Ivory's Behavior

[nervousnerd]

Why was Shallan able to see Ivory in Jasnah's hand if he does not wish to be seen?

Can he not appear specifically to whoever he wants like Syl? Is he unable to hide at all like Pattern?

I've guessed that he could hide in plain sight as Jasnah's shadow but don't recall any mentions of it. How else would a little shadow man hide?

 

I couldn't find this question asked but if it has been, I apologize.

[Djarskublar]

If you're a Radiant my understanding is that you can see spren even if they don't want to be seen. This way, it will be easier for Radiants to discover proto-Radiants.

Dunno for certain on all that though.

[The One Who Connects]

7 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

If you're a Radiant my understanding is that you can see spren even if they don't want to be seen. This way, it will be easier for Radiants to discover proto-Radiants.

Dunno for certain on all that though.

Brandon has RAFO'd that (twice i think) It's what's causing all the speculation about "Glys"

[Yata]

41 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

If you're a Radiant my understanding is that you can see spren even if they don't want to be seen. This way, it will be easier for Radiants to discover proto-Radiants.

Dunno for certain on all that though.

Shallan is often with Kal and she never notices Syl.

In the same way Renarin don't actually notice Syl with Kal

[Garglemesh]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was said somewhere (maybe just the Coppermind?) that some spren are more adept at hiding themselves from others. Like Yata said, Shallan never noticed Syl. But then, why didn't Pattern? Is it because Syl never noticed Pattern until the fight, and revealed herself to him? Or has Syl been avoiding Kaladin when he happens to be around Shallan? That seems unlikely, though I'd have to go back and read with that mindset to confirm or not. I'll bet Syl just never noticed him. Not until the fight, where Shallan had him making a distraction and that caught Syl's attention, which probably made her really curious and she got too close and Pattern saw HER. Speculations abound. I... I don't know why everyone doubts Renarin. He freezes and grimaces when forced to touch a Blade, he sees the future. Something different is certainly up. I guess it's because Dalinar had to go and "Oh that's why..." on us, which always makes me nervous because it could be that unreliable narrator trying to lead us down some fake path. Maybe it was just a way of Brandon saying, "Dalinar isn't going to believe what Renarin says just because it's an Oprah KR giveaway". Dunno. I say we take him at his word. Unless he's the greatest actor in Roshar ever and he's playing us like Wit's abandoned flute. That could be a thing I s'pose. 

[Oversleep]

IIRC somebody (I think Wyndle) commented that some spren can hide easily while some have an opposite problem and can't hide - Pattern always visible. That's why Shallan forces him to be still and he pretends to be an ornament on her dress and things like that.

[nervousnerd]

Yeah.  That is what had me wondering. We don't know what type of spren Ivory is but he seems to have something to do with shadows (shadow spren?). If he is like Pattern and always visible, at least he may be able to hide as a shadow because otherwise some strangeness around Jasnah would be mentioned.

Edited August 25, 2016 by nervousnerd

[Eki]

I think Ivory has to concentrate to be invisible, and didn't think he would have to bother at that particular point, since (iirc) he was alone with Jasnah in the cabin.

[Doc12]

If I remember correctly, Jasnah at that point of time thought that Shallan would be An Elsecaller too, and thus would also have bonded a shadowspren(cool term)  Thus probably Ivory was curious too and revealed himself. 

As it was,  they happened upon Shallan just bringing Pattern out,  making it very obvious that they weren't from the same orders. Ivory realised he'd revealed himself too early, and vanished before Shallan could get a good glimpse at him. 

As jasnah said,  Ivory doesn't like to be seen. The case when Shallan saw him was a rare case of him letting his guard down and expecting too early. 

[Darkness]

I remember that bit from Wyndle about certain types of spren being less able to show/hide themselves.

I was also wondering if it might have something to do with how far along the Nahel bond is... Maybe as the spren gain access to the physical realm, they become less able to hide? Shallan literally drew Pattern into physical existence, which could contribute to his inability to go invisible. Renarin is likely fairly fresh Radiant, evidenced by just recently not needing glasses, so Glys hasn't appeared onscreen (though that could be for other reasons). Syl and Kaladin are moderately far along, and we haven't had anyone but Rock notice her when she was hiding; does anyone know if it took her less effort to show herself as their bond progressed? Then Ivory has been with Jasnah for several years, and may not hide well by now, perhaps he can retreat into Shademar when he needs to be less apparent though? Any thoughts about bond strength contributing to visibility out there?

Alternatively (here we go), I could also see the orders and respective ideals being a contributor. Truthspren for example could find it hard to go invisible (too much like straight-up lying, though they would probably like disguising/shrouding themselves)... Ya that's about all I can extend that to without really bending plausibility...

[Ari]

13 hours ago, Doctor12 said:

If I remember correctly, Jasnah at that point of time thought that Shallan would be An Elsecaller too, and thus would also have bonded a shadowspren(cool term)  Thus probably Ivory was curious too and revealed himself. 

