Kaladin and Shallan

[maxal]

19 hours ago, SLNC said:

Yes, Sadeas was an cremhole, yes, Sadeas threatened his family, yes, Sadeas even acted on it. Still he should have not lost his temper. Whether or not, it is unlawful by Alethi law (I can only go by German law, where I live, sorry ) or not (didn't know the WoB existed.) the Kholin reputation will be heavily damaged and Dalinars job of creating unity will be harder than ever, when the other Highprinces think, that the Kholins will just eliminate any resistance they might encounter. Because that's how politically minded persons think, eventhough we know it isn't true, but they will think that Adolin had evil intentions and their distrust will grow.

I was trying to convey, that Adolin is not evil. As I think, he was morally right, even though entirely dishonorable (yes, we know not quite entirely, but the important thing is what the other Alethi princes will think.) and potentially unlawful, but that does not make him evil. Sadly, apparently, my point didn't come across.

Ah well I wasn't replying solely to you, but to all who might read. Even when I quote someone, I always take for granted others might read it. I also try never to target anyone in specific: all opinions are being shared by many others, even those I disagree with. 

The Adolin is evil thought does have traction, less here than on Reddit, but it remains a popular thought and, based on a few comments, I felt it was relevant to elaborate on it.

I agree Adolin should not have lost his temper, but I understand he did. Adolin doesn't deal with difficult situations, especially those where he feels powerless. Each time Adolin feels he is losing control of the situation, he loses control of himself. This really is something he'll have to work on, but I know from personal experience how hard this might be. 

I do agree Adolin's actions will harm the Kholin's reputation, it will damage Dalinar's claim at being above the pettiness of the other Highprinces, it will give the leverage enemies of the house needed to rally their allies against the Kholin. We should also keep in mind everyone either hates and/or is jealous of Adolin: the prodigy kid who won himself a Blade at 16 and after spending 6 years being laughed at, dismissed for a lucky shooting star, managed to win an unbelievable amount of Shards in a very short time. The Ruthars (Relis is not the only son, just the eldest and since he is several years, if not a whole decade, older than Adolin, those brothers are most likely grown men), Acrobacar, Salinor, Jakamav and surely many others (Adolin has no friends) are just waiting for an occasion to knock him down from a peg or two. Thus, it seems improbable nobody will not take this as an excuse to extract revenge against Adolin.

Whether it is lawful and/or honorable or not may not matter at all as so many people are just looking for an excuse to shove Adolin down a cliff and thus harm Dalinar, they might just take this on.

What I disagree with is Adolin was being malicious and/or had any evil intentions.

19 hours ago, SLNC said:

Ah, but in Roshar it bears big significance. Never heard of a lighteyes and darkeyes getting close, except for Sebarial and Palona, but I can't get what their relationship entails to be quite honest. Can't shake the feeling there is more to it than a simple master-mistress relationship.

This is true, but Kaladin turns lighteyed when he breathes in stormlight: it might become permanent, eventually, we do not know yet. He and Shallan also are of same status which is now above Adolin: I say their eye color is unlikely to matter now.

19 hours ago, SLNC said:

True, you didn't claim that, but many others do.

I do think, that she likes Kaladin, because unlike many others, she understands him. Shallan might seem self-centered sometimes, but is actually a very empathetic woman. At least thats what I think of her. Of couse, empathy is just empathy and does not have to end in attraction, but you can't deny that there is a possibility.

With the rest of your arguments, I agree. I was just trying to make a point that Adolin/Shallan is not yet final, which I got the impression, some on here are convinced of. Actually only my first paragraph was adressed to you, but I thank you for your reply nonetheless. I like this discussion and our stances are surprisingly close.

Except regarding your last paragraph: That's where I have to disagree. So far, the Adolin/Shallan romance arc has been nothing exceptional, actually it's basic Sanderson stuff (*cough* arranged marriages *cough*. Just kidding, Brandon, I still love your work.), except that it goes against a common trope in Fantasy, though I'd argue, that the common trope in Fantasy actually is the uncommon trope on Roshar. Though I wouldn't go as far and say I feel like either Kaladin/Shallan or Adolin/Shallan would be better for the main narrative, because Sanderson surprised me so much in the past, that I kind of mistrust my judgement in this regard.

My thoughts are Kaladin and Shallan did not have enough interactions to truly evaluate how they feel about each other. Shallan might feel a kinship towards Kaladin now she understands him better, but I wouldn't say she likes him. She can't like him, she never spent time with him except down in the chasm where they tried to save their life.

