soyperson Posted September 18, 2016 Report Share Posted September 18, 2016 In Elantris (and the forthcoming sequel) Jaddeth, the Derethi God, is an recurring problem. In Mistborn (particularly Era 2) Trell, god of the Nelazan, is also a recurring problem. They are very similar in that they are both on worlds where there are already two shards, and kind of "mess up" the balance of the two by being a third "god force." Could Jaddeth and Trell be in any way related? Maybe they're both embodiments of Autonomy? I feel like Jaddeth will become more important very soon. Any ideas on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted September 18, 2016 Report Share Posted September 18, 2016 Jaddeth or at least his current incarnation as only god for Shu-Dereh, from his dogma and area of influence seems related more with Dominion than Autonomy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyperson Posted September 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2016 1 minute ago, Yata said: Jaddeth or at least his current incarnation as only god for Shu-Dereh, from his dogma and area of influence seems related more with Dominion than Autonomy. Isn't Dominion Splintered? Or did Odium kill Skai, too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted September 18, 2016 Report Share Posted September 18, 2016 1 minute ago, bleeder said: Isn't Dominion Splintered? Or did Odium kill Skai, too? Yes, Dominion was splintered and Skai is dead. Yata is saying Jaddeth's MO is more like Dominion's than Autonomy's, not that it is Dominion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyperson Posted September 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2016 Just now, Spoolofwhool said: Yes, Dominion was splintered and Skai is dead. Yata is saying Jaddeth's MO is more like Dominion's than Autonomy's, not that it is Dominion. Oh, OK. Yeah, it does seem so. This is ironic since Dominion is the reason of the geographical land-magic of Sel, and Jaddeth was originally just a minor god of rocks and land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted September 18, 2016 Report Share Posted September 18, 2016 7 minutes ago, bleeder said: This is ironic since Dominion is the reason of the geographical land-magic of Sel, and Jaddeth was originally just a minor god of rocks and land. THis isn't actual proved, it's possible that Dominion's Influence made the Sel's magic Locations dependant...But it's a speculation, we have no real proofs (I remember also a WoB who disproved this, but it's really cloudy in my mind...therefore I can't say nothing about) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyperson Posted September 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2016 Just now, Yata said: THis isn't actual proved, it's possible that Dominion's Influence made the Sel's magic Locations dependant...But it's a speculation, we have no real proofs (I remember also a WoB who disproved this, but it's really cloudy in my mind...therefore I can't say nothing about) Ah, OK. Thanks for clarifying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel he/him Posted September 18, 2016 Report Share Posted September 18, 2016 42 minutes ago, bleeder said: both on worlds where there are already two shards Nitpick: Scadrial had two shards. We have a WoB that if Sazed dropped his shard(s) he would drop one shard -- Harmony. Of course, there were two shard s in ancient times, but we're not sure the current Trell is the same as the ancient Trell or just someone that hijacked the ancient religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyperson Posted September 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2016 17 minutes ago, Argel said: Nitpick: Scadrial had two shards. We have a WoB that if Sazed dropped his shard(s) he would drop one shard -- Harmony. Of course, there were two shard s in ancient times, but we're not sure the current Trell is the same as the ancient Trell or just someone that hijacked the ancient religion. I realize that Sazed merged the two and became Harmony, but for all intents and purposes right now, regarding this theory I referred to Ruin and Preserves as separate. Good nitpick, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter he/him Posted September 18, 2016 Report Share Posted September 18, 2016 6 hours ago, Argel said: Nitpick: Scadrial had two shards. We have a WoB that if Sazed dropped his shard(s) he would drop one shard -- Harmony. Of course, there were two shard s in ancient times, but we're not sure the current Trell is the same as the ancient Trell or just someone that hijacked the ancient religion. Technically it isn't as clear cut as that. Yes if Sazed were to die, he would drop a single "Harmony" but he still has to contend with two diametrically opposed Intents which would indicate that Ruin and Preservation are still distinct from each other, to a certain extent at least. