We Will See Gavilar Again?

[SheSmiledAnyway]

So there has been a lot of discussion about future Stormlight books, and the possibility that characters will die before we get their flashback story. I think this might have been the case for Dalinar, before his flashbacks were moved to book 3. This idea also prompted thoughts about how even if a character dies, they might still have a story, fighting with the Heralds to get back the Tranquiline Halls, aka fixing the Rosharian afterlife (this is only speculation and theories). I just came to the interesting conclusions:

• Gavilar is dead, thus in this <broken> afterlife
• We could get a flashback story for him, probably in the latter half of the series
• Also in the latter half, he could be the viewpoint character for the afterlife
• If Dalinar dies, there could be a very sweet reunion scene (whether canon or fanfiction)

 

Edited September 5, 2016 by SheSmiledAnyway

[The One Who Connects he/him]

I'm fairly sure that Brandon has stated who all 10 flashback characters would be, although I could be remembering wrong.

In fairness to this theory, I believe that there are more non-interlude viewpoint characters than just those 10.

[StormyQueen she/her]

I personally don't think we will. As was said before, I think we know all of the flashback characters, but I can't remember exactly.

Also, I don't think it's very likely that we'll get non-flashback chapters of character who have died. It has been stated before that Brandon doesn't want to go too deep into the cosmere knowledge in these books, having it more in the background for the Cosmere aware, and I would definatly count seeing the afterlife as being for the cosmere aware. If we did see it, I think it would be in a separate short story/novella rather than in the main series.

However, I do think that he is going to be a very important character, simply because of the influence he has on other characters and the influence he had on the world and society. So, I think we will seeing him a lot more in other characters flashbacks, rather than his own.

[Argel he/him]

The front five are Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Eshonai, and Szeth.  The back five are Jasnah, Lift, Shalash, Renarin, and Taln.

[Darkness he/him]

I know I've seen that book order before, but I still get all giggly when I think about Shalash and Taln books... although I'm sure Renarin's will be suitably mind-blowing as well.

[Gremorys]

 

19 hours ago, Argel said:

The front five are Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Eshonai, and Szeth.  The back five are Jasnah, Lift, Shalash, Renarin, and Taln.

Is that new information? For some reason I could have sworn Brandon said at least 1 character would have 2 books?

[iohn he/him]

19 hours ago, Argel said:

The front five are Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Eshonai, and Szeth.  The back five are Jasnah, Lift, Shalash, Renarin, and Taln.

Can you site a WoB for this? I had kind of hoped for one or two new characters on the back five that would be not born yet or too young to make it into the front 5.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

58 minutes ago, iohn said:

Can you site a WoB for this? I had kind of hoped for one or two new characters on the back five that would be not born yet or too young to make it into the front 5.

Per the Coppermind:

Quote

Each book will have one major viewpoint character, with the other major characters complementing that character. In The Way of Kings, the main character is Kaladin, with Shallan and Dalinar as the other major viewpoints. The other main characters include Eshonai, Adolin, Jasnah, Navani, Szeth, Taravangian, the herald Taln, and one of the other Heralds of the Almighty. [2] Cite note takes you to this WoB:

Quote

Marc Aplin

Okay, the next question we have I think this one you might have answered before but have we met all the main point-of-view characters yet? Or, if not, what percentage are we talking?

Brandon Sanderson

You have met almost all of them. Let me do a count... Let's see. The main characters in the book are in the series Kaladin, and Dalinar, Adolin, Jasnah, Shallan, and Navani, whom you all met in this book and most of them had viewpoints. Szeth, Taravangian, and Taln. And one of the other Heralds; I'm not going to tell you who that is. But I think you've met...you have, I'm sure, met that person; I know he's in there. And so, I think you've met them all, basically. Taln is the person who shows up in the epilogue.

Source

Problem being, he doesn't mention Eshonai. This WoB is from 2011, so take that as you will.

Edit: So I, and the Coppermind, are using outdated information apparently. From this topic (Wiery's last post on last page)

Quote

[03:19:30]

Questioner: So the first one is Kaladin’s backstory, the second is Shallan’s backstory, who’s next?