Adolin and Shallan certainly aren't final, I do agree and they certainly might not be the end ship, though I sincerely hope they will be. I do think, whether they are the end ship or not, they will break up early in book 3 because I feel this needs to happen.

I wrote a lengthy post a few pages ago about Brandon and arranged marriage, how I didn't feel they actually were arranged marriage which might be why I don't get the whole problem with them. My thoughts also are pairing Kaladin and Shallan together would focus the story too heavily onto both of their characters. I do think Kaladin's story currently is too big compared to other characters arcs, I do think the story would benefit from having more strong protagonists, it would benefit in having Adolin step up into a stronger character, but turning Kaladin and Shallan into the major romance arc would undermine it all. Pairing two important viewpoint characters usually isn't a good idea in any work of fantasy, the result often turns out being too centered on them and it duplicates the arcs: each time the relationship has issues, you read it from one, then you read t from the other: it gets redundant quickly.

There is also the fact I don't like Kaladin being paired with anyone, not at this point in time in the story. I don't feel it works for his character to have a love interest at the moment while getting to the end of his relationship issues is a major story arc for Adolin.

15 hours ago, dgenio8 said:

But I digress. I wanted to disagree with your idea that Dalinar did not love Adolin. I think that is the oposite of what we here shown. In my prespective, not only Dalinar loves Adolin but he also respect him! He raised Adolin to be a great soldier, a fantastic comander and a worthy sucessor Highprince. Their talk when Dalinar decide to resign shows it. Yes, he does proteck Elhokar and Renarin more, but that does not equate to more love. I actually think that, if given the chance, Dalinar would sacrifice himself to save Adolin. And yes, I remember the duel scene, but I think that was different. In that situation, both would be killed...

Typically, this is the one argument I struggle the most to pass around. I would however emphasis over the fact I did use the word "unsure", because this remains my personal conclusions based on my personal observations which do seem to be confirmed by this WoB:

Quote

 

QUESTION

Why is Dalinar very restrictive of Adolin but not with Renarin and Elhokar?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It is a little bit - I would say a slight flaw on Dalinar's part, he's too hard on Adolin. But that's because Adolin is in line for the throne, and he's the eldest son, and the heir, and all of that stuff. I would say that Dalinar's a little too lax in some ways, a little too strict in others.

 

My thoughts aren't Dalinar does not love Adolin: he does love him, but my this love is entangled so closely within expectations, rules and demands if hardly shines through. Also he sees his son as a project, as something to built more than a human being, a tool to be used with no care as to whether or not too much work isn't damaging it. In the end, I do feel Dalinar would sacrifice Adolin. He sat back down during the 4 on 1 duel, he's the one who suggested Adolin underwent through the dueling spree... All this... It is the complete reverse of how it should have happened. Adolin should have been the one to suggest the dueling spree, he should have argued with his father about his capacities to do it, while Dalinar should have worry it might be too dangerous. It isn't normal General Kahl is the one to express worry over Adolin here.... These scenes do make me wonder how much Dalinar truly loves Adolin: there is love, but is this love strong enough to prevent Dalinar from wasting Adolin's life? If Adolin gets badly injured, will Dalinar actually try to help him or will he think he ought to prevail because the Blackthorn never cared much for injuries and always downplayed them?

What other readers, including yourself, read as respect, I read as an authoritative father who won't listen to his son's inputs, who won't bother to explain himself to him and who expects Adolin will do as he us told. And what is he told? To walk onto this very thin line, the only one Dalinar approves of. Or else... Or else what? Or else Adolin might say goodbye to his family as Dalinar made it very clear if Adolin so much as disobey him, he is to leave the family, he is to be unworthy of wearing their colors. If you group this with Adolin growing feeling left out because Renarin got all of the attention (yes this has been confirmed by the author), then you get a very different portrayal of his behavior. 

