The Oathpact, what is it really?

[Djarskublar he/him]

AFAIK there is nothing really said about the Oathpact other than that the Heralds are kinda its keepers. If there is some WoB about it that I simply don't know about, sorry. There isn't really much to go on here, so this is mostly baseless speculation, but I had such an interesting piece of inspiration, I couldn't help but share. Don't hurt me Spool ;).

I was thinking about what the Oathpact could even be supposed to do, and why it would do it, and I had a flash of inspiration. I guessed that the Oathpact has something major to do with why Odium and Honor are fighting. That is an excellent guess. I see no reason that the Oathpact wouldn't be related to the fight with Odium. So then the idea was to think what purpose it could hold considering that it appears to bind Odium and Honor in some manner (I won't  say anything about whether Cultivation is involved, there is no real evidence either way). I was thinking about binding Odium, and it hit me: the Oathpact is Honor's version of Ruin's prison. Because there are 'human' agents involved in maintaining it, and since it is less binding than Ruin's prison, Honor didn't have to do as much for it, and he also made it easier to make by making it so there are some victory conditions.

So now I think I need to delineate what all these do. The human agents are obviously the Heralds. There is something seriously funky with them. They get resurrected every time they die in a desolation, and that seems really odd. That I know of, there are very few people in the Cosmere that get revived like that. Returned, one person from a certain metals planet, and the Heralds. That's it. Even more strange, it has happened more than once. They also appear to get revived in the same state they were in mentally/spiritually as before they died. My guess is that the Heralds are the equivalent to the Well. If you do the right thing with the Well's power, Ruin is released. If the Heralds do something, Odium is released from his bond. What that something is, is abandoning the Oathpact. The Heralds were never intended to be able to hold forever, but I guess that Honor decided that humans might be able to do some stuff in the meantime to finally be able to beat Odium.

The next thing is that the prison is less binding than Ruin's. Odium can still do lots of stuff, this prison more just restricts his movements to the Greater Roshar system. He can still influence other places, but he can't go there to make it a more powerful influence. It effectively forced Odium to Invest, which is a great boon to the Cosmere (I think the bane to go with it is obvious here), since not Investing appears to be part of why Odium has done so well so far.

I think there is also one more thing making it so that Honor didn't have to give up as much to be able to build this prison. There is another escape route besides just breaking all the Heralds from the will to keep up the Oathpact. If Odium manages to totally desolate the planet, he wins. The Oathpact is then destroyed and he is free to go.

Because the prison is so loose compared to what Ruin's prison was, it didn't require as much from Honor to build, so he can still act effectively. I have seen a lot of speculation and sorta headcanon on what the Oathpact is, but this explains it pretty well for my taste. Anyone have any concrete proof this isn't the case? I would love to see what you all think. I have to go to work soon, so I can't really provide relevant quotes for what Odiums exact restrictions appear to be.

[What's a Seawolf?]

Certainly sounds plausible.  I'm not sure if anything definitive has even been said in regards to the Oathpact.

It definitely seems to be something that at least bound Odium, and probably Honor, in some way.

The name Oathpact seems to imply some sort of agreement however, and I'm curious as to why Odium would have agreed to something that would lead to him being restricted.  (Unless the Oathpact was between the Heralds and Honor, and it basically tricked/forced Odium to be trapped.)

[Blightsong he/him]

We know that the only reason preservation was able to bind Ruin as he did is because their intents are such perfect opposites. Preservation's prison wasn't really so much a prison, as a mechanism by which he used his power to perfectly counter almost everything Ruin was capable of (this isn't theory, we have a WoB somewhere but I can't find it right now). So while Honor probably did do something to bind Odium, I don't think it is related to what preservation did to bind Ruin.

 

 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Source

Quote

2   Interview: Mar 19th, 2014

WoR Signing Report - darkanimereal1 and luke (Verbatim)

Question

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

Tags

heralds, honor, oathpact,

Quote

5   Interview: Oct 12th, 2015

Shadows of Self-Oak Brook, IL

Question

Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else?

Brandon Sanderson

Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it.

Tags

Odium, oathpact,

Theoryland has a grand 5 questions with the Oathpact tag, and doing a keyword search gives 6 things (4 with the tag, 2 without)

[tobar14 he/him]

47 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

We know that the only reason preservation was able to bind Ruin as he did is because their intents are such perfect opposites. Preservation's prison wasn't really so much a prison, as a mechanism by which he used his power to perfectly counter almost everything Ruin was capable of (this isn't theory, we have a WoB somewhere but I can't find it right now). So while Honor probably did do something to bind Odium, I don't think it is related to what preservation did to bind Ruin.