Brandon: I actually haven’t been able to decide yet. It’s going to be one of the five for the first five books are Kaladin and Shallan and then Dalinar, Szeth, and Eshonai and I can’t decide which one matches the next book best. And I’m going to have to write it...

Argent: What’s the current list for the back five?

Brandon: Current list for the back five… Jasnah, Lift, Ash, Renarin, and Taln.

He doesn't say they will stay in this order, but it's a start. @Jondesu You ninja'd my edit with the newer source

Edited September 6, 2016 by The One Who Connects
Accuracy

[Jondesu he/him]

20 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Per the Coppermind:

Source

Problem being, he doesn't mention Eshonai. This WoB is from 2011, so take that as you will.

He also doesn't mention Shalash.  He says "he" when referring to the Herald that will be included.  Of course, like you said, this may have changed drastically, and I'd like to see a newer source mentioning the rest.

jW

[iohn he/him]

Wait, who is Ash?

[Jofwu he/him]

1 hour ago, Jondesu said:

He also doesn't mention Shalash.

See his edit. Brandon included her in a February 2015 list of the back five.

2 minutes ago, iohn said:

Wait, who is Ash?

That's Shalash's nickname.

Edited September 6, 2016 by jofwu

[goody153]

15 hours ago, Darkness said:

I know I've seen that book order before, but I still get all giggly when I think about Shalash and Taln books... although I'm sure Renarin's will be suitably mind-blowing as well.

I just learned about this and holy rust. What must Taln's past be like wooo

[Pagerunner he/him]

The 10 main characters have never been set in stone, and Brandon has said way more than 10 names over the years. It's important to have up-to-date WoBs on this topic. It looks (at least to me) that while writing Words of Radiance, Brandon 'promoted' Lift, Eshonai, and Renarin (2015 interview) and 'demoted' Adolin, Navani, and Taravingian (2011 interview). Brandon's also discussed the possibility of giving Kaladin a second book (2010 interview), but that's much older than the current lists. But, it all goes to show that, even if Gavilar hasn't been mentioned as a book candidate, it's still possible for Brandon to change his outline and fit him in somewhere if he's not dead and gone.

But, there's also the possibility that Gavilar has been on the list the whole time... as the man who claims to be Taln. The Stormfather merged with Tanavast's cognitive shadow; if Gavilar merged with Taln's cognitive shadow, then his current body might look like Taln (remember, healing is based on perception, which is why Kaladin's scars aren't healing) with Gavilar's mind buried deep underneath. I think it would require some way to bind Gavilar's cognitive shadow to keep it from going Beyond... I don't think he had a spren bond to do so, and I don't think there was a Shardpool near his location...

But, to stop from going too far down that rabbit trail, I do think it's a great idea that Gavilar might come back. If death is not the end for characters (and Brandon has confirmed that he could still do a flashback book after a character has died), then I think it would be cool to see a Secret History-style adventure for Gavilar, or for him to be a major influence in the second half of the series after we've spent the first half learning about him and his secrets.

[1stBondsmith he/him]

Well documented and thought through @Pagerunner. We have enough information to know he was in with a few different worldhopping groups (Sons of Honor, etc.) and some suspicion of Dalinar's wife, but all in all , I don't think we can get a backstory on Dalinar without a good helping of Gavilar on the side. Too much going on there. I think the "cognitive shadow in Taln's body" might be a bit wide of the mark, but some type of connection or at the very least a tool to use what he learned should be in the short term and long term future plot.

[Jofwu he/him]

Is it possible that the 2011 interview  cited above is being misinterpreted in this thread? (the WoB naming Adolin, Navani, and Taravangian)

The question just asks about main PoV characters, which all three of those are. Just seems like something might be getting lost in translation there.

[Pagerunner he/him]

14 minutes ago, jofwu said:

Is it possible that the 2011 interview  cited above is being misinterpreted in this thread? (the WoB naming Adolin, Navani, and Taravangian)

The question just asks about main PoV characters, which all three of those are. Just seems like something might be getting lost in translation there.

