Chromium Feruchemy?

[soyperson]

I've always loved the idea of being able to influence luck. So I guess that's why I love chromium Feruchemy so much. 

But I can never figure out if it's altering luck (chance, gambling, the roulette wheel's spin, et c.), or fortune (an enemy's gun jamming, runaway bandits tripping over rocks, et c.).

Input?

[Jondesu he/him]

17 hours ago, Landis963 said:

Remember the scene in Half-Blood Prince when Harry drank Felix Felicis?  I suspect that compounding Chromium would produce a similar effect.  (Daniel Radcliffe's slightly stoned performance notwithstanding)

That gave me an idea.  What if Chromium Feruchemy allows you to connect (when tapping) or detach (when storing) Spiritual Connections to your own future events?  Time is mostly irrelevant in the Spiritual Realm, and while the future isn't set in stone, we already know that it can be partially seen and predicted through the Spiritual Realm, via both Atium's ability and the scenes showing how the Shards do just that.  By making or severing those Connections only in the Spiritual Realm, you wouldn't Cognitively understand the results, at least immediately, but it would guide you to the best of the possible futures determined by those Connections.  Sort of like if Atium just guided you to the best move instead of showing you the shadows.

[tobar14 he/him]

Are you describing the difference between luck affecting yourself, and luck affecting others...Internal vs External?

[soyperson]

2 minutes ago, tobar14 said:

Are you describing the difference between luck affecting yourself, and luck affecting others...Internal vs External?

I'm thinking more like luck affecting probability or luck affecting fortune.

Good observation, though!

To quote Khriss, "This demands further study."

Edited August 30, 2016 by bleeder

[tobar14 he/him]

This makes me think. Is there a finite amount of "luck" on Scadrial.

Basically, if you are storing luck, making yourself unlucky, do unlucky things have to happen in order for you to store it? or can you store luck without having anything bad happen?

Then there is the opposite, can you tap luck and nothing lucky will happen.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

This is reminding me of something.

Sazed once described to Vin a religion that believed in a finite amount of bad luck. They celebrated when something bad happened, because it meant they had used up a lot of their bad luck and the future was likely to be good.

Maybe there was something to that religion? Maybe their beliefs were founded on chromium feruchemy?

[soyperson]

41 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

This is reminding me of something.

Sazed once described to Vin a religion that believed in a finite amount of bad luck. They celebrated when something bad happened, because it meant they had used up a lot of their bad luck and the future was likely to be good.

Maybe there was something to that religion? Maybe their beliefs were founded on chromium feruchemy?

Had not noticed this. Excellent!

[SamM he/him]

With this religion it would have had to be founded before mistborn abilities were even introduced, or shortly after, not leaving very much time for sazed to pick it up, or even mistings/full mistborns to show these powers. Especially with these full mistborns starting out in Elendel.

Edited September 6, 2016 by SamM

[The One Who Connects he/him]

2 minutes ago, SamM said:

The thing about the religion is that this religion would have happened before allomantic powers had even been introduced, so I don't quite see how that would make sense.

Thankfully, this is Chromium Feruchemy, which did exist. So there is no problem

Edit: That sounded a bit rude, so I apologize.
Also, could chromium have been a thing back in those days?

Edited September 6, 2016 by The One Who Connects

[soyperson]

 

5 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Thankfully, this is Chromium Feruchemy, which did exist. So there is no problem

Edit: That sounded a bit rude, so I apologize.
Also, could chromium have been a thing back in those days?

I assume so 

Feruchemy is mystical and mysterious and... other adjective beginning with "my-"

[Xander Freud he/him]

I would have to agree with bleeder. The knowledge of feruchemy is ancient and widespread, at least before the ash world began. I would assume that they had knowledge of all 16 metals before the Lord Ruler oppressed all knowledge of it. Then again, I haven't referenced the book. I always have been particularly interested in chromium compounders. Exactly what would all this "luck" do for you?