So while it is true the end result is Adolin has grown up in a capable soldier, a leading officer and potentially a very decent Highprince in the becoming, this growth came at a price. In shorts, Adolin was never allowed to make mistakes, he was never allowed to chose his own path, he was never allowed to come to his own conclusions: everything he is was forced on him by his father. If it was just born out of deep respect as many have suggested, then Adolin wouldn't have collapse in the end. Dalinar also wouldn't put so much pressure on Adolin and he would listen to his son.... Did it even occur to you as strange Dalinar would listen to Kaladin's advice more readily than his own son? Am I the only one who feels how Dalinar behaves with Kaladin is how he should behave with Adolin? And how is he behaving? He is allowing Kaladin the chance to make mistakes, to correct them and to learn from them. He is listening to his inputs, he values them and, in return, he shares his own thoughts. He is giving Kaladin reasonable leniency while being able to reinforce his authority when needed. This is the perfect behavior of a father towards a son who also happens to be a soldier he respects. With Adolin, it isn't respect: Dalinar doesn't trust Adolin can behave adequately unless he enforces very strict rules on him. I really do not read it as respect. To earn Dalinar's respect, you have to pull out the impossible, you have to save the army with one single untrained bridge crew, you have to shoot a man from an impossible distance and if you are Adolin, then you probably have to wrestle a chamsfiend with both your hands tied to your back to earn it.

Also, I think Adolin likely wouldn't have relationship issues if his relationship with his father wasn't tainted by a strong desire to please a father he idolize. I find intrinsically fascinating the one aspect of his life where Adolin is told he can actually make up his mind for himself is the one place where he... can't. In other words, Dalinar isn't there to tell him how to behave and Adolin only behaves as Dalinar wants him to behave because that's the only way he feels he is worthy of fatherly attention.

The reason I mentioned Elhokar/Renarin is because with them too Dalinar allows leniency. It is understandable he would be more protective of those he feels can't defend themselves (though this shouldn't be true for Elhokar), but it is heart-breaking he is giving them so freely what Adolin wants above all. Love. Attention. And, perhaps more importantly, the chance to make mistakes without facing fatherly wrath, the opportunity to screw up and yet no see this love diminishing. That's what he is giving them, a lot of leniency while Adolin has been denied one "free evening" for the past 6 years. After all he has done for his family, Dalinar still won't allow him one evening where he could dress as he wants and drink reasonably.

So this was, in shorst (but not so short) why I do feel the Dalinar/Adolin relationship is not all respect and love which isn't to say there is no love, there is, but I do wonder how much of it is truly there.

11 hours ago, SLNC said:

She's gonna do it on a whim. Just speculation. She doesn't care about proof and doesn't need it, if she applies pressure until she gets a confession from Adolin. Actually she can put pressure on everyone close to Adolin and he'd crack down. It's just how Adolin is. Poor bloke tbh.

Yeah well Ialai was aware Sadeas's plans were to target Adolin to hurt Dalinar, so might just keep on doing that regardless of Torol's death. As for Adolin, yeah, he'll break down pretty quickly: you can threaten him, you can beat him up, you do anything you want with him and he'll withstand, but threatened his family and the poor kid will lose it.

9 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

I think the thing that will crack Adolin into confessing is when the brunt of the blame or at least the speculation falls on Dalinar. Many will believe it was him or by his order that Sadeas was murdered. It will make Dalinars mission of uniting the Highprinces a little harder with his greatest rival suddenly dying and will make the already scant trust a little harder to achieve. I think there will be some moral repercussions in the form of Adolins guilt but i highly doubt the toll will be that great.

I agree there might be those who would think Dalinar ordered the coup.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

This is true, but Kaladin turns lighteyed when he breathes in stormlight: it might become permanent, eventually, we do not know yet. He and Shallan also are of same status which is now above Adolin: I say their eye color is unlikely to matter now.

I don't. The social hierarchy will need time to adapt until Surgebinders are considered higher than lighteyes. Especially, because most people in Alethkar, Jah Keved and Kharbranth are devout Vorinists, who see the Radiants as something of evil, after their (apparent) betrayal on the Day of Recreance. I think, that even during the raging Everstorm many won't trust the Radiants. They might even become social outcasts. Never underestimate the power of religion on the common folk.

3 hours ago, maxal said:

My thoughts are Kaladin and Shallan did not have enough interactions to truly evaluate how they feel about each other. Shallan might feel a kinship towards Kaladin now she understands him better, but I wouldn't say she likes him. She can't like him, she never spent time with him except down in the chasm where they tried to save their life.

Adolin and Shallan certainly aren't final, I do agree and they certainly might not be the end ship, though I sincerely hope they will be. I do think, whether they are the end ship or not, they will break up early in book 3 because I feel this needs to happen.

