Macen he/him Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 I apologize in advance, I didn't take the time to search to see if this was somewhere else. My theory is based on this quote:"Holding his breath, he clung to the Stormlight. He could still feel it leaking out. Stormlight could be held for only a short time, a few minutes at most. It leaked away, the human body too porous a container. He had heard that the Voidbringers could hold it in perfectly. But, then, did they even exist? His punishment declared that they didn’t. His honor demanded that they did." I believe that Szeth is truthless because he went against the beliefs of his people. I believe he was a pretty prodomenant member of the Shin culture (he can lash and has a Shardblade) and he went against their common beliefs and tried to convert others.I think Szeth know's the Everstorm is coming, tried to preach it, got cast out as a truthless (he spoke lies against their beliefs). 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon he/him Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) It is elsewhere, but it is still fun to talk about! This quote in particular has spawned several theories. I made one myself a while back that related the quote to Szeth possessing a Shardblade. I think it is a reasonable assumption that his Truthlessness has something to do with his Blade, Surgebinding, or some culturally specific misconduct. I'm not sure about the converting or the Everstorm, but the rest I like!EDIT: It would be fun if he had seen the same visions as Dalinar though, and attempted to warn people in the same way. There was a WoB that he used to be a respected member of the Shin community. That is similar to what we see with Dalinar. I love speculation. Edited January 22, 2014 by Bloodfalcon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macen he/him Posted January 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 The only reason I tied it to the last part there Blood is due to this: He had heard that the Voidbringers could hold it in perfectly. But, then, did they even exist? His punishment declared that they didn’t. His honor demanded that they did. This implies that his honor demanded he that he believe Voidbringers exist, but his punishment declares that they do not. This implies that he is going against the norm and was punished for it.As far as the blade and surgebinding go, I used to agree with you on that, but I don't know if I do anymore. He has too much training on how both work. We know from WoB that: Szeth's powers are different than KR powers. Combine this with the fact that he is pretty well trained in how it all works, it creates a question. If Szeth was a higher ranking person in their heirarchy (that thinks warriors are the lowest of the low) and started preaching that they needed to prepare for a war against what they consider to be mythical creatures - he would probably be in a lot of trouble. Just a theory though. :/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuantumHarmonix he/him Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 We also know that the Shin treat warriors as their lowest cast, almost like slaves, and picking up a weapon makes you a warrior. So I wonder how much worse picking up a Shardblade would be to the Shin. Personally I like the theory that the Stoneshaman are guarding the honor blades. Szeth was then attacked by a Voidbringer and picked up a blade to defend himself. Later when trying to explain himself there was no proof of the attack, and the heralds had told the world that there were no more Voidbringers. That way his people would see him as lying about the Voidbringers and something worse than a regular warrior, hence Truthless. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arook he/him Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 I think if he was going against his culture that he would have been less likely to just obey as truthless. I also get the feeling that there are other shin with shard blades, other wise how would you reliably retrieve Szeth's blade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Here's something (that will likely end up being irrelevant). Please avoid responding to it here, but if anyone wants to make a theory out of it - we have a forum for it. --- Words of Radiance --- There seems to be some pretty hardcore enmity between the Cryptics and the honorspren. Szeth's powers are damnation near identical to the Kaladin's - the only human currently bound to an honorspren. So it's kind of like Szeth has an honorspren, except we know he doesn't. Cryptics, who are as close to opposite of honorspren as we have seen, are sometimes referred to as liespren. Lie, as in, the opposite of truth. There is no conclusion here. Just a few connected thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macen he/him Posted January 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 But argent... I want to respond... *starts pouting* 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 And you just did. All happy? