A Theory On Creating Shardplate

[ScarletSabre he/him]

This has been in my head for a while, and I keep forgetting to post it, so hopefully it'll not be as rambling as I worry it will be xD Forgive me if this has already been speculated/shot down elsewhere!

So, Brandon has been rather close lipped on the origins of Shardplate, if Kaladin is going to get his own, and we've theorised all kinds of things, like the Plate being made of non-sentient Spren locked into Plate forn the same way Spren are locked into non-living Shardblades...

My thought/random theory is this. When a Radiant reaches the final Ideal of their Order, or progresses far enough, they create their own Shardplate... but through Stormlight manipulation.

"But Rawrbert, you crazy, mad, lovable, handsome fool," I hear you say, "What would make you think that? Shardplate has to be more than just hardened Stormlight!" Well, you flattering reader, let me explain my way of thinking.

We've seen Shallan can dim the Stormlight from her skin to blackness, and we've seen that as a Radiant progresses through their Ideals that holding and using Stormlight and Surges becomes easier and more natural to them.

And from what I recall from Dalinar's visions, when he was fighting with and saw Radiants in their prime, their Shardplate glowed at the joints with inner light correspondending to their Order. What we DIDN'T see... was their skin glowing. At no point (Unless I'm recalling incorrectly, as I don't have the book in frony of me at the moment.) does Dalinar mention that the Radiants he sees' skin glow with light at all. Now, he doesn't specifically say that they AREN'T glowing, but that seems like the kind of detail everyone's favourite war dad would notice, especially when he instantly remarks on the glowing Plate in his head.

This, along with Shardplate being powered by infused spheres, and that it can regrow when fed Stormlight, makes me think that a Surgebinder will be able to convert the Stormlight that would make their skin grow, or escape from their pores, into Shardplate, when they become proficient enough with metabolising/using it.

This would also explain why the Radiants in the visions were able to summon and dismiss part of their armour at will, by simply reabsorbing the Stormlight they've hardened around their head to create a helm, or around their fist to make a gauntlet. I suspect the reason Brandon didn't have Dalinar see the dismissal/resummoning of the armour pieces to keep us guessing, since if it formed first from mist or from light we could pretty easily narrow down how it was happening. ^^ Of course it COULD maybe be summoned from the Cognitive Realm, a perfect ideal of armour for each Radiant....

Anyway, thoughts? Praises? Insults? ^-^ Hit meh!

[Rupizzle3]

I like this idea. It makes sense to me that it has to do with growing the plate. We have seen that most of the 16 shards have similarities and since the parshendi grow their own armor it seems consistent that the radiants can grow their own set of armor too. 

[william.sexton3 he/him]

I like this theory! One question that is not answered then, is why does the shardplate stick around after the KR is gone? It makes sense that it would be hardened Stormlight (as stormlight seems to "heal" the shardplate), but I think the minor-spren theory holds more weight.

 

We have seen that Spren can and do hold Stormlight (Pattern holds stormlight that feeds Shallan's illusions) so it would make sense that it would stick around after the KR discards his oath (this act would kill his Major Spren (Shardsword) and his minor spren (shardplate)). What do you think about this?

[Thunder_93]

Your theory doesn't sound bad at all, but recently (like... today or yesterday) I've just read another theory, which I like more.

So, remember how Windspren start to hurl around Kaladin, when he's using his powers? The more he pushes his powers, the more Windspren are attracted to him.

The theory basically says, that the non-sentient Spren (belonging to the Order, Windrunner -> Windspren) form the shardplate.

Which would make sense how humanity got their shardplates, they died and manifested in that form, just like the shardblades. 

Probably, when Kaladin was fighting Szeth, he was really close to obtain his shardplate as he was surounded by many Windspren

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/55761-surgebinding-while-using-shardplate/

Find it at this link

 

[william.sexton3 he/him]

14 minutes ago, Thunder_93 said:

The theory basically says, that the non-sentient Spren (belonging to the Order, Windrunner -> Windspren) form the shardplate.

That is the theory I was talking about. I think that it holds more weight, as well. It answers why shardplate sticks around after the KR either abandon's his oath or dies. I don't remember, though, does Kaladin hear screaming in his head when he holds the helmet-glove? If not, why not? If one touches the shardsword of a dead spren (while attuned to a spren) they hear screaming. So why don't they hear screaming of the plate?

[Thunder_93]

Sorry, didn't notice you've mentioned it  

Hmm, I don't actually remember that he was holding parts of a Shardplate, but it's a while ago I've read the books.