I wrote a lengthy post a few pages ago about Brandon and arranged marriage, how I didn't feel they actually were arranged marriage which might be why I don't get the whole problem with them. My thoughts also are pairing Kaladin and Shallan together would focus the story too heavily onto both of their characters. I do think Kaladin's story currently is too big compared to other characters arcs, I do think the story would benefit from having more strong protagonists, it would benefit in having Adolin step up into a stronger character, but turning Kaladin and Shallan into the major romance arc would undermine it all. Pairing two important viewpoint characters usually isn't a good idea in any work of fantasy, the result often turns out being too centered on them and it duplicates the arcs: each time the relationship has issues, you read it from one, then you read t from the other: it gets redundant quickly.

There is also the fact I don't like Kaladin being paired with anyone, not at this point in time in the story. I don't feel it works for his character to have a love interest at the moment while getting to the end of his relationship issues is a major story arc for Adolin.

I disagree. Humans figure out sympathy pretty fast. I don't need to spend much time with someone to figure out, if I like them or not. Quite the opposite, I need to figure out if I like someone pretty quickly to decide if I want to spend more time with them. Plus, I don't think she'd even give him a thought, if she didn't feel some affection (not necessarily in a romantic way) for him. I certainly wouldn't, but maybe I'm just cold. Interpersonal bonds form quickly and this chasm thing certainly was a bonding experience. For both of them.

Hm, no. I don't see them breaking up fast in Oathbringer. I do think they'll drift apart though, due to Shallan's new responsibilities and Adolin... really not being a part of it. I don't think she'll confide with him on Radiant business. Just as Dalinar won't. Instead, she'll spend more time with Kaladin, after he comes back from Hearthstone (and, maybe, from Kholinar and even more maybe with Jasnah in tow, since she seems to be wandering around and Dalinar said to keep an eye out for the other Knights. I'm certain Syl would be able to identify, that Jasnah is bound to Ivory.)

We'll get more strong characters: The other Knights. Sadly, I think that Adolin is designed as an afterthought for Brandon and won't be pushed to a step higher, unless Brandon had a change of mind. I don't think Kaladin's story is too big, compared to another protag like Shallan or Dalinar. I know, that you really like Adolin, but he never was conceived as a protagonist. He somehow became one, but I don't think he's supposed to be one big focus of the overall story. That belongs to the Radiants.

My rebellous side says, that a major romance arc between Kaladin and Shallan can be pulled off, but my reasonable side says, that your argument is a sound one. I'm really torn on this. I just want my main man Kal feel something different than war and suffering for once.

[Fulminato]

3 hours ago, SLNC said:

I don't. The social hierarchy will need time to adapt until Surgebinders are considered higher than lighteyes. Especially, because most people in Alethkar, Jah Keved and Kharbranth are devout Vorinists, who see the Radiants as something of evil, after their (apparent) betrayal on the Day of Recreance. I think, that even during the raging Everstorm many won't trust the Radiants. They might even become social outcasts. Never underestimate the power of religion on the common folk.

kaladin is a sardbearer now. so four dahn at minimum, and shallan too (but the concept of woman shardbearer can be hard to swallow)

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

kaladin is a sardbearer now. so four dahn at minimum, and shallan too (but the concept of woman shardbearer can be hard to swallow)

He's still darkeyes. Being a Surgebinder doesn't make magically make him a lighteyes. My point is... the social hierarchy is a construct of Vorinism. Vorinism paints Radiants as evil, since their believed betrayal. Thus, a darkeyed Radiant will still be considered a darkeyes, even if his eyes are light from Stormlight, when he's packing Investiture. Kaladin probably rose to first nahn (! not dahn) after he bonded with Syl and is now considered a Shardbearer, but will never be considered lighteyes unless his eyes actually change, which is what many darkeyes believe bearing Shards does, but I kind of don't think that. Having dark or light eyes is simply genetics.

[Elena]

5 minutes ago, SLNC said:

He's still darkeyes. Being a Surgebinder doesn't make magically make him a lighteyes. [he] will never be considered lighteyes unless his eyes actually change, which is what many darkeyes believe bearing Shards does, but I kind of don't think that. Having dark or light eyes is simply genetics.

Not on Roshar though. We've seen how their genetics works differently (Adolin's anime hair being a prime exmple) and Moash's eyes did change after he bonded his Blade, to the point that he has to darken them with Graves's eye drops by the end of the book to pass for a darkeye.