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon he/him Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) Here's something (that will likely end up being irrelevant). Please avoid responding to it here, but if anyone wants to make a theory out of it - we have a forum for it. --- Words of Radiance --- There seems to be some pretty hardcore enmity between the Cryptics and the honorspren. Szeth's powers are damnation near identical to the Kaladin's - the only human currently bound to an honorspren. So it's kind of like Szeth has an honorspren, except we know he doesn't. Cryptics, who are as close to opposite of honorspren as we have seen, are sometimes referred to as liespren. Lie, as in, the opposite of truth. There is no conclusion here. Just a few connected thoughts. I decided on a new theory that is certainly miles and miles away from being provable, but I think is the most fun with regards to this thread and a reread of Brandon's Szeth draft. It is not technically canon, but Szeth, referred to as Jek in the deleted first draft on brandonsanderson.com, gives several points on what "Truth" is. It seems to be a moral code much like that of the Aiel in WoT. A big piece of that is that you cannot harm a woman, child, or non-warriors. I think that that piece is going to carry over into the final idea of what Truth is. It is telling enough that it is a system rather than "what is trueth or lie". Anyway, to combine our ideas, what if Szeth did know about the Parshendii having a part in the Desolations/Voidbringing, and he harmed the Parshmen that lived in Shinovar. If others weren't convinced, it would be enough to have him considered Truthless for harming non-warriors. If the Parshendii are connected to the Voidbringers, it all connects to that quote rather well! I replied to Argent to get his take on he deleted scenes definition of Truth. Edited January 22, 2014 by Bloodfalcon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 It's possible. I can't think of anything that contradicts me, anyway. We may have gotten too focused on the literal idea of "truth" (and so a Truthless would be some kind of fancy liar or deceiver), while the reality* of it might be more metaphoric - Truth could be something like the Aiel Way, or the Lethani from Kingkiller Chronicle: a code of honor, a set of rules, a way of life. * Man, I really wanted to say "and the truth of it..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) From Szeth's own PoV scenes, I think that to be Truthless simply means to be sworn to an oathstone and to whoever happens to be carrying it. We don't have any other Shin PoVs, but we know from Rysn that they do have other warriors, all of whom are traded amongst the higher-ranking Shin by means of the stones. Therefore, to be Truthless in and of itself is not so unique (although Szeth's fanatical devotion to it may very well be). We are told at one point that "any man who picks up a weapon" becomes one. Please note, however, that this definition leaves a lot of wiggle room in a culture that has developed its own, very effective, school of bare-handed martial arts. It may be that anyone can, and is even encouraged, to learn Shin kung fu, and that it's only the use of a weapon that makes one Truthless. As to what got Szeth named Truthless in the first place, here are some thoughts. The Stone Shaman will "retrieve" his Blade upon his death. This implies some very important facts. For one thing, it means that the Stone Shaman know about the Blade and care enough about it to go retrieve it. It also means that they think it is not acceptable to simply tell Szeth to give it to them, therefore, they have to wait until he dies. Ominously, it means that the Stone Shaman believe themselves capable of knowing when Szeth dies and retrieving the Blade from whoever manages to kill him. I believe that picking up the Blade in the first place is what made Szeth Truthless. The real question is, where did he find it and what made him decide to pick it up? It's possible that he found it on some crazy adventure somewhere else in Roshar, but my theory is that it was in Shinovar all along, possibly with the rest of the Honorblades. Remember, Szeth not only has the Blade, he is very, very practiced at Windrunning, and crucially, he knows about the Lashings. Kaladin doesn't know about them despite having Syl and being a much stronger innate Surgebinder. This means that whatever led to Szeth bearing that Blade also led to him learning about the Windrunner powers and the original names for them. To me, this very strongly implies that the Shin elders are keepers of the Blades and the knowledge of surgebinding. Maybe they dont' use them, or maybe only certain people are allowed to use them and Szeth wasn't on the list. Now, what does this all have to do with his thoughts on the Voidbringers? Well, we know that he does NOT associate them with the Parshendi, since his PoV chapter never links these mythical villains to the people who were his employers that night. In that, he's like everyone else on Roshar. However, he is NOT like everyone else in thinking they are myths, since he obviously did something very momentous, like picking up his Blade, in response to a belief in their existence. So then, what did he find out about them? My theory - Szeth found out about Nahel spren returning, and believed that the new Surgebinders were the Voidbringers, or at least were on the path to becoming Voidbringers. He then picked up the Blade to fight one, and became Truthless when the Shamans didn't believe him. This would tie in very neatly with a certain Azish constable's thoughts on the matter. It would also make Jasnah's/Shallan's theory on the Parshendi incomplete at best, which I like - it's not in Brandon's style to give us the big reveal on the Voidbringers at the end of the first book :-) Edited January 23, 2014 by 11thorderknight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon he/him Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 From Szeth's own PoV scenes, I think that to be Truthless simply means to be sworn