He also referred to Adolin and Navani in a partial list of flashback characters (2011), so I don't think we're twisting the meaning. He even admits, in this link, that he's been toying around with who gets books.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

The 10 main characters have never been set in stone, and Brandon has said way more than 10 names over the years. It's important to have up-to-date WoBs on this topic. It looks (at least to me) that while writing Words of Radiance, Brandon 'promoted' Lift, Eshonai, and Renarin (2015 interview) and 'demoted' Adolin, Navani, and Taravingian (2011 interview). Brandon's also discussed the possibility of giving Kaladin a second book (2010 interview), but that's much older than the current lists. But, it all goes to show that, even if Gavilar hasn't been mentioned as a book candidate, it's still possible for Brandon to change his outline and fit him in somewhere if he's not dead and gone.

I do not know why Brandon said such things in his 2011 interview. Adolin has never been a candidate for a focus book and Renarin has always been a focus character. It was established early on Renarin was the important brother, the interesting one and the one the author wanted to expand on. 

To this day, I do not quite understand the 2011 interview. Other subsequent WoB has made it rather his intentions have always been fixed when it comes to Adolin. I can't say about Navani and Taravangian, I didn't follow their case closely enough.

[Argel he/him]

I think @jofwu is correct -- the 2011 is about PoV characters, which many not necessarily be book focus characters. There's no contradiction if interpreted that way.

I think what he is saying there is that he is not planning on introducing tons of new PoV charterers left and right, unlike, say Malazan Book of the Fallen (which partway through introduces a completely new cast of characters). 

 

[Pagerunner he/him]

2 minutes ago, maxal said:

I do not know why Brandon said such things in his 2011 interview. Adolin has never been a candidate for a focus book and Renarin has always been a focus character. It was established early on Renarin was the important brother, the interesting one and the one the author wanted to expand on. 

To this day, I do not quite understand the 2011 interview. Other subsequent WoB has made it rather his intentions have always been fixed when it comes to Adolin. I can't say about Navani and Taravangian, I didn't follow their case closely enough.

I mean, it's not the only place he's referred to Adolin as a potential flashback character. Can you link to any of those WoBs about Adolin? Or any about Renarin having always been a flashback character? I've been looking through Theoryland, and all I found was one that says Adolin wasn't a viewpoint character in 2002 Way of Kings Prime, and he was given an expanded role in the 2010 publication to get a look into Dalinar's conflicted character. That's all pre-WoK, though; since we don't have any interviews about the series prior to it's publication (duh) or annotations that might be give insight, I don't think we know who Brandon's original ten characters were, since they've changed with each book published.

Similarly, I don't see anything about Renarin as a flashback character prior to 2014. Actually, I don't see anything at all about Renarin prior to 2013, and in fact we didn't even known Renarin had a spren until that point. There's an unsourced edit on the Coppermind that Renarin wrote the Diagram in Way of Kings Prime. It looks like Elements of the original Renarin might have made their way over to Taravingian, and are slowly going back to Renarin. Again, that gets into speculation on who the original ten characters were, which we have no way of knowing. (Aside from asking, of course.)

4 minutes ago, Argel said:

I think @jofwu is correct -- the 2011 is about PoV characters, which many not necessarily be book focus characters. There's no contradiction if interpreted that way.

I think what he is saying there is that he is not planning on introducing tons of new PoV charterers left and right, unlike, say Malazan Book of the Fallen (which partway through introduces a completely new cast of characters). 

 

Even leaving the lists aside, there are multiple times Brandon has said he hadn't nailed down the list of flashback characters, of who gets books. It's possible he's come to his final decision, but it's also possible he hasn't. He rewrote his Mistborn megaseries outline when Wax and Wayne turned out well; he's not afraid to deviate from his plans if chaning them would make for a better story. I think it's obvious that's what he's been doing in Stormlight, as well, changing who his flashback characters are as he gets farther into the series to characters who will make for better books. If it turns out that Gavilar's cognitive shadow would be the best flashback character to show the reader a war in Shadesmar, I don't think Brandon would hesitate to change his outline. However, we do have other characters who could probably fit that role better, like our two Heralds, so I'll agree that I don't see a good reason for Gavilar to become a flashback character. But it definitely would be a cool twist.

