Why Mistborn or Full Feruchemists did not have "mixing effects"?

[Oversleep]

I was researching Compounding and Twinborn and Feruchemy. Obviously I came across the information about Twinborn effects and that it's similar to what happened on Roshar with mixing the Surges (it's in Ars Arcanum for SoS and BoM).

But it got me thinking: I get that mixing powers from different systems (one Allomantic and one Feruchemical) produces an effect because of interactions of Investiture... but how does it work on Roshar? After all, they have two powers, but those powers come from the same system! How can they be less subtle than effects of mixing different magics?

And... since two Surges together produce and effect... How come people with ten (I know it's sixteen but they didn't use sixteen) powers from the same system (Mistborn and Full Feruchemists) had not such effects occur? I mean, Khriss goes on how mixing Allomantic and Feruchemical powers does create an effect, but not a single word about it happening earlier. She also says that it made her ver interested and she would not be if it was happening earlier.

EDIT: I think this topic is pretty much exploited, so I voted answers up and down and marked a best one. Don't be upset by your answer being on -1; I voted them down because they're not contributing directly to the question - I'd also vote down some of my posts here if I could.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Oversleep

[Oversleep]

11 hours ago, Yata said:

Yeah it was just an idea of mine. I have to read AoL's Annotations jet....It seems just strange to me that nobody else (as far as I remember) developed this trick

I'm not sure - remember when in BoM Wax fights Coinshots in Set's hangar? He threw one of Ranette's Hackballs to enemy Coinshot on purpose - he caught it and in that moment Wax shot him dead, while saying something like "You shouldn't drop your Allomantic shield even to catch a shiny toy". I guess he what he meant by Allomantic shield is basically steel bubble.

[Yata he/him]

5 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

I'm not sure - remember when in BoM Wax fights Coinshots in Set's hangar? He threw one of Ranette's Hackballs to enemy Coinshot on purpose - he caught it and in that moment Wax shot him dead, while saying something like "You shouldn't drop your Allomantic shield even to catch a shiny toy". I guess he what he meant by Allomantic shield is basically steel bubble.

I have to re-check but your quote is quite a proof aganist my previous statement...thanks

[Oversleep]

@hoidhunter, we have it confirmed that Wax has drawn on the mists (on it was definitely before BoM release). Combined with the earring he was wearing at the time it's probable that his earring gives him small Allomantic pewter charge and while in the mists they are fueling it.

Steelbubble is a result of steel savantism. The only other thing that Wax has unusual is his ridiculously good aim.

But we're derailing the topic and I think there's nothing to be added.

[Argent he/him]

On 9/7/2016 at 0:00 PM, Yata said:

For example I find some likely between his powers and his Steel bubble...And to me it's the main possibility until now for his "perk".

I think we know that the steel bubble is just something he learned how to do because he is a savant. I thought it was his perk, but I think that was disproved.

[Yata he/him]

2 hours ago, Argent said:

I think we know that the steel bubble is just something he learned how to do because he is a savant. I thought it was his perk, but I think that was disproved.

You have right, it was disproved. It's an advanced use of Steel Allomancy through Savantism

[Ceradis]

On 8/30/2016 at 6:48 AM, Voidus said:

I suspect that it's likely because Roshars magics are more loosely grouped than on Scadrial, Brandon has said that depending on how you count it there's either 10 or 30 magic systems on Roshar which implies that each Surge is closer to a Magic System than Surgebinding is as a whole. But then again in the same interview he said you could technically count each Misting as a separate one so still hard to say.

I apologize as I know this is slightly unrelated but do you happen to have a link to this WoB. Would be interested in reading it if you can find it.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Forgive me if this idea is dumb, but I think that the reason we don't see much in the way of combinations is because Mistings exist. The powers are granted separately. On Roshar, they always come in pairs, so they are designed to produce an effect in combination.

Edited October 6, 2016 by The One Who Connects

[Jondesu he/him]

7 hours ago, Yata said:

The Kandra's line doesn't imply that the compound is a secondary power:

Quote

“We need to stay ahead of those who might use this for ill purposes,” VenDell said. “We need to experiment and determine how these Identity-free metalminds would work.”
“Doing so will be dangerous,” Wax said. “Mixing the powers is incredibly dangerous.”
“Says the Twinborn,” MeLaan said.
“I’m safe,” Wax said, glancing at her. “My powers don’t compound—they’re from different metals.”
“They may not compound,” VenDell said, “but they’re still fascinating, Lord Waxillium. Any mixing of Allomancy and Feruchemy has unanticipated effects.”

 

I think too many people are overanalyzing this passage.  VenDell doesn't say there's an "effect".  There are "unanticipated effects" to combining Allomancy and Feruchemy (and probably any other two magic systems or powers).  In Wax's case, the ability to decrease or increase his weight while pushing is particularly advantageous.  Wayne's Gold Feruchemy and Bendalloy Allomancy is a bit more vague, but he's able to avoid more damage, preserving his Gold for healing only when he's unable to avoid injury, and it's possible there are other benefits.

Similarly, on Roshar, the combination of any two Surges gives new possibilities for what can be done, but it's not a singular "effect".  It's simply the natural result of having two powers and gaining a significant extra advantage by using one to boost the other, or using them in conjunction.

jW

[Yata he/him]

16 hours ago, Yata said:

PS: This made me think...are the perks cumulative or not ? For example a Fullborn, have a single Fullborn's perk or a very high number of perks ?