 

 

Why do people keep saying the Ruin and Preservation are perfect opposites. We have WoB's saying that they are not. Ruin and Cultivation are "perfect" opposites. Preservation is the middle ground between the two.

 

Sorry for derailing the topic of the post, I just keep seeing this pop up.

Edited August 26, 2016 by tobar14

[The One Who Connects he/him]

2 minutes ago, tobar14 said:

Why do people keep saying the Ruin and Preservation are perfect opposites. We have WoB's saying that they are not. Ruin and Cultivation are "perfect" opposites. Preservation is the middle ground between the two.

 

Sorry for derailing the topic of the post, I just keep seeing this pop up.

Blightsong will probably type out a reply before I finish typing this, so I have not seen it at this time.

 

I would like to see the WoB saying that they aren't perfect opposites.
As for Ruin and Cultivation Source

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil.

Most compatible does not sound like perfect opposites

[Spoolofwhool]

10 minutes ago, tobar14 said:

Why do people keep saying the Ruin and Preservation are perfect opposites. We have WoB's saying that they are not. Ruin and Cultivation are "perfect" opposites. Preservation is the middle ground between the two.

 

Sorry for derailing the topic of the post, I just keep seeing this pop up.

WoB that Preservation and Ruin are perfect opposites. Honestly though, this isn't true. The perfect opposite for Preservation would be an End-Neutral change while the perfect opposite for Ruin would be an End-Positive change.

[tobar14 he/him]

7 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Blightsong will probably type out a reply before I finish typing this, so I have not seen it at this time.

 

I would like to see the WoB saying that they aren't perfect opposites.
As for Ruin and Cultivation Source

Most compatible does not sound like perfect opposites

touche, that was the WoB that I was thinking about. I guess I made an assumption, but I can see how there is some wiggle room with the verbage.

I believe there are discussions on this topic in another thread.  As I am typing this out, I can now see both sides of the argument.
Ruin = decay, destruction, taking away
Preservation = everything stays the same, nothing changes
Cultivation = growth, adding stuff...

You could say that Ruin and Cultivation are opposites, because they are on opposite sides of the spectrum that I just layed out.

However, you could also say:

Ruin = Change (negative)
Preservation = No change
Cultivation = Change (positive)

So in that scenario, Ruin and Preservation would be opposite: Change vs No change.

But that would mean that Cultivation and Preservation are opposites as well

 

Edited August 26, 2016 by tobar14

[Yata he/him]

I think Odium was trapped inside a bind (Oathpact) made not for him.

Maybe the Oathpact was originaly made as an oath to the Humans of Great Roshar that H&C will not leave them alone. And the Oathpact as conseguence stops every Ascended one to leave the System... Once Odium was inside Great Roshar He can't leave.

PS: Both Cultivation and Preservation are opposite to Ruin but in different ways. Cultivation and Ruin have similar habit with opposite purpose. Preservation and Ruin have opposite habit with a lot of different purpose (but less than Cultivation-Ruin)

Edited August 26, 2016 by Yata

[Blightsong he/him]

42 minutes ago, tobar14 said:

touche, that was the WoB that I was thinking about. I guess I made an assumption, but I can see how there is some wiggle room with the verbage.

I believe there are discussions on this topic in another thread.  As I am typing this out, I can now see both sides of the argument.
Ruin = decay, destruction, taking away
Preservation = everything stays the same, nothing changes
Cultivation = growth, adding stuff...

You could say that Ruin and Cultivation are opposites, because they are on opposite sides of the spectrum that I just layed out.

However, you could also say:

Ruin = Change (negative)
Preservation = No change
Cultivation = Change (positive)

So in that scenario, Ruin and Preservation would be opposite: Change vs No change.

But that would mean that Cultivation and Preservation are opposites as well

 

Brandon has actually said that Ruin is most compatable with Cultivation...

 

I do kind of agree that cultivation could have been an opposite to preservation.

[Spoolofwhool]

You guys miss my post? In any case, opposite doesn't mean compatible, which I think is the distinction we're going for.

[Argel he/him]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

You guys miss my post?

I saw it and upvoted it! 

 

1 hour ago, Yata said:

Once Odium was inside Great Roshar He can't leave

But why hang out on Braize instead of Roshar then?