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

I mean, it's not the only place he's referred to Adolin as a potential flashback character. Can you link to any of those WoBs about Adolin? Or any about Renarin having always been a flashback character? I've been looking through Theoryland, and all I found was one that says Adolin wasn't a viewpoint character in 2002 Way of Kings Prime, and he was given an expanded role in the 2010 publication to get a look into Dalinar's conflicted character. That's all pre-WoK, though; since we don't have any interviews about the series prior to it's publication (duh) or annotations that might be give insight, I don't think we know who Brandon's original ten characters were, since they've changed with each book published.

Similarly, I don't see anything about Renarin as a flashback character prior to 2014. Actually, I don't see anything at all about Renarin prior to 2013, and in fact we didn't even known Renarin had a spren until that point. There's an unsourced edit on the Coppermind that Renarin wrote the Diagram in Way of Kings Prime. It looks like Elements of the original Renarin might have made their way over to Taravingian, and are slowly going back to Renarin. Again, that gets into speculation on who the original ten characters were, which we have no way of knowing. (Aside from asking, of course.)

You wouldn't find this onto Theoryland. You would need to have been very interested within Adolin's character, tracking down all mention of him, to see catch them as they come. To make a long story short, he did state into a signed book how Adolin died in the first version of SA as Renarin has always been the "important" brother, his choice of words, not mine. He repetitively said on Reddit how he has increased Adolin's role, but also how he didn't feel the character needed focus. He also said how Adolin simply wasn't one of the character he orchestrated the story around.

While I do not know who Brandon's original 10 were, I am 1000% sure Adolin has never been on that list and I am 500% sure Renarin has always been or was added very early on. Both characters appear to have changed since their original outlay, mostly Renarin, as Brandon states Adolin has pretty much always been the same character, just with a different direction. I haven't read WoK Prime, but sources I have state they didn't think former Adolin had much in common with nowadays Adolin, but disconnect between the author's perception of his character and his readership appears to be quite frequent.

I can try to find the specific quotes, but it may take some time.

 

 

[Krandacth]

As a side note to the general direction of this discussion:

I have a theory, posted in the Stormlight Archive board, that we may have already-kinda-maybe-ish seen Gavilar again, in some sense.  It relates to the nature of the Nahel Bond and pseudo-reincarnation.

 

[SheSmiledAnyway]

While him being a main character would be cool, that really wouldn't be necessary, interludes would still be really cool, if just a hint of what is going on on the other side. However I can see how it might be too Cosmere heavy. If he makes the afterlife a bigger point in future books then maybe. I just keep thinking of the prelude to the series and what all that was about where the Heralds went. It seems like there will be Herald viewpoints, so that should be made clearer. And Mistborn was pretty 'Cosmere heavy', wasn't it? We at least saw shards, even if we didn't get complete explanations in the main series. So we could totally see war against Odium without having to know all about him and thus dragging the books through the Cosmere. Lots of really cool ways the viewpoints could go though...Renarin will be fantastic, as will Jasnah...although I hope if we get Taln we get his actual personality for part of the time at least. He must have such a cool story, being abandoned and everything.

[Jondesu he/him]

On 9/4/2016 at 10:37 PM, CalypsoDreaming said:

Also, I don't think it's very likely that we'll get non-flashback chapters of character who have died. It has been stated before that Brandon doesn't want to go too deep into the cosmere knowledge in these books, having it more in the background for the Cosmere aware, and I would definatly count seeing the afterlife as being for the cosmere aware. If we did see it, I think it would be in a separate short story/novella rather than in the main series.

Bear in mind we've seen quite a bit of Shadesmar already, so having the Realms discussed and seen isn't necessarily Cosmere content; it's merely Roshar's Realms.  I think he could include quite a bit of that if he decides, without involving the rest of the Cosmere at all.

jW

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

On 7 september 2016 at 0:20 AM, Pagerunner said:

There's an unsourced edit on the Coppermind that Renarin wrote the Diagram in Way of Kings Prime.

I believe he said this on Twitter. I can try to find it if you wish.

About old Gavilar, we will probably see him in Dalinars flashbacks, and if the afterlife is explored, I could see him being rather major.

I can also buy the Taln theory. 

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

IIRC, book five's prologue/assassination is rumored to be from Gavilar's POV but as for literally seeing him again...i would say no