Why Szeth is truthless

[Chlehrma]

@bloodfalcon

I think Truth as it is put in that passage sounds like a living entity in all but one of the sentences. Like maybe Truth was the Shard of aldonasium the the shin worshipped. This was an early draft and Brandon appears to have swapped in Cultivation as the shardic entity linked to the shin. Though it looks like honor is more the reason that Szeth behaves as he does, or rather his tortured idea of honor.

the lethani is as the lethani is.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Chlehrma

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Once again, my point is that nowhere in any text does it say that being Truthless is unique to Szeth. In both the actual Way of Kings, as well as in the deleted scene, it's heavily implied that to be Truthless is to not have any choice about one's actions, and be bound to do as commanded by the holder of one's stone. We are explicitly told that the Shin trade warriors amongst each other by means of stones. I will admit that is not hard evidence that the Shin regard all warriors as Truthless, but it's certainly something to think about. And again - if there is any text, anywhere, that indicated that being Truthless is unique to Szeth, someone please quote it.

 

Thresh's comment "I do not think we will have another like him...." could mean "another person who picks up an Honorblade and becomes a Surgebinding Truthless assassin"

 

Right, the point of that quote was to say that if he hopes to never have another case similar to Szeth- a Truthless - he would be saying they also hope to never have another warrior. In the same way, if he will not trade Szeth for value because he is Truthless, but he will trade other warriors as is common, all warriors are not Truthless.

I'm not one to try bringing down a theory unless there are clear contradictions, and these are pretty clear.

[Macen he/him]

I like where the comments are going here. I still believe that the truthless part has more to do with Szeths knowledge and status before he became truthless. He seems to fanatically stick to his truthless 'restrictions' which implies a lot of devotion to his beliefs. I feel like this implies that he was a leader or had some sort of 'status' in his culture.

I can get behind the Szeth holding an Honorblade (I don't like it, but more and more it seems to fit) but he still is far too trained in the use of the shardblade and the windrunner powers to just be someone who picked up a blade and be that amazing.

Doing a lookback at his chapters and the 'deleted scenes' it appears Szeth was trained to be a warrior, but we don't know enough about the Shin culture to speculate too much - perhaps they are ALL trained, but forbidden to take up arms.

I'm curious as to how Mr. T knows about him being truthless (he appears to know a lot about everything).

Sorry for the like 5 different thoughts thrown together in one post. I tend to use my posts like my own personal brainstorm

P.S. I know that a lot of these things have been said in other posts - i'm just trying to link them all together in my head. I feel putting them all in one post might give one of you an idea that can link them all - because I can't quite get it right.

[Macen he/him]

So

I am only halfway through the book, but Szeth stating along the lines of "They told me I was a liar" pretty much confirms this theory. I know I wasn't the first, but I'm still pretty damnation proud of myself

[EC11 he/him]

So

I am only halfway through the book, but Szeth stating along the lines of "They told me I was a liar" pretty much confirms this theory. I know I wasn't the first, but I'm still pretty damnation proud of myself

 

Well it seems 

 

Szeth was banished because he thought he was one of the Knights Radiant returned and so was thought to be a liar. However, unlike what I originally theorized I'm assuming he wasn't given the Honorblade when he left rather he had it when he was banished. This does not completely explain his banishment however

[ericth]

Well it seems 

 

Szeth was banished because he thought he was one of the Knights Radiant returned and so was thought to be a liar. However, unlike what I originally theorized I'm assuming he wasn't given the Honorblade when he left rather he had it when he was banished. This does not completely explain his banishment however

 

My interpretation was that Shin religous/cultural beliefs are hinged on the voidbringers and radiants/surgebinders being gone forever.  They obviously scooped up all the honor blades and they were left behind with the cover story of the desolations being over.  Underminding that justification would not sit well with the stone shaman.

My bet is Szeth voiced a different opinion where either the wrong people or too many people heard him and it could not be hushed up.

If the "Truth" of the shin is somehow predicated on the voidbringers and radiants being gone, they would need to come down hard on him for being a heretic.