[soyperson]

22 minutes ago, Xander Freud said:

I would have to agree with bleeder. The knowledge of feruchemy is ancient and widespread, at least before the ash world began. I would assume that they had knowledge of all 16 metals before the Lord Ruler oppressed all knowledge of it. Then again, I haven't referenced the book. I always have been particularly interested in chromium compounders. Exactly what would all this "luck" do for you?

That's my inquiry. 

Does it involve chance, such as the roll of a dice?

Or does it involve fortune, such as an enemy's gun jamming right before they try to shoot you?

Since you can't control it, how would it affect you?

I thought of this the other day:

A concert is coming up that you want to go to, and you happen to be a chromium Ferring. You try storing fortune, so that when concert time comes around, you can win tickets on the radio. But while storing luck, does the concert get cancelled, or do you win the tickets after tapping your fortune? Is it personal luck, or cosmic luck?

[Xander Freud he/him]

Well, I am unable to find any quotes from Brandon on the subject, and my typical method for determining how it works is whatever sounds coolest. In my opinion, having you win the concert tickets (probability change) sounds awesome. So that's that.   Also, the canceled concert would turn into a private showing at your house once you start to tap luck again.

[soyperson]

Just now, Xander Freud said:

Well, I am unable to find any quotes from Brandon on the subject, and my typical method for determining how it works is whatever sounds coolest. In my opinion, having you win the concert tickets (probability change) sounds awesome. So that's that.   Also, the canceled concert would turn into a private showing at your house once you start to tap luck again.

Possibly. Excellent point. 

Maybe we'll find out in The Lost Metal (if it ever comes out...)

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

5 hours ago, bleeder said:

I assume so 

Feruchemy is mystical and mysterious and... other adjective beginning with "my-"

Feruchemy is myriad.

Feruchemy is myopic.

Feruchemy is mycenaean.

And perhaps my favorite, feruchemy is mycorrhizic.

 

 

Anyway, with your concert example... I feel that (assuming you aren't compounding) we are still following the laws of feruchemy which means that at most you are going to break even with that luck of yours. So... Probably if you store and expend equal amounts of luck in the time leading up to the concert, overall your chances of getting to the concert couldn't be any better. In your example, it probably wouldn't be able to cancel the concert and then move it to your house. That's a net gain of luck. I would bet that the luck you stored when the concert got cancelled would only be roughly capable of getting the concert rescheduled as if you hadn't interfered, but not giving you a net gain.

This, however, assumes that during this time your chances of getting to the concert are uniform. In actuality, only a small number of moments in this span of time actually matter with regard to getting you into that concert. So... If you stored luck most of the time and expended it all in the instant where they award the tickets over the radio, maybe it would work.

The point I bring up I guess is that timing is very important I think. You can't use luck feruchemy to solve any immediate problems unless you already have a reserve. This is probably a big limiting factor in luck feruchemy, assuming you can't compound.

Also, another thing to consider... If the luck is indeed cosmic luck... There would be some interesting interactions between multiple chromium users. If one person wanted the concert cancelled and the other one wanted it to not be cancelled, for example (presumably nothing would happen if they expended an equal amount of luck... or would it do something like cancel it to the public but grant the person who wanted the concert some boon like it moving to their house like you earlier said?)... Also this magic would have to divine what exactly you want to happen by chance, and do that... But maybe you don't know what's best for you? This seems a little arbitrary. Actually the more I look at it, the more difficult it seems it would be to implement cosmic luck. It still sounds awesome of coarse. I'm just not sure Sanderson actually intends it to work like that because it poses some logical challenges.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Drake Marshall

[Xander Freud he/him]

9 hours ago, Drake Marshall said:

Feruchemy is myriad.

Feruchemy is myopic.

Feruchemy is mycenaean.

And perhaps my favorite, feruchemy is mycorrhizic.

