Speedbubble Thoughts

[ScarletSabre he/him]

Just a couple of things that have been bugging me about Speedbubbles since Alloy of Law....

Why isn't a Slider marksman/sniper an utter killing machine? We've seen that Wayne, inside a speedbubble, can essentially dodge bullets for a time. Likewise, we've seen Wax can draw his aim in a speedbubble and fire as it drops, and hit his target. Therefore a Slider like Wayne would be utterly unstoppable if he was a sniper or a good marksman. All he'd have to do is slow time for a minute or five to get a good aim, drop his bubble, and quite literally, boom.... headshot. (Cue me making a Slider assassin OC who's a sniper for just this reason :D)

And furthermore, this is just a question that's been bugging me, what would happen if I were in a speedbubble and used a spear/pole type of weapon? Not throwing it, as Brandon has answered in WOB, but if I stuck the spear out through the edge of a bubble so half was in and half outside, then spun/swung/swept it, like swinging it like a baseball bat? Would it move relative to me inside the bubble, slow down for the half outside of the bubble and snap, or be sucked through the barrier to not break physics even more than time dialation already does?

Also, are Aluminium bullets also deflected by the barrier, despite being Allomantically/Investidedly Intert? I suppose that would be explained by conservation of kinetic energy and not wanting Speedbubbles to be COMPLETELY OP, but considering Aluminium is immune to everything else, including the decidedly broken Atium....

Edited September 6, 2016 by Rawrbert
Another thought

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Don't have something definitive about the sniper thing, but I feel the speed bubble would blur the scope/alter how you perceive the wind. Or something like that that makes long range unfeasible. Wax and Wayne are firing pistols at short range right?

I'm pretty sure that the spear thing wouldn't work because as stated in that WoB: Objects are either inside or outside of the bubble, not both.
This fact might affect aluminum bullets in a non-magical way, ie: to the bubble, they are objects first and aluminum second. Not really sure, just speculation on my part.

[Oversleep]

The final fight against Vanishers. They're shooting only aluminium. Aluminium bullets are deflected normally.

[iohn he/him]

Would putting a spear or other object through a speed bubble pop it?

Also I'm guessing there are two possible reasons Branderson made Wayne not be able to handle a gun. The first is that he totally thought of this and decided that would be too powerful for a main character, so wanted to limit him, or he's providing a place for Wayne to grow as a character, ie he can overcome his guilt spawned handicap and pick up a gun with confidence just in time to save some people's lives in an epic way or something.

[william.sexton3 he/him]

On 9/6/2016 at 1:50 PM, iohn said:

Would putting a spear or other object through a speed bubble pop it?

So I think that the bigger an item is, the more likely it is to pop the bubble. Like, a bullet will not pop a speed bubble, but a tree (in the case that they were on a train and the speed bubble, moving with the train, hits the tree) would. I doubt that a spear would actually be large enough to.

 

On 9/6/2016 at 1:50 PM, iohn said:

Also I'm guessing there are two possible reasons Branderson made Wayne not be able to handle a gun. The first is that he totally thought of this and decided that would be too powerful for a main character, so wanted to limit him, or he's providing a place for Wayne to grow as a character, ie he can overcome his guilt spawned handicap and pick up a gun with confidence just in time to save some people's lives in an epic way or something.

Sanderson specifically put the limit on this power, to stop it from being too powerful (since physics limits the other powers), but that gun thing is way too much a part of Wayne's character. I doubt that he will ever develop out of this particular character trait. 

[Sarevok]

On 6-9-2016 at 7:50 PM, iohn said:

Would putting a spear or other object through a speed bubble pop it?

 

On 9-9-2016 at 6:34 PM, william.sexton3 said:

So I think that the bigger an item is, the more likely it is to pop the bubble. Like, a bullet will not pop a speed bubble, but a tree (in the case that they were on a train and the speed bubble, moving with the train, hits the tree) would. I doubt that a spear would actually be large enough to.

I actually suspect "bubble" is more a way to describe the shape of the time-effect than something phisical. I think throwing a spear into it, it's more likely to shatter the spear, because the front is suddenly moving faster than the back. Bullets probably survice because they're small and therefore break the barrier much more quickly.

[Yata he/him]

6 hours ago, Sarevok said:

 

I actually suspect "bubble" is more a way to describe the shape of the time-effect than something phisical. I think throwing a spear into it, it's more likely to shatter the spear, because the front is suddenly moving faster than the back. Bullets probably survice because they're small and therefore break the barrier much more quickly.

An object may be inside the bubble's effect OR outside of it. It's no possible the "one part is accelerate and the other no".

