Bladex454 Posted September 17, 2016 Report Share Posted September 17, 2016 Recently in a thread involving the the Lopen a theory came to mind. It's stated that their number never went beyond three and that their spren was specific: "But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious."—Words of Radiance, chapter 16, page 14 What is more specific than bonding a cognitive shadow? We know that there were three Shards present on Roshar; Odium, Cultivation, and Honor. It's theorized that the Stormfather is Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow, which Dalinar had just recently bonded. If one man (admittedly with a strong connection to Honor) could bond with a shade, its possible that the other members were capable of doing just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted September 17, 2016 Report Share Posted September 17, 2016 But... both Cultivation and Odium are still alive, so they cannot have Cognitive Shadows. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladex454 Posted September 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2016 11 minutes ago, Oversleep said: But... both Cultivation and Odium are still alive, so they cannot have Cognitive Shadows. Wouldn't they still have a reflection within the cognitive realm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasarr she/her Posted September 17, 2016 Report Share Posted September 17, 2016 26 minutes ago, Bladex454 said: Wouldn't they still have a reflection within the cognitive realm? But that's not a cognitive shadow, just a cognitive aspect of something. Cognitive shadow is when the person isn't attached to their physical part any more, as far as I understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted September 17, 2016 Report Share Posted September 17, 2016 Cultivation and Odium are still alive so they don't have cognitive shadows, just cognitive aspects to complement their spiritual and physical aspects. These all act together. I'm more of the opinion that the Stormfather was powerful enough to bond to more than one person at the time, so was the spren for all three of the Bondsmiths. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_of_Awesome Posted September 18, 2016 Report Share Posted September 18, 2016 But if that's the case, then wouldn't the Stormfather achieve some kind of realization of the futility of life, gained from having a higher level of consciousness than most of the storming WORLD? I don't know where I get this. Yes, I think that the Stormfather does bond with multiple people. OR, there could be some kind of spren for Cultivation, and maybe a half-way spren between Cultivation and Honor? I read this theory somewhere, I'm not taking credit for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted September 18, 2016 Report Share Posted September 18, 2016 (edited) 13 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said: I'm more of the opinion that the Stormfather was powerful enough to bond to more than one person at the time, so was the spren for all three of the Bondsmiths. It been explicity stated that there are 3 Bondsmith's Spren...This theory was debunked some time ago. And remember than in the past Desolations, Stormfather was something "less" than the actual one....He was not merged with Tanavast's Shadow in the past (Because Honor was alive then) EDIT: I had problem to find the reference on the Forum therefore I searched in the Brandon's reddit-chronology (where I rememeber it) to find it. https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/4r6ds5/oathbringer_spoilers_stormlight_three_update_3/d66i11c?context=3#d66hqee Quote Q:The pocket companion states that: WoR there are three spren that can bond a person to make them into a bondsmith, the Stormfather being one of them. As far as I recall the books implied that the number was low, and implied heavily that it was around that number in an epigraph, but didn't actually have a straight confirmation. So, should I take that as canon? A:Yes, you can take that as canon. They came to me for that information. Edited September 18, 2016 by Yata 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted September 18, 2016 Report Share Posted September 18, 2016 2 hours ago, Yata said: It been explicity stated that there are 3 Bondsmith's Spren...This theory was debunked some time ago. EDIT: I had problem to find the reference on the Forum therefore I searched in the Brandon's reddit-chronology (where I rememeber it) to find it. https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/4r6ds5/oathbringer_spoilers_stormlight_three_update_3/d66i11c?context=3#d66hqee WOOOO! Finally confirmation! Have all the upvotes, @Yata! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted September 18, 2016 Report Share Posted September 18, 2016 6 hours ago, Yata said: It been explicity stated that there are 3 Bondsmith's Spren...This theory was debunked some time ago. And remember than in the past Desolations, Stormfather was something "less" than the actual one....He was not merged with Tanavast's Shadow in the past (Because Honor was alive then) EDIT: I had problem to find the reference on the Forum therefore I searched in the Brandon's reddit-chronology (where I rememeber it) to find it. https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/4r6ds5/oathbringer_spoilers_stormlight_three_update_3/d66i11c?context=3#d66hqee Thanks a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightblade Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 Could Bondspren be Spren that already existed on Roshar? And Stormfather was already on Roshar Pre Shards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 2 hours ago, Nightblade said: Could Bondspren be Spren that already existed on Roshar? And Stormfather was already on Roshar Pre Shards. The Stormfather is Tanavast's cognitive shadow, the vessel of Honor, so he couldn't have existed before H&C arrived on Roshar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eki Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 31 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said: The Stormfather is Tanavast's cognitive shadow, the vessel of Honor, so he couldn't have existed before H&C arrived on Roshar. The Stormfather existed before then. When Tanavast died, his Cognitive Shadow merged with the spren, to create the being we know now. More on the Coppermind: http://coppermind.net/wiki/Stormfather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted September 29, 2016 Report Share Posted September 29, 2016 2 hours ago, Eki said: The Stormfather existed before then. When Tanavast died, his Cognitive Shadow merged with the spren, to create the being we know now. More on the Coppermind: http://coppermind.net/wiki/Stormfather Right. Where does it say that he existed before then? It sounds familiar, so I'm sure you're right, but I can't recall exactly where it said that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eki Posted September 29, 2016 Report Share Posted September 29, 2016 6 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said: Right. Where does it say that he existed before then? It sounds familiar, so I'm sure you're right, but I can't recall exactly where it said that. The books don't say it outright, but the Listeners have