[AerionBFII]

36 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

kaladin is a sardbearer now. so four dahn at minimum, and shallan too (but the concept of woman shardbearer can be hard to swallow)

I agree! Men would see this as a blending between Masculine and Feminine arts and manly men wouldn't appreciate that lol.

 

12 minutes ago, SLNC said:

He's still darkeyes. Being a Surgebinder doesn't make magically make him a lighteyes. My point is... the social hierarchy is a construct of Vorinism. Vorinism paints Radiants as evil, since their believed betrayal. Thus, a darkeyed Radiant will still be considered a darkeyes, even if his eyes are light from Stormlight, when he's packing Investiture. Kaladin probably rose to first nahn (! not dahn) after he bonded with Syl and is now considered a Shardbearer, but will never be considered lighteyes unless his eyes actually change, which is what many darkeyes believe bearing Shards does, but I kind of don't think that. Having dark or light eyes is simply genetics.

Actually having a Shardblade does by default make you a Lighteye and magically transform your eyes lighter. I do agree that him being a Surge-Binder is gonna cause Hella problems for him though and your right people will seize on that. The reason he still has dark eyes is all to do with perception. The reason Lopen could grow back his arm but Kal's slave scars are still there. It's how you view yourself and Kal doesn't see himself as a Lighteye.

Edited April 28, 2017 by AerionBFII

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Elena said:

Moash's eyes did change after he bonded his Blade, to the point that he has to darken them with Graves's eye drops by the end of the book to pass for a darkeye.

Huh. You're right. I must have forgotten that, but I remember now. Still I think they were described as having a "light tan", I don't know if that's enough to be considered lighteyes or being somewhere in the equilibrium between. Would be an interesting question for Brandon...

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, AerionBFII said:

I do agree that him being a Surge-Binder is gonna cause Hella problems for him though and your right people will seize on that. The reason he still has dark eyes is all to do with perception. The reason Lopen could grow back his arm but Kal's slave scars are still there. It's how you view yourself and Kal doesn't see himself as a Lighteye.

I am quite certain, that Surgebinders and Shardbearers are considered to be different. With Surgebinders being considered less, because of their connection to the Radiants and not having had to "earn" their Shards.

Edited April 28, 2017 by SLNC

[Elena]

48 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Huh. You're right. I must have forgotten that, but I remember now. Still I think they were described as having a "light tan", I don't know if that's enough to be considered lighteyes or being somewhere in the equilibrium between. Would be an interesting question for Brandon...

They're described as 'tan' during the scene in the Plans where Kaladin and Shallan end up falling in the chasms, and get progressively lighter. At one point Kaladin notices they're the same colour as Amaram's eyes, and pretty much calls him a lighteye to his face to upset him.

42 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I am quite certain, that Surgebinders and Shardbearers are considered to be different. With Surgebinders being considered less, because of their connection to the Radiants and not having had to "earn" their Shards.

I really don't see how you can be certain about something that's mostly speculation. Someone like Renarin or anyone else who gets their Shards from a family member hasn't earned them either, but they're not somehow lesser Shardbearers. Also, Alethi culture seems to be pretty practical when it comes to this kind of stuff - it doesn't matter how you got the huge, six-foot-long mystical killing weapon; all that matters is that you have it, and you're feared accordingly. Yes, we don't know what the popular reactions to the Radiants returning is going to be, but we do know that Dalinar is the most powerful of the Highprinces as things currently stand, and his side can offer immediate protection against the Parshmen-turned-Voidbringers and can boast of having killed the man who's been murdering world leaders by the dozen. Considering all of this, is highly likely Surgebinders will be seen as having a good standing among the Alethi elite, which is all that matters for the purposes of this discussion.

[Fulminato]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

He's still darkeyes. Being a Surgebinder doesn't make magically make him a lighteyes. My point is... the social hierarchy is a construct of Vorinism. Vorinism paints Radiants as evil, since their believed betrayal. Thus, a darkeyed Radiant will still be considered a darkeyes, even if his eyes are light from Stormlight, when he's packing Investiture. Kaladin probably rose to first nahn (! not dahn) after he bonded with Syl and is now considered a Shardbearer, but will never be considered lighteyes unless his eyes actually change, which is what many darkeyes believe bearing Shards does, but I kind of don't think that. Having dark or light eyes is simply genetics.

kaladin had a blade now.

yes, we know the difference between a living and dead blade. but syl is a blade nontheless, and someone have difficult time to negate this fact. 

in the first chapter oathbringer the TOR release

 

if kaladin summon his blade the eye turn pale blue, even whitout hold any stormlight, and the eye lingering in the 'lighteye status' for hours. the third oath bring the blade, peraps the fifthy make the eye permanently glowing-blue

Edited April 28, 2017 by Fulminato

[AerionBFII]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

I am quite certain, that Surgebinders and Shardbearers are considered to be different. With Surgebinders being considered less, because of their connection to the Radiants and not having had to "earn" their Shards.