to an oathstone and to whoever happens to be carrying it. We don't have any other Shin PoVs, but we know from Rysn that they do have other warriors, all of whom are traded amongst the higher-ranking Shin by means of the stones. Therefore, to be Truthless in and of itself is not so unique (although Szeth's fanatical devotion to it may very well be). We are told at one point that "any man who picks up a weapon" becomes one. Please note, however, that this definition leaves a lot of wiggle room in a culture that has developed its own, very effective, school of bare-handed martial arts. It may be that anyone can, and is even encouraged, to learn Shin kung fu, and that it's only the use of a weapon that makes one Truthless. As to what got Szeth named Truthless in the first place, here are some thoughts. The Stone Shaman will "retrieve" his Blade upon his death. This implies some very important facts. For one thing, it means that the Stone Shaman know about the Blade and care enough about it to go retrieve it. It also means that they think it is not acceptable to simply tell Szeth to give it to them, therefore, they have to wait until he dies. Ominously, it means that the Stone Shaman believe themselves capable of knowing when Szeth dies and retrieving the Blade from whoever manages to kill him. I believe that picking up the Blade in the first place is what made Szeth Truthless. The real question is, where did he find it and what made him decide to pick it up? It's possible that he found it on some crazy adventure somewhere else in Roshar, but my theory is that it was in Shinovar all along, possibly with the rest of the Honorblades. Remember, Szeth not only has the Blade, he is very, very practiced at Windrunning, and crucially, he knows about the Lashings. Kaladin doesn't know about them despite having Syl and being a much stronger innate Surgebinder. This means that whatever led to Szeth bearing that Blade also led to him learning about the Windrunner powers and the original names for them. To me, this very strongly implies that the Shin elders are keepers of the Blades and the knowledge of surgebinding. Maybe they dont' use them, or maybe only certain people are allowed to use them and Szeth wasn't on the list. Now, what does this all have to do with his thoughts on the Voidbringers? Well, we know that he does NOT associate them with the Parshendi, since his PoV chapter never links these mythical villains to the people who were his employers that night. In that, he's like everyone else on Roshar. However, he is NOT like everyone else in thinking they are myths, since he obviously did something very momentous, like picking up his Blade, in response to a belief in their existence. So then, what did he find out about them? My theory - Szeth found out about Nahel spren returning, and believed that the new Surgebinders were the Voidbringers, or at least were on the path to becoming Voidbringers. He then picked up the Blade to fight one, and became Truthless when the Shamans didn't believe him. This would tie in very neatly with a certain Azish constable's thoughts on the matter. It would also make Jasnah's/Shallan's theory on the Parshendi incomplete at best, which I like - it's not in Brandon's style to give us the big reveal on the Voidbringers at the end of the first book :-) Being Truthless is unique. Rsyn's mentor asks about the possibility of getting another Truthless, and the Shin man responds with something along the lines of "no, and I hope we never experience anything like him for a long time." It makes him sound like an anomaly. That and the deleted scene says that Truth is about much more than being bound to a stone. I don't think the concept changed THAT much. The "Stone shaman will retrieve the Blade" line I think is also overstated on the forum. I only noticed on my reread, but in context, it doesn't sound like they will be using some crazy knowledge or ability to retrieve the Blade. It sounds like a standardized thing. Like, we can just send another of our amazing assassins to go kill whoever took it. I think Szeth is special in his assassin abilities, but I think he was just remarking that when the Shin learned of his death, they would take the necessary steps to get it back. Personally I hope they do have some crazy connection with the Blade so that it is extra significant somehow, but I just don't hear it the same way anymore. I made a post a while back that connected the stone shamans to the Honorblades and theorized an extremely similar cause, and I still want that to be the case. Recently I have also been thinking it is possible for the Shin to be the descendants of some KR as well. They do seem to know an awful lot about things, including Surgebinding. Tanavast as well as the rest of the histories of Roshar say that the Recreance was the end of the Knights Radiant, but the distinction is also made several times in the book that KR are not the same thing as Surgebinders. That is a great point on Szeth POV's not freaking out about Parshendii. I missed a very very obvious point there. But the gist is that I think he want against the Truth in one of those ways that got him temporarily banned until someone considered him worthy of returning and sent him back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chlehrma Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Considering that the shin place a great deal of importance on truth, it is very likely that he was truthless specifically because of his claims that the voidbringers are real while his society decided the opposite