 

 

Anyway, with your concert example... I feel that (assuming you aren't compounding) we are still following the laws of feruchemy which means that at most you are going to break even with that luck of yours. So... Probably if you store and expend equal amounts of luck in the time leading up to the concert, overall your chances of getting to the concert couldn't be any better. In your example, it probably wouldn't be able to cancel the concert and then move it to your house. That's a net gain of luck. I would bet that the luck you stored when the concert got cancelled would only be roughly capable of getting the concert rescheduled as if you hadn't interfered, but not giving you a net gain.

This, however, assumes that during this time your chances of getting to the concert are uniform. In actuality, only a small number of moments in this span of time actually matter with regard to getting you into that concert. So... If you stored luck most of the time and expended it all in the instant where they award the tickets over the radio, maybe it would work.

The point I bring up I guess is that timing is very important I think. You can't use luck feruchemy to solve any immediate problems unless you already have a reserve. This is probably a big limiting factor in luck feruchemy, assuming you can't compound.

Also, another thing to consider... If the luck is indeed cosmic luck... There would be some interesting interactions between multiple chromium users. If one person wanted the concert cancelled and the other one wanted it to not be cancelled, for example (presumably nothing would happen if they expended an equal amount of luck... or would it do something like cancel it to the public but grant the person who wanted the concert some boon like it moving to their house like you earlier said?)... Also this magic would have to divine what exactly you want to happen by chance, and do that... But maybe you don't know what's best for you? This seems a little arbitrary. Actually the more I look at it, the more difficult it seems it would be to implement cosmic luck. It still sounds awesome of coarse. I'm just not sure Sanderson actually intends it to work like that because it poses some logical challenges.

Agreed, I'm hoping we have a chromium ferring in the next trilogy so we have a bigger reference for what these powers look like. Did Brandon already announce a Nicrosil Ferring as the character? Or am I dreaming that?

[soyperson]

21 minutes ago, Xander Freud said:

Agreed, I'm hoping we have a chromium ferring in the next trilogy so we have a bigger reference for what these powers look like. Did Brandon already announce a Nicrosil Ferring as the character? Or am I dreaming that?

No, Nicrosil Misting. Geekish programmer girl.

Edited September 7, 2016 by bleeder

[Steelheart]

Not sure if this helps, but we have a WoB that Hoid uses Feruchemy to know where to be (thanks Vauric for the links). I would say it's not much of a stretch to say he's using Chromium specifically (he may even be Compounding, assuming he burned his Lerasium bead). Which kind of answers your question: It allows you to know where you could be, and if you go there you'll get lucky (but you can't decide what form that luck will take). When storing, I'd assume you lose that "sixth sense" of when something is right/wrong....

Just speculation (and I know the effects of tapping/storing according to my theory don't match each other like other Feruchemical metals), so feel free to chime in/bash it to pieces  

[soyperson]

4 hours ago, Steelheart said:

Not sure if this helps, but we have a WoB that Hoid uses Feruchemy to know where to be (thanks Vauric for the links). I would say it's not much of a stretch to say he's using Chromium specifically (he may even be Compounding, assuming he burned his Lerasium bead). Which kind of answers your question: It allows you to know where you could be, and if you go there you'll get lucky (but you can't decide what form that luck will take). When storing, I'd assume you lose that "sixth sense" of when something is right/wrong....

Just speculation (and I know the effects of tapping/storing according to my theory don't match each other like other Feruchemical metals), so feel free to chime in/bash it to pieces  

That's a good theory, but to store you'd have to be actively losing something, some quality or trait that you can tap later to have a greater amount of for some time. 

Your theory would just have storing and passive being the same thing. I'm not bashing it to pieces, but it needs a little TLC. Think on this: what drawback could storing your Hoidsense have? 

Keep working on it. 

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, bleeder said:

That's a good theory, but to store you'd have to be actively losing something, some quality or trait that you can tap later to have a greater amount of for some time. 

Your theory would just have storing and passive being the same thing. I'm not bashing it to pieces, but it needs a little TLC. Think on this: what drawback could storing your Hoidsense have? 

Keep working on it. 