Surge-Binders and Shardbearers are definitely different in general, they attained their Shards in different ways but I think there is only a few who actually earned their blades recently. They seem to be just passed down. I think the natives of roshar would have trouble  distinguishing the differences between Surge-Binders and Radiants too and there will be a definite stigma/mistrust only inflamed by the ardents. I think the reaction will be mixed but seeing as how Kaladin slew the assassin in white that's got to deserve some credit haha. 

I don't think they'd be considered less especially with the powers they can wield, maybe a combination of fear, awe and mistrust. They're superior in virtually every way. 

Edited April 28, 2017 by AerionBFII

[Farnsworth]

Oathbringer spoilers

Spoiler

Kaladin's eyes turn back to dark when not surgebinding

 

[Fulminato]

3 minutes ago, Figberts said:

Oathbringer spoilers

  Hide contents

Kaladin's eyes turn back to dark when not surgebinding

 

summon his shardblade are not surgebind.

[The One Who Connects]

3 hours ago, Fulminato said:

3 hours ago, Figberts said:

Oathbringer spoilers

  Hide contents

Kaladin's eyes turn back to dark when not surgebinding

  Hide contents

summon his shardblade are not surgebind.

Facts - Holding Stormlight makes eyes light for a while. Being bonded to a Dead Shardblade makes your eyes gradually become lighter.
Speculation based on the above Oathbringer Spoilers

Spoiler

Spoiler - Having a Live Shardblade turns eyes light while it is summoned.
Logical Assumption - The longer his eyes are light from holding Stormlight or having his Blade summoned, the longer they stay light afterwards.
Speculation - The Blade gradually turns eyes light by having it out (a semi-permanent change), while Stormlight is a temporary lightening due to excess/leaking Investiture.

Once he reaches a certain threshold by having his blade summoned enough, his eyes will permanently become light blue like sapphires.

Edited April 28, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[maxal]

17 hours ago, SLNC said:

I don't. The social hierarchy will need time to adapt until Surgebinders are considered higher than lighteyes. Especially, because most people in Alethkar, Jah Keved and Kharbranth are devout Vorinists, who see the Radiants as something of evil, after their (apparent) betrayal on the Day of Recreance. I think, that even during the raging Everstorm many won't trust the Radiants. They might even become social outcasts. Never underestimate the power of religion on the common folk.

I agree with the numerous individuals who responded to this post. Kaladin is now both a Shardbearer and a Radiant: his rank is now high enough for him to court any lady within Alethkar. The fact Vorinism might not react positively to the Radiants returning is likely to be offset by Dalinar being one of them and them being effective at fighting the Desolation. Once the thunderclasts hit and the only individual capable of stopping them turns out being Kaladin, I bet the majority of people won't care if he courts Shallan. Worst, I think it highly likely only Radiants can court Radiants.

I personally do not see it as an issue for a future Kaladin/Shallan story arc nor do I think, if Brandon goes with it, it will revolve around two individuals from two different classes being in love.

It might you (well I am assuming this based on your response, apologies if I am wrong), and several others, would prefer if Kaladin remained the underdog, but I don't think he is anymore. By fighting Szeth and disclosing his status, he now is a top-dog. His story arc is likely to follow a different path from now on or so I think/hope.

17 hours ago, SLNC said:

I disagree. Humans figure out sympathy pretty fast. I don't need to spend much time with someone to figure out, if I like them or not. Quite the opposite, I need to figure out if I like someone pretty quickly to decide if I want to spend more time with them. Plus, I don't think she'd even give him a thought, if she didn't feel some affection (not necessarily in a romantic way) for him. I certainly wouldn't, but maybe I'm just cold. Interpersonal bonds form quickly and this chasm thing certainly was a bonding experience. For both of them.