[junior]

 

Well it seems 

 

Szeth was banished because he thought he was one of the Knights Radiant returned and so was thought to be a liar. However, unlike what I originally theorized I'm assuming he wasn't given the Honorblade when he left rather he had it when he was banished. This does not completely explain his banishment however

 

My interpretation was that Shin religous/cultural beliefs are hinged on the voidbringers and radiants/surgebinders being gone forever.  They obviously scooped up all the honor blades and they were left behind with the cover story of the desolations being over.  Underminding that justification would not sit well with the stone shaman.

My bet is Szeth voiced a different opinion where either the wrong people or too many people heard him and it could not be hushed up.

If the "Truth" of the shin is somehow predicated on the voidbringers and radiants being gone, they would need to come down hard on him for being a heretic.

 

 

There's a very vague hint in WoR that seems to me to suggest that

Mr. Yo Yo intelligence intentionally manipulated events to create a Truthless.

[happyman he/him]

There's a very vague hint in WoR that seems to me to suggest that

Mr. Yo Yo intelligence intentionally manipulated events to create a Truthless.

 

That's almost certainly exactly what that hint means.  Here's the full quote in all its insane glory:

 

AhbuttheywereleftbehindItisobviousfromthenatureofthebondButwherewherewherewhereSetoffObviousRealizationlikeapricityTheyarewiththeShinWemustfindoneCanwemaketouseaTruthlessCanwecraftaweapon

 

My reading of this is that Taragavinian is trying to figure out where the Honorblades went when the Heralds abandoned them.  He realizes they have to be around somewhere (metaphysical insight of some sort), makes the leap somehow that they are with the Shin (probably some historical/mythological hints we aren't privy to) and in turn realizes that they can use this to (somehow) get Szeth created.  Perhaps they used an honorblade to make Szeth think that Radiants had returned?  It's true, of course, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a lie when Szeth claimed it.

 

This is supported in Taragavinians interlude where he talks with Szeth, telling him that an Honorblade had vanished from the Shin.  They both take it as given that the Shin have most of them.  Given that Szeth's blade is explicitly described as being an Honorblade at the end, I think we can take all this as pretty much established.

 

In fact, I think we can say with some certainty that Taragavinian essentially created Szeth for exactly use he later put him.  Wow.

 

[Argent he/him]

Much like the thread about summoning a Shardblade away from the Shardbearer's hand, I think this thread would be best continued in the Words of Radiance forum, because the information provided in the second book is significant enough to change all discussions that include only The Way of Kings lore.

[happyman he/him]

Much like the thread about summoning a Shardblade away from the Shardbearer's hand, I think this thread would be best continued in the Words of Radiance forum, because the information provided in the second book is significant enough to change all discussions that include only The Way of Kings lore.

 

This.  WoR pretty much spelled out Mr. Yoyo IQ's involvement with creating Szeth.

Edited March 12, 2014 by happyman

[Argent he/him]

The reason I was vague about it so so we don't keep spoiling this forum, happyman

 

Could you please edit your post so you don't reveal half of the circumstances around Szeth's Truthlessness?

Edited March 9, 2014 by Argent

[Guest Shash]

I see a lot of talk about the "Lethani." What is the Lethani?

[Isomere]

Lethani is from a Patrick rothfuss novel "the name of the wind". It basically is a reference to the innate ability of humans to know what is morally correct in any situation.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

I see a lot of talk about the "Lethani." What is the Lethani?

Isomere just responded with an explanation; let me respond with a demand: go read The Name of the Wind. It is beautifully written and has some very interesting concepts. Brandon Sanderson is close with him which led me to read it, and I would recommend it before a lot of other great books. 

[happyman he/him]

The reason I was vague about it so so we don't keep spoiling this forum, happyman

 

Could you please edit your post so you don't reveal half of the circumstances around Szeth's Truthlessness?

 

Whoops.  Lost track of which forum I was in.

[Levian]

I think there's a pretty big significance to the fact that Szeth mentions that the "Voidbringers" could hold in Stormlight much more effectively. So far as we know, no Voidbringers can hold Stormlight. So that means the Shin think that the KR are Voidbringers. Why must his honor demand that the Voidbringers exist? Remember that the Voidbringers he is talking about existing are Surgebinders in the context of that quote.

 

Not sure if this is WoR knowledge but just in case...