And what about being being forced to name a champion? Is that due to the Oathpact (implying Odium was a party to it) or something else (e.g. given the right conditions all shards can be forced to name a champion)?

[Arraenae]

Ruin and Cultivation might make something like Evolution -- the Ruin of some things in order to ensure Cultivated improvement.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

32 minutes ago, Argel said:

But why hang out on Braize instead of Roshar then?

And what about being being forced to name a champion? Is that due to the Oathpact (implying Odium was a party to it) or something else (e.g. given the right conditions all shards can be forced to name a champion)?

I've heard Marsh get called Ruin's Champion a fair amount in the older threads. And by association, Elend would be Vin-Preservation's
Perhaps it is a rule they are all bound by. But that raises the question of why, and how? I can't imagine Adonalsium having to appoint a champion (though as more or less the power of creation, he could probably just make one)

@Arraenae I had said Nature, but they are both "the power of change"

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

34 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I've heard Marsh get called Ruin's Champion a fair amount in the older threads. And by association, Elend would be Vin-Preservation's
Perhaps it is a rule they are all bound by. But that raises the question of why, and how? I can't imagine Adonalsium having to appoint a champion (though as more or less the power of creation, he could probably just make one)

Maybe the Shards just find it easier to use champions because of the restrictions of theIntents? Preservation uses a champion who can destroy things, Endowment can use a champion that takes things, and so on. It gives them more freedom, but it isn't necessary. 

Also, shouldn't this conversation be in Cosmere theories? 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

47 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

Also, shouldn't this conversation be in Cosmere theories? 

Normally I would agree, but the original conversation got derailed, so it is in the right place once it gets back on track

For my part in derailing, I apologize to you @Djarskublr

[Djarskublar he/him]

Ya missed on my name there @The One Who Connects, but I forgive you. On both counts. Not many people can avoid misspelling this internet name, especially considering it is an onomotopeoia I made up...

To get things back on track, does anyone have any suggestions on what the Oathpact could be? I would love to see other people's thoughts on this. I can't know if I'm right, but I really like my theory, or perhaps a modified version to do with how exactly it actually connects Odium in.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Hm... In Mistborn, the purpose of champions was to operate outside the balance of things. Ruin and Preservation virtually paralyzed each other, but they could still use beings closely connected to them like Marsh and Elend as their agents.

I'm not sure if it's the same in Stormlight Archive or not. I feel like there is something more going on here.

Anyway, that all being said, I feel like the heralds were sort of champions of honor. Somehow, the oathpact does seem to have constrained odium to the greater roshar system. I think prison might not be the best word, but there is something going on... Especially since Odium is still constrained to greater Roshar and the heralds abandoned the oathpact centuries ago.

Also, I don't think that the Heralds abandoning the oathpact was immediately responsible for Honor's death. Tanavast's visions asks people to refound the Knights Radiant, and depicts the recreance. So, considering that he is so terrible at seeing the future that he has managed to inspire a religious suspicion of any kind of precognition, I'm guessing that he was around for the recreance and some following events. And the recreance happened a pretty long time after the heralds abandoned humanity I think.

[Djarskublar he/him]

Yeah good points. They coincide fairly well with my OP, but I will note one thing. I don't think the Oathpact was broken at all when most of the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact. It may have allowed him some more influence outside Roshar though. Once all ten abandon it, it will be broken and Odium will be freed. 

I agree that Honor survived past the Recreance.

[Yata he/him]

7 hours ago, Argel said:

But why hang out on Braize instead of Roshar then?

I have two possibilities about this:

- A Shard's Influence is enough to be expanded in the whole system and therefore also the "divile leash" is long enough to make them free move around in the system.

- The Ancient Human on Great Roshar was spread differently as suggest the myth of the Hall of Tranquillity. This mean that H&C's duty isn't originillyabout Roshar but another or both the other planet of Great Roshar

About the Champion, I am very unsure about his link to the Oathpact.

[Spoolofwhool]

On 8/26/2016 at 4:21 PM, Yata said:

I think Odium was trapped inside a bind (Oathpact) made not for him.

Maybe the Oathpact was originaly made as an oath to the Humans of Great Roshar that H&C will not leave them alone. And the Oathpact as conseguence stops every Ascended one to leave the System... Once Odium was inside Great Roshar He can't leave.