As it was,  they happened upon Shallan just bringing Pattern out,  making it very obvious that they weren't from the same orders. Ivory realised he'd revealed himself too early, and vanished before Shallan could get a good glimpse at him. 

As jasnah said,  Ivory doesn't like to be seen. The case when Shallan saw him was a rare case of him letting his guard down and expecting too early. 

It could be that, or it could simply be that Shallan managed to sneak up on them both by accident and Ivory is not the type of Spren that finds it easiest to hide. Your speculation is totally valid, I'm just not so sure we need to go that far to explain why Shallan saw Ivory for a moment.

[snoo]

I'm not 100% sure but I think that in WoR Pattern can be seen by everybody. I think I remember that he has to hide. Also at the end (in the tents) everybody can hear and see him. 

Also note the figures with symbol heads. They are very invisible and only appear in Shallan's drawings.

There must be serious differences between sprens. I guess we'll find out at some point.

 

[nervousnerd]

I definitely think it is more to do with spren type than bond progression that determines visibility. Dalinar has seen multiple true radiants and never really any of their spren. He even mentions the one in Purelake talking to the air (Mind you we still don't know their involvement in shardplate.)

[Yata]

The books seem to point as different spren type--->different ability to be visible or not.

Returning to Ivory, I have a new idea:

Maybe Ivory (and his kind) can be visible and invisible at will but not in a selective way. I mean, when Ivory decide to be visible, everyone may see him. while he want to be invisible, nobody (Jasnah included) may see him. If this is true, Ivory have to become visible to everyone to interact with Jasnah.

[ARARITA]

Isn't Rock supposed to be able to see Spren - Renarin hangs out with Bridge 4 ....

was Rock with Kal when they met Shallan ?

hmmmm

[Argel]

Well, Pattern is always visible, just well camouflaged. Good point about Renarin. Maybe it's an Honor/Cultivation thing?

[nervousnerd]

Good point about Rock. Maybe it is like the bindspren. If  he knows they do not want to be seen he does not mention them.

Yeah, Pattern is hard to spot when he wants to be. Rock was not with them when Shallan stole Kaladin's boots. I am sure he would have showed much interest in the horneater princess but they mentioned his absence.

2 hours ago, Argel said:

Maybe it's an Honor/Cultivation thing?

How do you mean? Rock's power is of Cultivation? It is possible. It might also have to do with the possible shardpools on the peaks (which could mean the same thing, I suppose).

[The One Who Connects]

8 minutes ago, nervousnerd said:

How do you mean? Rock's power is of Cultivation? It is possible. It might also have to do with the possible shardpools on the peaks (which could mean the same thing, I suppose).

I figured Rock could see from bathing in the shardpool, but i think the H/C thing he mentions is the ability to not be seen has to do with how much Honor/Cultivation the spren has in them?

[Ari]

11 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I figured Rock could see from bathing in the shardpool, but i think the H/C thing he mentions is the ability to not be seen has to do with how much Honor/Cultivation the spren has in them?

If so, we'd expect Lift's Spren Wyndle to be easily visible to everyone, given that it's a "Cultivationspren" in the same way that Syl is an Honourspren. Instead, Pattern is easily visible and nobody really notices either Wyndle or Syl.

Definitely a good point that Something Might Be Wrong that Rock hangs out with Bridge 4 and didn't notice about Renarin.

[Argel]

9 hours ago, Ari said:

Definitely a good point that Something Might Be Wrong that Rock hangs out with Bridge 4 and didn't notice about Renarin.

More so given that Brandon keeps RAFOing what Renarin's spren looks like. 

[Ari]

9 hours ago, Argel said:

More so given that Brandon keeps RAFOing what Renarin's spren looks like. 

Brandon has RAFOed things before for various reasons. That tells us either it's important or he thinks it serves as a decent misdirection so that we don't go getting too hung up about something being important every time it gets RAFOed. It's important that other evidence like this gets collected to back up why you're reading something into his RAFO.

[The One Who Connects]

11 hours ago, Ari said:

Brandon has RAFOed things before for various reasons. That tells us either it's important or he thinks it serves as a decent misdirection so that we don't go getting too hung up about something being important every time it gets RAFOed. It's important that other evidence like this gets collected to back up why you're reading something into his RAFO.

Sometimes he just RAFO's stuff because he hasn't decided if it is going to be important yet.
Contrary to popular belief, he hasn't planned every plot point yet

Edited August 29, 2016 by The One Who Connects
punctuation

[Ari]

That's also a fair point, and is demonstrated pretty well by him changing his mind about RAFOing some questions even though no books relevant to the subject have been released in the meantime. (eg. when we found out Autonomy's Intent)

[Oversleep]

5 hours ago, Ari said:

That's also a fair point, and is demonstrated pretty well by him changing his mind about RAFOing some questions even though no books relevant to the subject have been released in the meantime. (eg. when we found out Autonomy's Intent)

I think he just lets information out after some time - no fun in giving everything away immediately and he doesn't want to RAFO things forever. Perhaps the upcoming release of White Sand made him change his mind.