But thinking about it, it could be because the Plate is made of Minor Spren. If they arent sentient, it makes sense to me that he didn't hear any screaming. A Shardblade is something different, as it once was a living being, having feelings and all, and then they got betrayed. But as they weren't even sentient, and were just kind of pulled to him, I'm not sure if you even can say they were betrayed.

 

[galendo]

Touching Plate does not cause Radients to hear screaming -- we may safely conclude that the Plate is therefore not formed of dead spren.

This doesn't contradict the "Windrunner's Plate is wind spren" theory, though, because in this theory, the minor spren aren't dead, just trapped into another shape (as we see fire spren trapped by measurement in one of the interludes).  Thus no screaming.

This theory also seems more likely to me than Plate being hardened Stormlight, though hardened Stormlight would be my number two theory.

[Sand Master]

1 hour ago, galendo said:

Touching Plate does not cause Radients to hear screaming -- we may safely conclude that the Plate is therefore not formed of dead spren.

This doesn't contradict the "Windrunner's Plate is wind spren" theory, though, because in this theory, the minor spren aren't dead, just trapped into another shape (as we see fire spren trapped by measurement in one of the interludes).  Thus no screaming.

This theory also seems more likely to me than Plate being hardened Stormlight, though hardened Stormlight would be my number two theory.

Actually we can't safely conclude that the Plate isn't formed of dead spren. The spren that would conceivably form Plate are very different from the spren that form the Blade, so you can't assume that what is true for one is also true for the other. Now, maybe it is the case that if the Plate were formed by spren, Radiants would hear screaming. But maybe it's that the minor spren (like windspren) are essentially mindless. They're just physical manifestations of Cognitive ideas. The wind has no mind. Neither does a windspren. Only when they are bonded to a human do they begin to form a personality and individuality. When that bond is broken, they "die," reverting back to the mindless form that we see Syl in during the beginning of WoK. So since that mindlessness is already the equivalent of death for spren, then they can't "die" if the KR breaks their Oaths, meaning no screaming.

Now I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case. We still don't know anything for sure. But there's no solid evidence proving that it's impossible, and it does seem to be the most likely theory so far (though I also like the solid Stormlight idea).

[Tr3v0r07]

Twenty-three cohorts followed behind, that came from the contributions of the King of Makabakam, for though the bond between man and spren was at times inexplicable, the ability for bonded spren to manifest in our world rather than their own grew stronger through the course of the oaths given.

- From Words of Radiance, chapter 35, page 9

I believe that Shardplate is a further manifestation of the bonded spren, allowed by stronger oaths, given by the knights, as insinuated by the quote above. Because the plate(post Recreance) is not the primary manifestation it cannot be bonded by the wearer as a Shardblade is, yet if feeds off of the stormlight, in either gemstones or invested by the wearer. This, and the oaths giving the Knights a higher effeciency in stormlight use and investing, could explain why the helmet worn on Kalidan's hand during the duel, drained his stormlight so quickly. He had, at this time only sworn 2 of the 5 ideals. This leads me to believe that Shardplate is made manifest by the bonded spren by speaking either the fourth or fifth ideal, all based on the particular order of the Knight.

[Sand Master]

1 hour ago, Tr3v0r07 said:

Twenty-three cohorts followed behind, that came from the contributions of the King of Makabakam, for though the bond between man and spren was at times inexplicable, the ability for bonded spren to manifest in our world rather than their own grew stronger through the course of the oaths given.

- From Words of Radiance, chapter 35, page 9

I believe that Shardplate is a further manifestation of the bonded spren, allowed by stronger oaths, given by the knights, as insinuated by the quote above. Because the plate(post Recreance) is not the primary manifestation it cannot be bonded by the wearer as a Shardblade is, yet if feeds off of the stormlight, in either gemstones or invested by the wearer. This, and the oaths giving the Knights a higher effeciency in stormlight use and investing, could explain why the helmet worn on Kalidan's hand during the duel, drained his stormlight so quickly. He had, at this time only sworn 2 of the 5 ideals. This leads me to believe that Shardplate is made manifest by the bonded spren by speaking either the fourth or fifth ideal, all based on the particular order of the Knight.

If this is the case though, and Plate was formed by the same spren as the Blade, then why does the Blade make them hear screams and the Plate does not?

[marianmi]

if a plate is just stormlight, then you could split a plate in 2, then feed both stormlight, and create 2.

since that's not possible (probably one of them won't regrow), it means there's a unique cognitive aspect (spren) to the plate, which cannot be replicated/duplicated.

Edited September 29, 2016 by marianmi

[Seeker861]

What if Shardplate is the "spren" of the Nahel Bond and upon speaking the final Oath a Radiant can pull it into the Physical Realm? 