I agree with this theory. There are two canonical things which support this theory. First is this WoB which states that the Oathpact was a part in limiting him, but not the direct result of it. What this indicates to me is that the Oathpact's intention was not to restrain Odium, but a side effect of its intention restrained him. Secondly, is this line from the letter to Hoid in WoR:

Quote

Rayse is captive. He cannot leave the system he now inhabits. His destructive potential is, therefore, inhibited. Whether this was Tanavast’s design or not, millennia have passed without Rayse taking the life of another of the sixteen.

I'll be honest, what this means is very open to interpretation. However, what I think it means, is that it is referring to an action that Honor preformed which inadvertently trapped Odium and prevented him from killing other Shards. In combination with the other WoB, I think that it is referring to the Oathpact. 

So like I said, I agree with what Yata is saying. I think that the Oathpact is a promise from Honor to the Rosharans, which swore they would invest in the world and protect them. However, perhaps they worded the oath, as Yata said, to be a bit more vague, that it had the effect to force every shard to follow it and invest in Roshar. So when Odium came to kill Honor, he found himself bound to it. Which probably annoyed him.

Now, this begs the question of where the Heralds come, what place they take in the Oathpact if the Desolations weren't originally a thing. Now we know Jezrien was a king, I'm guessing he was perhaps one of the leading initiators behind the Oathpact. I imagine that before the Oathpact was formed Rosharans, at least the human ones, weren't doing so well. So the Oathpact was made to have Honor and Cultivation help them advance. So the Oathpact was formed between Honor and the selected Heralds, and Honor and Cultivation invested into Roshar. Another result of the Oathpact was that the Heralds were made immortal, and they were given knowledge, so they could teach the people how to advance, and guide them over the years. Some time later though, Odium appeared, and when he did, the Oathpact stole a part of his investiture and bound it into Roshar. As a result, he started the Desolations, spending a bit more of his power into the Unmade, and using the voidspren, and voidbringers. His goal was, and still is, to either undo the Oathpact, and/or reclaim the power stolen from him. To help the Rosharans, Honor made ten Honorblades, which he gave to the Heralds, so they could use Surgebinding to protect the people. 

Now I think the terms of the Oathpact are that Honor and Cultivation, and by accidental extension every shard, would invest in the planet to help its inhabitants. However, in return, the Heralds would have be there for the people, to protect them and to guide them. Failure to do so would mean the ending of the Oathpact. This means that at the Final Desolation, when nine Heralds left, they said the Oathpact would still hold because Talenel would still be around to protect the people, and hold the Oathpact. After the Desolations, I think that the Heralds return to Damnation, or Braize as had been theorized, to make time until the next Desolation. I think this works because Odium expends a large amount of energy to cause a Desolation, and requires time to gather it again. As this WoB states, if the Herald have a time limit on Roshar, This time limit is probably the time it takes for Odium to get his energy back. Wait too long, and he'll have the energy to launch another Desolation immediately, without giving Rosharans the chance to rebuild. As such, the Heralds have to go back slow his progress. I'm not so sure how the whole torture thing comes in.

I do have a slight theory about the torture of Heralds, and how one of them breaking causes them to be returned to Roshar and the next Desolation to start. What I theorize, is that the Heralds on Braize act as a conduit for Honor's power, to strike at Odium. At the same time, Odium strikes back through the conduit at Honor. The torture the Heralds are undergoing is actually the fact that massive amounts of power is flowing through their body. Note however that the power is flowing through their body without really being in it, which is why they aren't slivers. However, when one of the Heralds "breaks from the torture", it's more they are breaking under the strain of the power, and it breaks the whole system. At this point, Honor can no longer act through them and stop Odium's progress, so he recalls them to Roshar to prepare the people while Odium prepares the last of his power to unleash the next Desolation. As to how this relates to this WoB, I think it's because the Heralds no longer appeared as they did to guide Rosharans, and more importantly, the Knight Radiants. Over the centuries afterwards, the KRs grew more corrupt without the periodic guidance of the Heralds, combined with the fact that their strength was no longer really needed. When the Recreance eventually occurred, it created a feedback which weakened Honor, giving Odium the opportunity the chance to shatter him. Nonetheless, remanant power of Honor continued to pass through Talenel to prevent the True Desolation.