is true. Truthless=liar in is case. The blade belongs to the stone shamans and may have been part of his punishment for claiming void bringers were real. The curiosity is that he knows kamar in a culture where fighting is deemed wrong--though perhaps their prohibition is on weapons and not fighting. One thing I find strange about the Shin is their worship of stone especially considering that thundeclasts are stone. Is someone over there actively working to protect the soldiers of Odium? Additionally, why are we not allowed to go the their farms? What are they hiding? Do they have a bunch of cultivation spren helping them out? And if they don't make armor, why do they need all that metal? The shin are up to something. I saw we go kick their scrawny little...oh...sorry got a bit carried away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alaxel Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 ...Truth could be something like the Aiel Way, or the Lethani from Kingkiller Chronicle: a code of honor, a set of rules, a way of life. What is the Lethani? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser he/him Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 From Szeth's own PoV scenes, I think that to be Truthless simply means to be sworn to an oathstone and to whoever happens to be carrying it. We don't have any other Shin PoVs, but we know from Rysn that they do have other warriors, all of whom are traded amongst the higher-ranking Shin by means of the stones. Therefore, to be Truthless in and of itself is not so unique (although Szeth's fanatical devotion to it may very well be). ... ... I believe that picking up the Blade in the first place is what made Szeth Truthless. ... Now, what does this all have to do with his thoughts on the Voidbringers? .. My theory - .... He then picked up the Blade to fight one, and became Truthless when the Shamans didn't believe him. ... Warriors have Oathstones, but are not Truthless. As Bloodfalcon points out, the Rysn interlude includes a passage indicating that he may be the first ever Truthless. I agree that he did something to oppose the Voidbringers, but I think he really did something, as his "crime" corresponds to the start of the death rattles. I agree that the Shin trained him in Shardblade use and windrunning, so they must have had the at least the one blade and a culture around it's use. Mr. T. mentions that Szeth was given the "monstrosity" of a Shardblade by his people and he doesn't disagree. I assume it is part of his punishment. It also doesn't make sense to me that his punishment would be more of his crime. Being Truthless is unique. Rsyn's mentor asks about the possibility of getting another Truthless, and the Shin man responds with something along the lines of "no, and I hope we never experience anything like him for a long time." It makes him sound like an anomaly. That and the deleted scene says that Truth is about much more than being bound to a stone. I don't think the concept changed THAT much. ... But the gist is that I think he want against the Truth in one of those ways that got him temporarily banned until someone considered him worthy of returning and sent him back. Ooh, I so want one of his owners to give him a sock or shatter his oathstone and tell him to go forth and sin no more . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 So, I remember the Shin farmer saying that Szeth is unique, but I don't remember any mention of the term Truthless in that scene. I could be wrong, but if I am, could someone please find the quote where Szeth's nature as Truthless (not just Szeth himself) is stated to be unique? Because otherwise, I'm gonna stand by my belief that anyone who can be traded around by an oathstone is Truthless in Shin society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon he/him Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Considering that the shin place a great deal of importance on truth, it is very likely that he was truthless specifically because of his claims that the voidbringers are real while his society decided the opposite is true. Truthless=liar in is case. The blade belongs to the stone shamans and may have been part of his punishment for claiming void bringers were real. The curiosity is that he knows kamar in a culture where fighting is deemed wrong--though perhaps their prohibition is on weapons and not fighting. One thing I find strange about the Shin is their worship of stone especially considering that thundeclasts are stone. Is someone over there actively working to protect the soldiers of Odium? Additionally, why are we not allowed to go the their farms? What are they hiding? Do they have a bunch of cultivation spren helping them out? And if they don't make armor, why do they need all that metal? The shin are up to something. I saw we go kick their scrawny little...oh...sorry got a bit carried away... What is the Lethani? That one was also on my mind, but I'm never sure on this forum if Rothfuss or Jordan is the correct reference. So, I remember the Shin farmer saying that Szeth is unique, but I don't remember any mention of the term Truthless in that scene. I could be wrong, but if I am, could someone please find the quote where Szeth's nature as Truthless (not just Szeth himself) is stated to be unique? Because otherwise, I'm gonna stand by my belief that anyone who can be traded around by an oathstone is Truthless in Shin society. 