This mean (probably) that at first someone who try to hit an allomancer in a bubble would feel nothing strange (and from the allomancer's pow the spear travel as fast as outside the bubble) then when the Spear became part of the bubble (But I don't really know when this would happen). Its momentum would be converted in the bubble's standard, the Allomancer will see the Spear accelerate/decellerate as his timeframe and probably the spearman would suffer some loss of controll when his weapon suddenly change his momentum (from the Spearman's timeframe).

[DeTess she/her]

On the sniper topic, i think it wold be possible, but require very specialized training (in addition to normal sniper training) if you want to hit anything at long range. The reason for this is that estimating the speed(and therefore the amount of lead that you need to give) becomes very difficult in a speed bubble. other factors, like wind, might also become difficult to detect.

[Savanorn he/him]

I think Randuir has it. 

But, furthermore, I feel like as a sniper your job is pretty much to take position and wait for an opportunity. Slowing time isn't really as useful when time isn't really an essentially commodity. 

Compare and contrast to a Wax and Wayne style thing. When you are brawling and using shorter range firearms every extra second to think starts to matter. 

Really I would guess that f.zinc or f.steel would be better for a sniper. But then again f.steel is pretty much never not an particularly pertinent power.

[Jondesu he/him]

Allomantic or Feruchemical tin would almost be best for a sniper. Feruchemical perhaps more so, or a compounder best of all, since with Feruchemy you can just store and then enhance your sense of sight, and perhaps touch (to feel the wind at your own location). Simultaneously storing hearing might help to reduce distractions, and I'm sure other things would help.

Off topic, just something I thought of when I read the talk of snipers.

jW

[Sarevok]

On 11-9-2016 at 9:02 AM, Yata said:

An object may be inside the bubble's effect OR outside of it. It's no possible the "one part is accelerate and the other no".

Do we have an example from the books or a WoB on that? I can't think of any...

[Jondesu he/him]

1 minute ago, Sarevok said:

Do we have an example from the books or a WoB on that? I can't think of any...

Only the bullets, I think.  Their trajectory changing seems to be a function of simply abruptly traveling at a different speed, rather than part of it moving at one speed and part at another speed.  I'm pretty sure there's been WoB's on that.

jW

[The One Who Connects he/him]

8 minutes ago, Sarevok said:

On 9/11/2016 at 2:02 AM, Yata said:

An object may be inside the bubble's effect OR outside of it. It's no possible the "one part is accelerate and the other no".

Do we have an example from the books or a WoB on that? I can't think of any...

Here    Added emphasis of course

Quote

Kurkistan

Time Bubbles:

If you are standing inside of a time bubble, and throw a spear out of the bubble, what happens to that spear as it traverses the border of the bubble? Are different parts of the spear ever in different "time zones," going fundamentally different speeds?

On that line of reasoning, what would happen to a train and its occupants if Marisi stood next to railroad tracks holding up a Cadmium bubble while that train sped by?

Brandon Sanderson

In general, a large object going through a time bubble is not going to notice. An object is either in or out, and it depends in part on how the object views itself. People inside the train would be inside of its influence, and wouldn't notice the bubble. The spear would go from one to the other, but would never be in both.

And also this, which I haven't seen before

Quote

Kurkistan

So when that cork [in Bands of Mourning] was thrown above the train, if the cork had been thrown by someone who was standing _besides_ the train, what would have happened when the bubble hit [the cork]? So the bubble's moving at 60mph and the cork [is not moving laterally relative to the bubble] and gets hit by a bubble...

Brandon Sanderson

Right. Right right right... So... this one's complicated. Let me see if I can... So anything that touches the bubble will be immediately lodged into the bubble, and be hit by that... So say you throw something up, the bubble hits it, is that what you're asking?

It's shortened for convenience, as the rest was arguing the physics of the question, ending with "Ask Peter to confirm the math"

[Sarevok]

10 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

An object is either in or out, and it depends in part on how the object views itself.