Now, how does Odium break the Oathpact and/or reclaim his power. One thing which I realized recently, was that it appeared, based on the prologue of WoK, that all the Heralds were fighting fairly locally. This was indicated by the fact that they were all close enough to pick a rendez-vous after the Desolation was over. What I'm saying next could be totally off-base and it was just a chance they were nearby, but considering the size of Roshar and how the rendez-vous was something they organised in advance, I feel like it happened fairly often. Now this gives me three impressions, either that the Rosharan forces had been so devasted by the Desolation that they were cornered to one region, there was one area the voidbringers concentrated on more, or the Heralds were assigned to protect that place above the rest of the continent. Now the first one makes some sense, though if that were the case then they were basically all killed except for a single region, and I don't see how they could rebuild that well. For the second and third, they make a bit more sense. Perhaps there is a location where Odium's power is centrally invested, and if his forces reach, they can free it so that he can leave. I'm really shaky on this part. Anyhow, the other way that Odium might be able to regain his power is that he kills all the Heralds and wipes Roshar of life. This would mean that the Heralds would've failed to protect the people, and broken the Oathpact. 

 

So... this turned into a huge, hours to write, ramble beyond just the Oathpact, but I feel there are some parts which are reasonable. If there are any parts that people think don't work, feel free to break it down. They're probably are. 

tl;dr: Oathpact trapped Odium by accident, Desolations are his attempt to break free, Heralds have to protect the people in order to preserve the Oathpact. 

On 8/27/2016 at 1:18 AM, Yata said:

I have two possibilities about this:

- A Shard's Influence is enough to be expanded in the whole system and therefore also the "divile leash" is long enough to make them free move around in the system.

- The Ancient Human on Great Roshar was spread differently as suggest the myth of the Hall of Tranquillity. This mean that H&C's duty isn't originillyabout Roshar but another or both the other planet of Great Roshar

About the Champion, I am very unsure about his link to the Oathpact.

Probably investing into a planet traps a shard because if they go too far away, they'll lose access to a significant portion of their power. 

 

On 8/26/2016 at 2:41 PM, Djarskublar said:

Don't hurt me Spool ;).

Don't know why I would do that. This is a well-written theory. My main issue was that you didn't explain your reasoning, which you did here. You have solid evidence as well, which I guess you didn't realize.

 

EDIT: I forget something, but since it relates to my guess as to how the series will end and Odium is defeated, I'm going to spoiler it.

Spoiler

Quote

Vex Odium, convince him that he can lose, and appoint a champion. He will take that chance instead of risking defeat again, as he has suffered so often.

Honor says this to Dalinar in one of his visions. Now, we also have a WoB that the ending to SA has been revealed. So what I think is that there is a clause in the Oathpact which enforces the honor of a champion fight. So at the end, Odium will choose a champion, maybe Eshonai, and his champion and Honor's champion will fight. The winning power will have their power broken and bound into Roshar. The reason I think this relates to the Oathpact is that for something to bind Odium again like that, it would have to be something powerful enough to break him against his will, which we theorize the Oathpact can do.

 

Edited November 2, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

@Spoolofwhool You have some interesting thoughts here.

One thing I would like to note though... You speculated that the heralds were once regular humans who honor elevated to be the heralds. This in particular I'm not so sure about. The physical characteristics of the heralds imply that they weren't regular Roshar inhabitants. They look... Well they look something like a normal human would look to a Roshar variant. They look like what the original Yolen template of human looked like (what inhabitants of Roshar see as something between Shin and Alethi genetics). Now, that being said, I doubt they came from Yolen. Rather, I predict that Honor/Cultivation created the heralds.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Drake Marshall

[Spoolofwhool]

Just now, Drake Marshall said:

@Spoolofwhool You have some interesting thoughts here.

One thing I would like to note though... You speculated that the heralds were once regular humans who honor elevated to be the heralds. This in particular I'm not so sure about. The physical characteristics of the heralds imply that they weren't regular Roshar inhabitants. They look... Well they look something like a normal human would look to a Roshar variant. They look like what the original Yolen template of human looked like. Now, that being said, I doubt they came from Yolen. Rather, I predict that Honor/Cultivation created the heralds.

Thanks. The thing is though, it is stated that the Heralds were more than just Heralds. Jezrien was a king, for instance and Shalash is his daughter. I don't know anything about how Yolen humans look, nor have I noticed any difference between the Heralds' appearances and the current people, at least nothing the PoV notes. Also, considering my theory, and even without it, the Heralds are at least four and half millennia older than modern Rosharans, and if my theory is true, from before Honor and Cultivation invested into Roshar. Therefore, there is a reason they would look like the original template of humans, because they were one of the earliest descendants, or perhaps one of, the original humans who came to Roshar. 

Basically, Heralds don't look like Rosharans because they've been unaffected by the millennia of evolution which made the original Rosharans turn into modern-day Rosharans. And the original Rosharans were a lot closer to the template human.