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel he/him Posted September 19, 2016 Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 3 hours ago, WeiryWriter said: but he still has to contend with two diametrically opposed Intents which would indicate that Ruin and Preservation are still distinct from each other, to a certain extent at least Are we sure of that? The new intent of "harmony" could be the problem, and it could have resulted from merging Ruin and Preservation. I do nto recall any WoBs that straight up confirm that both intents are still there, vs. just using that as an explanation for what is in-effect the intent of Harmony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted September 19, 2016 Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, Argel said: Are we sure of that? The new intent of "harmony" could be the problem, and it could have resulted from merging Ruin and Preservation. I do nto recall any WoBs that straight up confirm that both intents are still there, vs. just using that as an explanation for what is in-effect the intent of Harmony. Well we have yet "effects" of presence of Preservation and Ruin on the planet. There are two kind of Mist, black and white....Allomancer continue to born and the Hemalurgy still work (probably with a single shard we have no multiple magic systems). Harmony himself put quite a good emphasis about his Preservation side and his Ruin side. Ruin and Preservation when Sazed ascended began to intermingle linked in the same Vessel I think that if something didn't prevent it. Soon or later this process would be complete and Harmony will became a truly single Shard (with double amount of Investiture). Just to say, I think this is what happened on Sel...D&D's splinters had at least 4000 years (but probably also 5000) to start the intermingling...Now the Dor is a "new shard" but Splintered. Edited September 19, 2016 by Yata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirtuousTraveller he/him Posted September 19, 2016 Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 Jaddeth definitely has the feel of some kind of shard-being, at least a splinter of a shard, either held by a person or that became sentient on its own. I don't know if it's some kind of warped intent of Dominion (corrupted by the splintering), or if it's something/someone Odium invested/empowered before leaving Sel. It would be interesting if Jaddeth and the conquering spirit his followers embody is related to Trell and the power-thirsty spirit his followers in the Set embody. But, the intents of Dominion and Autonomy don't really seem connected, in fact they seem opposed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted September 19, 2016 Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 3 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said: Jaddeth definitely has the feel of some kind of shard-being, at least a splinter of a shard, either held by a person or that became sentient on its own. I don't know if it's some kind of warped intent of Dominion (corrupted by the splintering), or if it's something/someone Odium invested/empowered before leaving Sel. It would be interesting if Jaddeth and the conquering spirit his followers embody is related to Trell and the power-thirsty spirit his followers in the Set embody. But, the intents of Dominion and Autonomy don't really seem connected, in fact they seem opposed. It's possible that Jaddeth's influence is just the skaze. It's been confirmed that they influence what happens in Fjorden, and they are splinters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirtuousTraveller he/him Posted September 19, 2016 Report Share Posted September 19, 2016 2 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said: It's possible that Jaddeth's influence is just the skaze. It's been confirmed that they influence what happens in Fjorden, and they are splinters. Boy, that's a crazy line of influence! Fjorden is influenced by the Skaze who are essentially making up stories about an old legend of a powerful deity named Jaddeth, who isn't really there. That's one reasonable line of thinking and until we get more information, I think it's just as possible as Jaddeth being an actual being. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkness he/him Posted September 20, 2016 Report Share Posted September 20, 2016 I could imagine someone (or someone's cognitive shadow) merging with enough of Devotion and/or Dominion's splinters to start consolidating all that free investiture. Jaddeth may have begun as a relatively minor entity, but be slowly gaining power. I also cant imagine that picking up bits of devotion or dominion would preclude incorporating the other. Devotion + Dominion = ? Fanaticism? Sounds a little heavy on devotion... Unity? By any means necessary? Sounds kind of Jaddeth-like, but still feels wrong. it's a very odd mix now that I think about it. One could say it would almost foster a master-servant relationship. More thought required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted September 20, 2016 Report Share Posted September 20, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, Darkness said: I could imagine someone (or someone's cognitive shadow) merging with enough of Devotion and/or Dominion's splinters to start consolidating all that free investiture. Jaddeth may have begun as a relatively minor entity, but be slowly gaining power. I also cant imagine that picking up bits of devotion or dominion would preclude incorporating the other. Devotion + Dominion = ? Fanaticism? Sounds a little heavy on devotion... Unity? By any means necessary? Sounds