Emphasis mine. This is why I love Brandon so much. This way of thinking ties directly back into (possible WoK/WoR spoiler):

Spoiler

Soulcasting

 

[Yata he/him]

@The One Who Connects already provided the reference....The Deflection isn't relate to the different speed-momentum, A Sniper simply can't guest how is bullet would be affected

[Jondesu he/him]

18 hours ago, Sarevok said:

Emphasis mine. This is why I love Brandon so much. This way of thinking ties directly back into (possible WoK/WoR spoiler):

  Reveal hidden contents

Soulcasting

 

9 hours ago, Yata said:

@The One Who Connects already provided the reference....The Deflection isn't relate to the different speed-momentum, A Sniper simply can't guest how is bullet would be affected

Thanks, both of you, I stand corrected and educated.  I hadn't fully understood that until now, but the bubble essentially being an invisible, but physical, barrier of sorts, which doesn't completely stop anything but does deflect it (not at a truly random angle, probably, but one which can't be predicted since the bubble can't be seen), makes a lot more sense.

jW

[Djarskublar he/him]

8 hours ago, Jondesu said:

Thanks, both of you, I stand corrected and educated.  I hadn't fully understood that until now, but the bubble essentially being an invisible, but physical, barrier of sorts, which doesn't completely stop anything but does deflect it (not at a truly random angle, probably, but one which can't be predicted since the bubble can't be seen), makes a lot more sense.

jW

My two cents... The way you just described it sounds more like refraction. it isn't refracting the trajectory. You could shoot the exact same spot and have it go deflect different ways. I'll see if I can find it, but there is the WoB about watching for what happens when something hits the edge of a speed bubble. This is guessed (though not confirmed) to be related to FTL, so I doubt it is simple refraction.

Back on the spear topic, it would be the same as when you are inside a train that passes through a bubble. The spear would be 'part of you,' so it would function in the same manner as people inside the train. It would still be 'in the bubble,' even though several feet of it are sticking out of the bubble and into someone's face. This would be pretty OP. You could just stab people that are outside the bubble faster than they could defend against it.

[Oversleep]

53 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

You could shoot the exact same spot and have it go deflect different ways.

Do we actually know this? I mean... has anyone on Scadrial actually conducted experiments on what happens when you shoot the exact same spot with the exactly same force with the exactly same angle and so on?

IIRC Wayne commented in BoM about 'probable' deflections. In the grave with Marasi, I think. So it would mean it's not exactly random.

[Djarskublar he/him]

I agree it's not random, but it is more than just refraction on entering a sphere. The bullet isn't treated like a light particle entering a prism, though it is similar. I could maybe accept that there are small 'ripples' in the bubble so it is like a prism that is shifting slightly. I think it more likely that it is semirandom, like a computer's rng is 'random.'

[Spoolofwhool]

42 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Do we actually know this? I mean... has anyone on Scadrial actually conducted experiments on what happens when you shoot the exact same spot with the exactly same force with the exactly same angle and so on?

IIRC Wayne commented in BoM about 'probable' deflections. In the grave with Marasi, I think. So it would mean it's not exactly random.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone had tested it at some point. After all, I'm sure there were some Pulser Mistings out there who were willing to make a bit of money with their allomancy while progressing science. The question is how fiable the test would be, since a lot of factors would influence the trajectory of the bullet, including the fact that the gun's recoil would affect its alignment. I'm sure you could get accurate results if you used enough precision though.

[Savanorn he/him]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I wouldn't be surprised if someone had tested it at some point. After all, I'm sure there were some Pulser Mistings out there who were willing to make a bit of money with their allomancy while progressing science. The question is how fiable the test would be, since a lot of factors would influence the trajectory of the bullet, including the fact that the gun's recoil would affect its alignment. I'm sure you could get accurate results if you used enough precision though.

Haha I'd like to see that get through an ethics committee.

[Spoolofwhool]

6 minutes ago, Savanorn said:

Haha I'd like to see that get through an ethics committee.

Rust and Ruin, they're shooting at the bubble's border, not the Pulser. They're scientists, not lunatics. There are are plenty of ways to make sure the Pulser isn't in danger, including shooting out of the bubble.

[ScarletSabre he/him]

16 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Rust and Ruin, they're shooting at the bubble's border, not the Pulser. They're scientists, not lunatics. There are are plenty of ways to make sure the Pulser isn't in danger, including shooting out of the bubble.

Plus when they invent Kevlar they can just put someone in a SWAT suit and have them curl up into a ball to minimise the target if they want to check how bullets going INTO a bubble would be deflected. ^^

[Oversleep]

8 minutes ago, Rawrbert said:

Plus when they invent Kevlar they can just put someone in a SWAT suit and have them curl up into a ball to minimise the target if they want to check how bullets going INTO a bubble would be deflected. ^^

They just need a few inches of steel and it's fine. Just put the Pulser/Slider into a safe.

[ScarletSabre he/him]

3 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

They just need a few inches of steel and it's fine. Just put the Pulser/Slider into a safe.

But then how would they observe the deflection? If it gets deflected downwards and into the floor within the Speedbubble, unless the safe was made of plexiglass nobody inside the bubble would be able to record it