Sympathy isn't the same as liking nor loving: you can feel sympathy for someone you do not love, even for someone you dislike. Now, Shallan obviously does not dislike Kaladin, she might be curious about him, but she isn't in love with him. Based on recent WoB, I would say she has an interest high enough to seek what else there may be, but nothing indicates they will be the end game. The "chasm bonding moment", as circumstantial as it were, does not imply a future romantic arc. It can pan into various story arcs, not all of them being romantic and my personal stance is either one of those is preferable to a romance.
 

17 hours ago, SLNC said:

Hm, no. I don't see them breaking up fast in Oathbringer. I do think they'll drift apart though, due to Shallan's new responsibilities and Adolin... really not being a part of it. I don't think she'll confide with him on Radiant business. Just as Dalinar won't. Instead, she'll spend more time with Kaladin, after he comes back from Hearthstone (and, maybe, from Kholinar and even more maybe with Jasnah in tow, since she seems to be wandering around and Dalinar said to keep an eye out for the other Knights. I'm certain Syl would be able to identify, that Jasnah is bound to Ivory.)

We'll get more strong characters: The other Knights. Sadly, I think that Adolin is designed as an afterthought for Brandon and won't be pushed to a step higher, unless Brandon had a change of mind. I don't think Kaladin's story is too big, compared to another protag like Shallan or Dalinar. I know, that you really like Adolin, but he never was conceived as a protagonist. He somehow became one, but I don't think he's supposed to be one big focus of the overall story. That belongs to the Radiants.

My rebellous side says, that a major romance arc between Kaladin and Shallan can be pulled off, but my reasonable side says, that your argument is a sound one. I'm really torn on this. I just want my main man Kal feel something different than war and suffering for once.

Kaladin's story arc comprised 140K words in WoK and 100K words in WoR. In comparison, Shallan had 60K words in WoK and about 110/120K words in WoR. While I do no recall Dalinar's exact word count, I do know Adolin had 30K words in WoR (and about 22K in WoK) and he had more than Dalinar. Dalinar's overall story arc currently sits at 40-60K words (roughly), not much more than Adolin (they are very close in terms of words count).

Considering the fact Kaladin has nearly twice as many words as any other character I can definitely state there is a case to be made he has too many. It is always best, in epic fantasy, to spread your words more evenly across several characters as opposed to focus just on one (or so I think). Obviously Brandon's chosen narrative structure has caused most of this. The fact he chose to present each character's "stable moment and breakdown" throughout a flashback structure taking the form of a separate novella focusing on one chosen element for each, has lent to this discrepancy. It is thus the ones he refers to as "main protagonists" aren't necessarily the most present characters within the main narrative (Szeth and Eshonai for instance), but the ones he felt he could write a novella sized backstory revolving around a particular story arc.

Kaladin's flashback were orchestrated around Tien's death. Shallan meant to show us how she got a Shardblade and Szeth will feature his exile from Shinovar. I've got this exact words from the author, so this isn't my personal interpretation as to what those stories were about. This is what the author intended them to be about. It also explains why we didn't get the story of how Shallan bonded Pattern: because it didn't fit within the chosen novella Brandon chose to tell us.

Thus, all this to say, not being one of the flashback protagonists hardly matters when it comes to Adolin. He already has a stronger viewpoint and a stronger presence within the story than both Szeth and Eshonai who both reads as sporadic supporting characters more than protagonists. Brandon has also stated Adolin was likely to have an overall bigger story arc than Szeth because Szeth, despite being an important player for a few key story elements yet to come, simply isn't as present within the main narrative.

Which are those other strong characters we will thus read for the remaining of the first arc? Jasnah? Renarin? Lift? No. These characters will remain within their supporting role up until we reach the second half. They aren't going to get large story arcs, not yet anyway or they aren't supposed to. Szeth and Eshonai aren't getting strong story arcs either despite getting flashbacks, well I'll admit we still have to see it, but since they are evolving outside the main narrative, their role is likely to be limited.

Adolin however is an already established character who works very well within the main narrative. He has a different progression than other characters (set within the present time and not the past time) which makes him interesting. He isn't bond by the rules of narrative to become a hero: he is basically a wild card which can be used in various ways, all interesting, very few boring. At this point in time, I do think Adolin is growing on Brandon. He is getting one flashback chapter, not a novella, but the one chapter and where there is one, there might be more, perhaps not in Oathbringer, but perhaps in book 4.

