren seem to maintain their symmetry across Realms, appearing human shaped in both, yet the Cryptics also have a body in the Cognitive Realm, which implies reflectional symmetry (I’m betting that even the symbols that are their heads, also display this kind of symmetry here). And of course the Edgedancer spren also have different symmetry between Realms as described earlier.

I've no idea what's going on here. There are only two symmetrically correct possibilities here as far as I can see. Firstly, all Orders along the bottom of the chart could have Physical symmetry and all Orders along the top have Cognitive symmetry, thus preserving the vertical axis of reflectional symmetry. Alternatively all spren in the Cognitive Realm could have reflectional symmetry. But if the latter is true, then why is the Cognitive Realm associated with rotational symmetry? And if the former is true, why doesn't the symmetry mirror the symmetry in the Physical?

I honestly don't think we've seen enough of the Cognitive Realm to make sense of this yet, so I'm just going to leave this here. Annotating the Cognitive chart like I did the Physical chart above would be premature.

What do you all think? Am I crazy?

Edited October 10, 2016 by BlackYeti

[marianmi]

I think you make it more complicated than it should be

Also, I think truthwatchers and bondsmiths should be similar. my theory is that these 2 orders can bond different types of spren, this is why they're "separate" on the chart. This would explain also why Ym's spren and Renarin's spren might be different. I don't believe Wyndle's form is the cognitive one - Pattern has some similarities between cognitive and physical, and there's absolutely no similarities between "sparkling light spren" and a vine. There's NO WAY Wyndle - even if he's a vine in the cognitive - would become a "sparkling light spren" in the physical.

[Argent]

I believe this is taking it too far. Connecting glyphpairs and Realmatics was already a stretch, extending this to spren and symmetry... therein lies madness.

[Argel]

If left to just Brandon, then yes. But if he collaborated with the rest of his team, there could be something to it. I mean, if you're going to go crazy with stuff like that, the world with no axial tilt based on a Julia Set sounds like a good place to do it on. It's also the kind of details that fit in well in an epic fantasy series (i.e. die-hard fans that may eventually catch it several years into the series).

Edited October 11, 2016 by Argel

[1stBondsmith]

@BlackYeti , I think that there are symmetries about the glyphs, but I don't think that the spren have related symmetries. What I was excited about was seeing a spren with spiritual dimensions as well as cognitive. Still have no clue about the lines between Orders. But the languages they use (at least in writing) seem to have some repeatable patterns. I think that is about as far as I go now.

[Jofwu]

Interesting question... If there's a distinction between "Physical Surgebinding" and "Cognitive Surgebinding", is the same true of every other magic system? Does Allomancy also work differently in the Cognitive Realm, for example?