[Sarevok]

I just realized, that over the years blades and plate must have gotten mixed up a bunch, so it's unlikely there's still a blade out there being wielded by someone with the plate the original radiant used. If the plate is an extension of the spren (and of the blade), would it grant either more power if they were re-united? I could see this tying in with the theories of Adolin possibly bringing a blade back to life.

[Quiver he/him]

Honestly, shardplate being crystallised stormlight has been my go to theory for a while now.

...but I really need to reread the books to find actual evidence supporting it.

[galendo]

17 hours ago, Sarevok said:

I just realized, that over the years blades and plate must have gotten mixed up a bunch, so it's unlikely there's still a blade out there being wielded by someone with the plate the original radiant used. If the plate is an extension of the spren (and of the blade), would it grant either more power if they were re-united? I could see this tying in with the theories of Adolin possibly bringing a blade back to life.

This is a cool idea that unfortunately doesn't check out mathematically.  If the Blades and Plates were distributed randomly, it would actually be more likely than not that at least one matching set would exist (at least, assuming that the large majority of Shardbearers had both Blade and Plate, which seems to be the case judging by in-book examples).  Moreover, given that there's still the occasional redistribution of sets of Shards into new sets, the chance that at least one correct match has been made and its heightened powers recognized in the relatively recent past is even higher (again, assuming that the added powers are significant enough to be recognizable; but if not, then whether one has a matched set or not doesn't seem to matter much).  Basically, a situation like you describe would be actually pretty unlikely unless some individual or organization has engineered it.

Of course, your theory might still be correct if the boost is subtle and not easily recognizable.  Maybe there's someone out there who's thought to be a great duelist, when really he isn't any better than anyone else but gets a slight boost in strength and speed over everyone else, or his Plate just has to be hit a bit harder than everyone else's to crack.  But if you're hoping for some sort of massive power boost, it's just not going to work out without some heavy behind-the-scenes manipulation.

[cometaryorbit]

Cool idea. The only solid theory I'd heard before was the minor-spren one, but this might fit better with Kaladin not noticing anything when he touched Shardplate. It would make sense that minor spren might not be conscious enough to be screaming, but there might well still be some kind of 'weird feeling'...

OTOH, I'm not sure that either theory really explains it. The Stormfather tells Dalinar he will be a Radiant without Shards. If Shardplate is just formed from stuff "associated" with a Radiant - whether Stormlight or minor spren - and has nothing directly to do with the main Nahel Bond, why shouldn't Dalinar get it?

[The One Who Connects he/him]

9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

OTOH, I'm not sure that either theory really explains it. The Stormfather tells Dalinar he will be a Radiant without Shards. If Shardplate is just formed from stuff "associated" with a Radiant - whether Stormlight or minor spren - and has nothing directly to do with the main Nahel Bond, why shouldn't Dalinar get it?

I don't think Dalinar had Plate at the time, since he gave his to Renarin. Granted that fact could backfire the point of the next sentence, but oh well.
Stormfather said to "divest yourself of that monstrosity you carry" and basically meant the dead Spren Shardblade

[cometaryorbit]

6 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I don't think Dalinar had Plate at the time, since he gave his to Renarin.

Sure, but the old Radiants got Plate somewhere. If it develops as a part of Radiants reaching the final Oath (whether from solidified Stormlight or minor spren) shouldn't Dalinar get some eventually?

[The One Who Connects he/him]

26 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Sure, but the old Radiants got Plate somewhere. If it develops as a part of Radiants reaching the final Oath (whether from solidified Stormlight or minor spren) shouldn't Dalinar get some eventually?

Not necessarily

Quote

Did all orders of Knights Radiants use Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

It was available to all of them, and they could (all) use it. Many Knights (not Orders) chose not to. There were Knights who were not soldiers and had no interest in wearing Shardplate.

Mainly depends on if Dalinar goes back to the front lines as a warrior or not.

[cometaryorbit]

OK, yeah, but it seemed to me that the Stormfather was saying that Dalinar couldn't get Blade or Plate. If it was available to all of them, pre-Recreance Bondsmiths were able to get it somehow - but if it really has nothing directly to do with the main spren, why can't Dalinar?

[Thinky Think]

I imagine it's because it would kind of defeat the whole purpose of Dalinar shifting his goal. He's set himself to turning The Blackthorn into a politician, and is actively distancing himself from the days of battle. Shardplate, as awesome as it is, is a tool of war meant for combat. It has deep connections in form, function, and cultural consciousness, and Dalinar wearing Plate would immediately make everyone think of him as a warrior, even those who have never even heard of him before. It's also not really practical for day to day things. Theoretically, he could wear plate while acting as a general in the field, but that means there's one less Shardbearer fighting on the front lines or ready to be deployed to where he is needed most, which is not what is needed.