Yeah I just quoted myself, but there is a reason (probably a good one). I bent this quoted part because it misses a very large piece.

IF from the powers mix borns always a single "perk" (not multiple) it is possibles that Mistborn and Full Feruchemists had their perks (one for Mistborn and another for Feruchemists) in the past. But it was something that nobody would notice, after all was part of the standard power set of a Mistborn (Feruchemist).

For example sometime ago I posted a possible theory about how the Misting's Allomancy is different by the Mistborn's one and indeed this may be the Mistborn perk. Of course this may be wrong, but we may maybe find something peculiar about how this Magic Users are different from Misting and Ferring. 

With the Feruchemist is a tricky question, because in the original trilogy the Ferring didn't exist at all and it is more hard to find some relevant difference...We have probably to find some feat performed only by Sazed

PS: Of course a Fullborn or the 16 type of Mistborn-Ferring or the 16 type of Feruchemist-Misting have different perks.

[hoidhunter he/him]

Well...then...what is the effect created by Wax?

[Jondesu he/him]

36 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

We do not know anything about the Twinborn effects apart from the fact they exist.

In fact, we don't know that these effects exist in the way you describe, instead of just the ability to do otherwise impossible things by using the powers together. There's a significant lack of information so far to go on.

jW

[Yata he/him]

18 hours ago, Jondesu said:

In fact, we don't know that these effects exist in the way you describe, instead of just the ability to do otherwise impossible things by using the powers together. There's a significant lack of information so far to go on.

jW

It's the way they are described by Khriss who suggest heavely that they are supernatural effect born from the mixing of those powers. They may or not be related to the source abilities...we don't know.

For example I find some likely between his powers and his Steel bubble...And to me it's the main possibility until now for his "perk".

It's pure speculation but I see it as a "mass with an omni steelpush quite atonomous". So far as I know, no Mistborn did it in the original trilogy and neither other Coinshoot in the old o new books.

[hoidhunter he/him]

Well...ok...we re looking for something different then.  And...we don't have any information to go on.   But...Brandon does tend to do some very clever things with foreshadowing.  So I wouldn't be surprised if there have been hints.  Maybe it's something that has been right there the whole time.  What about Wax's unexplained ability to gain strength from the mists?  THe ability to ignore his injuries and be rejuvenated by the mists in AoL was so strong that several sharders even speculated that Wax's earring might give him access to A pewter.  We have it on good authority now that he cannot burn pewter...but he does seem to get a boost from being in the mists that goes beyond the phycological.  As someone else in this thread pointed out...there may also be some instance of these effects applying to mistborn as well, since they also blend different specific powers.  The two mistborn we get a chance to see close up both describe something similar to this.  Kelsier time and again reiterates that the mists give the mistborn strength.  Maybe the blending of allomantic and feruchemical powers makes this more pronounced in some way.  While other twin born don't experience the same thing (that we know of)...wax, kelsier, and vin are the only characters we've gotten insight into that have access to both steel and iron without the use of hemalurgy.

[Yata he/him]

@hoidhunter I am unsure to fully follow your idea.

Do you suggest that the "perks" born from interation between the metals's usable themself withou considerate if they are Allomancy or Feruchemy ?

To say: Mistborn, Full Feruchemist, Crasher (like Wax) and a "Steel Ferring-Lurcher" would have the same perk (well at least one shared between them) because they have steel power and iron power ?

I am not a big fan of cumulative perks for Mistborn or Feruchemist....But it's just an idea of mine

Edited September 11, 2016 by Yata

[hoidhunter he/him]

Well...pardon me if this has already been addressed...I kind of breezed over some of the posts in the middle...but if believe that mistborn DO produce additional effects as a result of being able to use all of the powers.  It usually isn't pointed out because so many of the people who are allomancers have only one...and the others have all (16...10...whatever) 

a good example is spook.  He is the only character we get a good look at who has only two allomantic powers...and paired allomantic powers at that.  As a tin savant, he has access to incredible amounts of sensory data...but suffers debilitating side effects as a result.  When he gains the power to use pewter...he is able to ignore many of the negative side effects of his heightened senses...essentially boosting the power of his tin even further.  

If something as subtle as this counts...then we can point out several others that appear in a mistborn.  When steel pushing or iron pulling...the allomancers puts actual physical stress on their body.  I would assume that an ordinary coinshot would find themselves at a disadvantage when squaring off against someone who could use both steel and pewter.  Even if the coinshot weighed twice as much as the other...the person with the use of pewter would be able to brace their body against, or hold onto, a much heavier anchor to win a pushing match without breaking their sternum (or whatever happens when a coinshot pushed too hard for their body to handle it).  We also see this with Vins use of duralumin.  She would never be able to survive performing a duralumin enhanced push without also enhancinher body with pewter.  Heck, it could be argued that duralumin itself is another way that the powers mix.  After all...someone who can only burn duralumin can't really do much...it takes the blending of an additional allomantic power WITH duralumin to produce any noticible effect.  

 

If we had a pet mistborn we could maybe experiment a little and try to find some others.  Who knows what would happen if you burned gold, then started soothing your gold shadow.  Or how using tin so monitor someone's pulse could make rioting the right emotions a lot easier.