legends about the Rider of the Storms that go back a very long time. Probably long before Honor even arrived on the planet. Likely, he is about as old (if not exactly as old) as the highstorms themselves. There are also WoBs that heavily imply that the two merged. Quote Interview: Oct 9th, 2015 Shadows of Self - San Francisco Question Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time... Brandon Sanderson Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s cognitive shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted September 29, 2016 Report Share Posted September 29, 2016 (edited) There also a direct reference in the books (I think it was Pattern) who said the Stormfather suffered an OathBreaking....and the Recreance was before Honor's death Edited September 29, 2016 by Yata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eki Posted September 29, 2016 Report Share Posted September 29, 2016 47 minutes ago, Yata said: There also a direct reference in the books (I think it was Pattern) who said the Stormfather suffered an OathBreaking....and the Recreance was before Honor's death I don't remember this... That would be really interesting though! Did the merging with Tanavast's cognitive shadow revive the spren? Did it overwrite its mind? Did Honor revive it before he splintered? Did highstorms occur when he was gone (if he was)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted September 29, 2016 Report Share Posted September 29, 2016 (edited) I will try to find the reference from the book, but as far as I remeber it's like "he suffered the oathbreak but survive from his own". I think Tanvast's Shadow merged with a compatible Stormfather to give to it a indipendence to keep fight in the Physical without a RK (they left before this point) EDIT: Ok I found the reference, but I can't post it (my book is in another language). It's in the chapter 75 of WoR and as I remeber is made by Pattern. It's like (not exact wording but a letteral traslation): Quote "Not a single popolation" said Pattern " A lot of them, The Spren capable of thinking were less frequently at that time, and a lot of different species was all bonded. There was a really low number of survivors. The one you call Stormfather was one of them. The remain, thousands of us, was killed when the event happened. You call it Recreance" Edited September 29, 2016 by Yata 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel he/him Posted September 30, 2016 Report Share Posted September 30, 2016 (edited) Here's the US English version (emphasis not added): Quote “Not just one people,” Pattern said, solemn. “Many. Spren with minds were less plentiful then, and the majorities of several spren peoples were all bonded. There were very few survivors. The one you call Stormfather lived. Some others. The rest, thousands of us, were killed when the event happened. You call it the Recreance.” Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (The Stormlight Archive, Book 2) (p. 888). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. Edited September 30, 2016 by Argel 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardbearer he/him Posted September 30, 2016 Report Share Posted September 30, 2016 Where do we have confirmation that Honor died after the recreance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects he/him Posted September 30, 2016 Report Share Posted September 30, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Shardbearer said: Where do we have confirmation that Honor died after the Recreance? It was only a semi-committal WoB. IIRC, Brandon included the words "I think" in his response, but either he implied(or we assumed that he implied) that Honor had memory of the Recreance so he could show it in one of Dalinar's visions. Edit, I found it now. Quote Question Was Honor Shattered before or after the Recreance? Brandon Sanderson I believe after. I'm pretty sure. I mean, he has memories of the Recreance. Edited September 30, 2016 by The One Who Connects 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eki Posted September 30, 2016 Report Share Posted September 30, 2016 2 hours ago, Shardbearer said: Where do we have confirmation that Honor died after the recreance? Actually, the quotes above heavily imply it. Pattern says there were many fewer spren with minds back then - and spren are splinters. Honor splintering would massively increase the number of splinters on the planet. I never read the quote as necessarily saying the Stormfather was bonded to a Knight who gave up their oaths, though. Just that he survived the Recreance, which very few did. I guess it is a possibility though. Even likely. I can think of a few different ways a spren could survive the breaking of oaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardbearer he/him Posted October 1, 2016 Report Share Posted October 1, 2016 @Eki Oh I forgot about that tidbit from Pattern, that makes perfect sense. As for the original topic... I highly doubt that a KR would bond Odium or a Shadow of Odium. I think it's also unlikely that all 3 Bondsmiths would have bonded the Stormfather. 3 seems like to arbitrary a number for a limit on how many people could bond a powerful spren. If there were only ever 3 Bondsmiths, it seems likely to me that it is because there are 3 spren they can bond to. My theory is that these spren are the Stormfather, Cuschiesh, and the Nightwatcher. The Stormfather is closely related to Honor, and probably always was before becoming his Shadow. The Nightwatcher seems to have a similar relationship to Cultivation. Who knows if Cuschiesh is tied to any of the Shards in a similar way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects he/him Posted October 1, 2016 Report Share Posted October 1, 2016 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Shardbearer said: The Stormfather is closely related to Honor, and probably always was before becoming his Shadow. The Nightwatcher seems to have a similar relationship to Cultivation. Who knows if Cuschiesh is tied to any of the Shards in a similar way... KR spren are supposed to be a mix of Honor/Cultivation investiture, perhaps Cuschiesh is the same way? Edit: 1 for Honor, 1 for Cultivation, 1 for Both.. that could fit with that quote about the Bondsmiths Quote But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious. —Words of Radiance, chapter 16, page 14 Breaking the 1 per arrangement when it comes to the Spren of Gods could potentially fit "seditious" if you look at it a certain way Edited October 1, 2016 by The One Who Connects 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 20 hours ago, Shardbearer said: I highly doubt that a KR would bond Odium or a Shadow of Odium. I think it's also unlikely that all 3 Bondsmiths would have bonded the Stormfather. 3 seems like to arbitrary a number for a limit on how many people could bond a powerful spren. If there were only ever 3 Bondsmiths, it seems likely to me that it is because there are 3 spren they can bond to. My theory is that these spren are the Stormfather, Cuschiesh, and the Nightwatcher. Yes, as I posted before the theory of the Stormfather as only Bondsmith's spren was debunked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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