 

Maybe he was given his Honorblade by a Radiant (Jezrien himself?) rather than given to by the Stone Shamans as part of his punishment? He may have been tasked with something by a Herald, which is why his honor demands him to believe in the Surgebinders. Just a wild thought.

[Matrim Bloody Cauthon he/him]

I believe that he was declared truthless because the shin leaders knew that the voidbringers exist but they don't want that getting out to everyone else. so when szeth started asking about the voidbringers and the radiants they cast him out before he could convince others that they existed.

 

I believe that the shin leaders were scared of what was to come and didn't want to show it or let the shin become involved. thus szeth must leave shinovar.

[Darkness Ascendant he/him]

I apologize in advance, I didn't take the time to search to see if this was somewhere else. My theory is based on this quote:"Holding his breath, he clung to the Stormlight. He could still feel it leaking out. Stormlight could be held for only a short time, a few minutes at most. It leaked away, the human body too porous a container. He had heard that the Voidbringers could hold it in perfectly. But, then, did they even exist? His punishment declared that they didn’t. His honor demanded that they did."

 

I believe that Szeth is truthless because he went against the beliefs of his people. I believe he was a pretty prodomenant member of the Shin culture (he can lash and has a Shardblade) and he went against their common beliefs and tried to convert others.

I think Szeth know's the Everstorm is coming, tried to preach it, got cast out as a truthless (he spoke lies against their beliefs).

He has an Honorblade not a Shardblade.

[DreamEternal]

Uh, you should generaly avoid ressurecting old threads unless most of their information is still up to date and you have something important to add.

Edited August 31, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Darkness Ascendant he/him]

Uh, you should generaly avoid ressurectingnold threads unless most of their information is still up to date and you have something important to add.

I am writing a fan-faction in which the events of WoK and WoR r told completely from Szeth's point of view. I was wondering why he was truthless and came across this.

[natc]

And that excuses awakening lifeless threads, why?

[Macen he/him]

He has an Honorblade not a Shardblade.

This theory was before WoR ever came out (when we learned he has an Honorblade).

[hoser he/him]

Uh, you should generaly avoid ressurecting old threads unless most of their information is still up to date and you have something important to add.

As a post in a theory thread in a book forum, this is perfectly acceptable.  From here:

On that same note, don't bring back topics that have been dead forever. This is called thread necromancy (or simply "necroing"). If after a long time you post something new in a topic--one whose discussion has long since ended--that would be thread necroing. We're going to be more lenient about this on the Brandon Sanderson forums, because if you have something to add in the "Mistborn Movie Casting" topic and there hasn't been a post there in a great while, why shouldn't you? You're adding something to the discussion, that's fantastic! A lot of the Books forums will have theory threads, and if you have something to add to them which just perfectly fits the topic, better to revive a dead thread, right?

 

And that excuses awakening lifeless threads, why?

Because that is the forum policy. 

 

In general, I find thread-necroing is generally harmless and well-meaning, done by inexperienced participants that I would like to see welcomed appreciatively. 

 

I experience complaints about thread-necroing to be snarky, impatient and devoid of content from more experienced forum members.  They seem like borderline bullying to me. 

[Macen he/him]

As a post in a theory thread in a book forum, this is perfectly acceptable.  From here:

 

Because that is the forum policy. 

 

In general, I find thread-necroing is generally harmless and well-meaning, done by inexperienced participants that I would like to see welcomed appreciatively. 

 

I experience complaints about thread-necroing to be snarky, impatient and devoid of content from more experienced forum members.  They seem like borderline bullying to me. 

While I agree with you in most situations, resurrecting a thread that the whole basis was before WoR, with information learned after WoR was release (and thread had died before WoR) is counter-productive and seems like someone is trying to find an easy "You're wrong".

I really don't think that's what Eternal Radiance was doing, but it can come off that way though.

[hoser he/him]

I still don't know exactly what Szeth did. So the thread still seems relevant to me.

I found the post borderline informative, particularly since Honorblades are a type of Shardblade.

I also appreciate that your initial response showed sensitivity.

However, neither of the posts about necroing added anything relevant, IMO. The necroing post seemed like honest engagement to me.