11th and Chleh, I invite you both to read the deleted scene if you haven't already. It looks like they put great value on truth, but Truth is something more. "I will remember, friend,” Thresh said. “But I do not think it likely we will have another like him.” He seemed to grow distracted. “Indeed, I should hope that we never do….” That sounds just a tad bit more dramatic than "wow, he was fighting and we don't accept that." I think it was more like, he did something extremely vile - according to Truth. Chleh, there is also a very strange tradition with the Parshendii and parshmen where they are compelled to place their dead on a slab of stone. There is definitely a connection there, I just can't put everything together on it, though I have had some thoughts that it has something to do with turning them into Thunderclasts at some point. Not sure, but it would mean they have been alright dying in this war because they know that during the Desolation, their bodies will be transformed by some spren to produce something even scarier. Another wild theory thrown at this poor thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 What is the Lethani? The Lethani is like water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alaxel Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 The Lethani is like water. It follows the path of least resistance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asha'man Logain Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 When the mind controls the body, that is of the Lethani. But knowing your limit is also of the Lethani. It is better to rest when needed than to run until you fall. (If I remember correctly) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon he/him Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 I just wanted someone to say "Only the Lethani is of the Lethani" and get it over with. Just blow their minds. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalbusker he/him Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 (If I remember correctly)Being unsure of your memory is not of the Lethani. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) That one was also on my mind, but I'm never sure on this forum if Rothfuss or Jordan is the correct reference. 11th and Chleh, I invite you both to read the deleted scene if you haven't already. It looks like they put great value on truth, but Truth is something more. "I will remember, friend,” Thresh said. “But I do not think it likely we will have another like him.” He seemed to grow distracted. “Indeed, I should hope that we never do….” That sounds just a tad bit more dramatic than "wow, he was fighting and we don't accept that." I think it was more like, he did something extremely vile - according to Truth. Chleh, there is also a very strange tradition with the Parshendii and parshmen where they are compelled to place their dead on a slab of stone. There is definitely a connection there, I just can't put everything together on it, though I have had some thoughts that it has something to do with turning them into Thunderclasts at some point. Not sure, but it would mean they have been alright dying in this war because they know that during the Desolation, their bodies will be transformed by some spren to produce something even scarier. Another wild theory thrown at this poor thread. Once again, my point is that nowhere in any text does it say that being Truthless is unique to Szeth. In both the actual Way of Kings, as well as in the deleted scene, it's heavily implied that to be Truthless is to not have any choice about one's actions, and be bound to do as commanded by the holder of one's stone. We are explicitly told that the Shin trade warriors amongst each other by means of stones. I will admit that is not hard evidence that the Shin regard all warriors as Truthless, but it's certainly something to think about. And again - if there is any text, anywhere, that indicated that being Truthless is unique to Szeth, someone please quote it. Thresh's comment "I do not think we will have another like him...." could mean "another person who picks up an Honorblade and becomes a Surgebinding Truthless assassin" Edited January 23, 2014 by 11thorderknight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter he/him Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 On the "All Shin warriors are Truthless" here are some quotes. (For the record during my last reread I did briefly think this but after reading a few more pages I decided against it) Here, warriors are the lowliest of men--kind of like slaves. Men trade and sell them between houses by way of little stones that signify ownership, and any man who picks up a weapon must join them and be treated the same. Here it is established that warriors being bought and sold is part of Shin culture. Contrast this to latter on in the Rysn interlude: 'He was Truthless,' Thresh said, shrugging. 'He wasn't worth anything at all. You forced me to take something in trade, though to confess, I had to throw your payment into a river. I could not take money for a Truthless.' So normal warriors do have value, but Szeth did not. This indicates, to me at least, that there is a difference between the two. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser he/him Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) They also will not trade normal warriors to foreigners, but they tried to give the Truthless away. "You couldn't trade me a soldier, could you?" Vstim asked as they waited. "They cannot be sold to an outsider, I am afraid." Edited January 23, 2014 by hoser 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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