So the only time in the future he'd be wearing Shardplate is if it was lent to him by a Shardbearer under specific circumstances. So there's no point in him having it.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Thinky Think

[Spoolofwhool]

5 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

OK, yeah, but it seemed to me that the Stormfather was saying that Dalinar couldn't get Blade or Plate. If it was available to all of them, pre-Recreance Bondsmiths were able to get it somehow - but if it really has nothing directly to do with the main spren, why can't Dalinar?

It could be because of a shift in mentality. If the Stormfather was one of the spren who bonded to create Bondsmiths in the past, he may be unwilling to led the power necessary to form the shardblade or shardplates now, perhaps because doing so would cause greater damage if Dalinar betrayed his oath, damage that the Stormfather is trying to avoid taking again. Also, it could just be that the Stormfather is weaker at this point and is unwilling to weaken himself further by lending out his power.

@Thinky Think cometaryorbit is not referring to Dalinar giving his shardplate away to Renarin, he's referring to when the Stormfather directly said to him that he would not be able to have a shardblade or shardplate. The fact that he won't be able to receive either of those as a part of being a KR is not because of his political choices, but because the spren he is bonded to is refusing to give him access to them.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[marianmi]

1) KR were created to fight in the desolations. They also helped people to fight. People had bronze armours. If plates are a *construct* like crystallized stormlight, KR would give people shardplates too in fights. Since the plate was available to ALL KR, and NOT available to people => it's *not* a construct. Since now it's available to people, clearly it was possible in the KR time too, they were probably smart enough to figure out powering by gemstones. But they did not do that, probably because the plate is *specific* for KR - they have one available for them, but they cannot give it to people => tied to the spren (or the NB).

2) let me reiterate my point from above: a broken shardplate can be fed stormlight to grow. You can get ONE TINY BIT and grow a full set - if there isn't a bigger part (being fed stormlight). If it's "crystallized stormlight", there won't be an issue taking a glove, feeding the original plate stormlight to grow the glove back, then feeding the glove stormlight to grow the rest of a plate => unlimited plates thru division. This is not happening - always, only 1 plate will regenerate, the other parts will crumble => there's a unique cognitive aspect to the plate.

It's clear the plate is tied to the spren.

[cometaryorbit]

19 hours ago, marianmi said:

1) KR were created to fight in the desolations. They also helped people to fight. People had bronze armours. If plates are a *construct* like crystallized stormlight, KR would give people shardplates too in fights. Since the plate was available to ALL KR, and NOT available to people => it's *not* a construct. Since now it's available to people, clearly it was possible in the KR time too, they were probably smart enough to figure out powering by gemstones. But they did not do that, probably because the plate is *specific* for KR - they have one available for them, but they cannot give it to people => tied to the spren (or the NB).

2) let me reiterate my point from above: a broken shardplate can be fed stormlight to grow. You can get ONE TINY BIT and grow a full set - if there isn't a bigger part (being fed stormlight). If it's "crystallized stormlight", there won't be an issue taking a glove, feeding the original plate stormlight to grow the glove back, then feeding the glove stormlight to grow the rest of a plate => unlimited plates thru division. This is not happening - always, only 1 plate will regenerate, the other parts will crumble => there's a unique cognitive aspect to the plate.

It's clear the plate is tied to the spren.

I agree there is some link to bond or spren, since it is a KR thing. But I don't think it can be formed from the spren since there is no screaming.

It may well be crystallized stormlight, but I don't think it can be just that. That is -- the material may be crystallized stormlight, but something must give it the specific form. Not just that it only regenerates one set of Plate, but the fact that it regenerates into a full set of Plate at all.

The crystallized stormlight theory might not really even be in opposition to the minor spren theory. Spren are splinters, and thus basically made of Shard-stuff. It might be something like (Mistborn HOA spoilers)

Spoiler

Lerasium on Scadrial is basically just the solid form of the Mists; both are the body of the Shard Preservation. But we know that the Mists are analogous to Stormlight. So the metal of both Shardblades and Shardplate might be the solid form of Stormlight - Rosharan Investiture.

 

[Darkness he/him]

I would like to ask Brandon what happened to shardblades and shardplate in the past when a knight radiant died while staying true to his/her oaths... But I can't see a way to ask it that doesn't end in "RAFO"