kind of Jaddeth-like, but still feels wrong. it's a very odd mix now that I think about it. One could say it would almost foster a master-servant relationship. More thought required. I hypothesize that it would be Unity. The reason being is that the two main religions in Elantris, Shu-Korath Shu-Dereth, are both descendants of Shu-Keseg, which was about unity of all. The two sects disagreed about how to achieve that unity, with the former saying love is necessary while the latter favored absolute hierarchy. As such, I imagine the truth is that when both sects come together, unity will be reached, which has the giant underlying message that when Devotion (Love) and Dominion (Hierarchy) come together, Unity will be obtained. Edited September 20, 2016 by Spoolofwhool 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkness he/him Posted September 20, 2016 Report Share Posted September 20, 2016 poetic. I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted September 20, 2016 Report Share Posted September 20, 2016 7 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said: I hypothesize that it would be Unity. The reason being is that the two main religions in Elantris, Shu-Korath Shu-Dereth, are both descendants of Shu-Keseg, which was about unity of all. The two sects disagreed about how to achieve that unity, with the former saying love is necessary while the latter favored absolute hierarchy. As such, I imagine the truth is that when both sects come together, unity will be reached, which has the giant underlying message that when Devotion (Love) and Dominion (Hierarchy) come together, Unity will be reached. Yeah it was the base of my first theory here on the forum...I didn't upgrade it very frequently because I am waiting the Ars Arcanum and its answers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirtuousTraveller he/him Posted September 20, 2016 Report Share Posted September 20, 2016 11 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said: I hypothesize that it would be Unity. The reason being is that the two main religions in Elantris, Shu-Korath Shu-Dereth, are both descendants of Shu-Keseg, which was about unity of all. The two sects disagreed about how to achieve that unity, with the former saying love is necessary while the latter favored absolute hierarchy. As such, I imagine the truth is that when both sects come together, unity will be reached, which has the giant underlying message that when Devotion (Love) and Dominion (Hierarchy) come together, Unity will be obtained. You should check out my theory over here about how Unity already existed! =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirtuousTraveller he/him Posted September 20, 2016 Report Share Posted September 20, 2016 And because I believe what I believe about the Dor's origin, I don't think that Jaddeth is a combination of Devotion and Dominion. I feel pretty confident about this. Jaddeth definitely has the feel of something morally negative, which Unity doesn't really imply (yes I know about moral relativism, but on Sel, it just feels wrong to me otherwise). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects he/him Posted September 20, 2016 Report Share Posted September 20, 2016 @VirtuousTraveller On the Jaddeth Shard-Combo Angle: Here is a recent post I made in Yata's old Topic Quote Quote Jaddeth is the name of the Derethi God. He is said to slumber in the earth, waiting for a time when the whole world worships him to return and rule the world. Source Quote Skaze: The Skaze were "evil Seons" and were related to Skai. They had a large amount of influence in the politics of Fjordell and strongly influenced the Dakhor. Source Secondly, the connections that can be made: 1. Skaze -> Skai = Dominion 2. Skaze -> Shu-Dereth -> Jaddeth 3. Jaddeth -> Worship = Dominion? Jaddeth will return when the whole world worships him. This feels either (a) too easy to be right, or (b) blatant enough to get overlooked. I looked at your theory too by the way. I personally don't like the relationship idea, but 1) that's my opinion, and 2) we likely won't know until Dragonsteel. That doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong, for all we know it might work the way you said because they don't have as conflicting Intents as R&P did. I do think that they are in the Cognitive because of getting Splintered, but that's a discussion for another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farnsworth Posted September 20, 2016 Report Share Posted September 20, 2016 Does Jaddeth exist? I always thought he was just priest dogma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyperson Posted September 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2016 Just now, Figberts said: Does Jaddeth exist? I always thought he was just priest dogma. I assumed he did in some form, but I could be wrong. Guess we'll find out, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted September 20, 2016 Report Share Posted September 20, 2016 32 minutes ago, Figberts said: Does Jaddeth exist? I always thought he was just priest dogma. I'm under the impression that Jaddeth and Domi are just conceptual theological figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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