He did state what is being stored: a prescience like quality which helps him determine where and when to go. While I don't think this has to do with chromium feruchemy, I think it is a quality he has figured out how to store and so later amplify, so that he can more easily determine where he has gone. I don't think it's luck because the wording surrounding it seems to indicate that he does have knowledge of where and when he is choosing to go. 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

On 9/12/2016 at 4:34 AM, Spoolofwhool said:

He did state what is being stored: a prescience like quality which helps him determine where and when to go. While I don't think this has to do with chromium feruchemy, I think it is a quality he has figured out how to store and so later amplify, so that he can more easily determine where he has gone. I don't think it's luck because the wording surrounding it seems to indicate that he does have knowledge of where and when he is choosing to go. 

Sounds more like intuition/intelligence feruchemy...

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Drake Marshall said:

Sounds more like intuition/intelligence feruchemy...

More than luck, yes. If you're saying that it is more than an actual prescience, I'll have to disagree. I don't think Hoid is aware of what is happening on multiple worlds with enough detail that he could formulate an idea of which world would have a "novel-worthy" even happening next, and when, so that he could get there at the right time. As such, it seems to me that it is more likely that he is actually, in some part, achieving a prescience. 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

37 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

More than luck, yes. If you're saying that it is more than an actual prescience, I'll have to disagree. I don't think Hoid is aware of what is happening on multiple worlds with enough detail that he could formulate an idea of which world would have a "novel-worthy" even happening next, and when, so that he could get there at the right time. As such, it seems to me that it is more likely that he is actually, in some part, achieving a prescience. 

I'm not saying it is more than prescience... Honestly its less than true prescience. Like you say, he doesn't even know what is actually going on, he is just able to intuit that there's something noteworthy happening. Probably not so much noteworthy in general as it is noteworthy specifically to his plans. In words of radiance Hoid actually tells Dalinar he has to go somewhere, but he has no idea why. He expresses the wish that it didn't work like that, but concludes he has to leave.

[Spoolofwhool]

6 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

I'm not saying it is more than prescience... Honestly its less than true prescience. Like you say, he doesn't even know what is actually going on, he is just able to intuit that there's something noteworthy happening. Probably not so much noteworthy in general as it is noteworthy specifically to his plans. In words of radiance Hoid actually tells Dalinar he has to go somewhere, but he has no idea why. He expresses the wish that it didn't work like that, but concludes he has to leave.

You misunderstood when I said "more than prescience". I was carrying over from your suggestion of intuition and intelligence and meant "I don't think it's more intuition and intelligence than actual prescience." I'm not saying it's a complete prescience where he knows what is going to happen, but as you say, he knows, that at a specific location, something relevant to him will happen at some not entirely specific moment in the future, which is prescience. Intuition is a matter of understanding something without necessary reasoning for why it is understood, which isn't happening, in my opinion, which is why it is more prescience than intuition.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Landis963 he/him]

Remember the scene in Half-Blood Prince when Harry drank Felix Felicis?  I suspect that compounding Chromium would produce a similar effect.  (Daniel Radcliffe's slightly stoned performance notwithstanding)

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

44 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

You misunderstood when I said "more than prescience". I was carrying over from your suggestion of intuition and intelligence and meant "I don't think it's more intuition and intelligence than actual prescience." I'm not saying it's a complete prescience where he knows what is going to happen, but as you say, he knows, that at a specific location, something relevant to him will happen at some not entirely specific moment in the future, which is prescience. Intuition is a matter of understanding something without necessary reasoning for why it is understood, which isn't happening, in my opinion, which is why it is more prescience than intuition.

Alright then. Despite some misunderstanding I see we agree on how this works.

25 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

Remember the scene in Half-Blood Prince when Harry drank Felix Felicis?  I suspect that compounding Chromium would produce a similar effect.  (Daniel Radcliffe's slightly stoned performance notwithstanding)

I feel like Sanderson would give more thought into the rules governing luck though. Rowling wrote a good story, but her magic was more... Well, more magical. It wasn't as well defined as the sorts of things Sanderson tends to deal with.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Drake Marshall