I will also state a lot has changed since Brandon first layed out his plans. Did you know the initial setting wasn't the Shattered Plains? Did you know Brandon didn't plan for the Shallan/Adolin engagement? All characters story arcs were widely different and while it is true Adolin didn't have viewpoints and died early on, this was just the original plan. Plans changed, plans evolved and with them characters evolve. Brandon has stated how he preferred his plans to allow some flexibility because some characters may end up demanding more time or less, because he wants to give them room to grow and Adolin definitely is one he is currently giving out more room than initially intended.

I would thus not state Adolin cannot be with Shallan because Kaladin is a more important character. I would not state Adolin has no purpose in the story because he already has one. Aren't we talking about it? If Adolin wasn't meant to have a purpose, then why bother writing him in the first place? Brandon didn't need to write him in WoR, he didn't to supplement his story arc: he could have left the character face in the background, but he didn't.

I do not know what the endgame will be, I do not know if it will be Adolin, Kaladin or none, but I do think we ought to be careful whenever using the book structure argument. There is no telling which character may grow on Brandon. We have seen what happened to Spook, a minor barely mentioned supporting character who surprisingly grew into a main protagonist and it wasn't planned. Adolin still has a story to tell, it might be he will revive this Blade of his and that would be an incredible story to read, it might be he will never make it to KR and his story, as the normal guy force to evolve among Radiants will also be interesting, more perhaps than the Radiants. I do not recall who said it and where, but a lot is happening around and to Adolin: all interesting, so I say we aren't done with him just yet.

As for Kaladin, do not forget he has depression: he will always be on the negative side, he will always see things in darker shades of color than they truly are. Brandon did state how Kaladin would overplay his past tragedies because he sees them as worst than they truly were (as he thinks he ran many more bridge runs than he really did). In other words, put Kaladin away from the war into a peaceful environment and he still would probably be unhappy. The war, at least, gives him a purpose, a reason not to wallow into self-made self-pity, so I wouldn't say a love interest would necessary brighten his POV.

[Vissy]

That's very well put. I agree. Adolin works very well within the constraints of the main narrative - his utility is way too big to be just discarded. Brandon's got something interesting in store for him, for sure.

[maxal]

3 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

That's very well put. I agree. Adolin works very well within the constraints of the main narrative - his utility is way too big to be just discarded. Brandon's got something interesting in store for him, for sure.

Brandon wrote a little something yesterday, on Reddit, pertaining to book 4 and 5. Someone asked about future book structure because, within book 1 and 2, the flashback characters also had a role into every single parts. The question was about Eshonai and Szeth who we know are important (because the author told us so, not because it is obvious) and yet have very little screen time.

Brandon's answer was the original plan was to do it this way. By this way, I think he meant having Eshonai and Szeth have a presence within all parts as well as their flashback (I dread those books as I don't like reading either, I find their viewpoint boring and their voice not all that interesting to read). He confirmed Dalinar/Kaladin/Shallan will continue to be important. but he said he might cut back on side characters (this might not mean Adolin as most read him as much more than a side character, this might mean Navani, Jasnah and perhaps less interludes, who knows). He did however state this wasn't set in stone as he hasn't written those books yet.

He also said there would be a time gap of about a year in between book 3 and 4, so this lent to believe all characters will end up in a stable position. It does make me fear for Adolin thought as a time gap might imply his character will run away by the end of book 3 as others have suggested. The time gap would avoid spending time writing about his self imposed exile, but it does make me fear for him. Obviously, Brandon said nothing about Adolin and while I always retain a moderate amount of fear for his future, I would say Brandon never dropped a character midway into his progression.

All this to say, independently of the dreaded book structure, Adolin remains a major enough character most readers expect to keep on reading about. In comparison, I doubt many readers expect to read much more about say Navani apart from the occasional viewpoint and if she were to get none, I doubt readers would react much. I thus do not think Brandon will get rid of Adolin any time soon.

[Fulminato]

On 28/4/2017 at 7:27 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Facts - Holding Stormlight makes eyes light for a while. Being bonded to a Dead Shardblade makes your eyes gradually become lighter.
Speculation based on the above Oathbringer Spoilers

  Hide contents

Spoiler - Having a Live Shardblade turns eyes light while it is summoned.
Logical Assumption - The longer his eyes are light from holding Stormlight or having his Blade summoned, the longer they stay light afterwards.
Speculation - The Blade gradually turns eyes light by having it out (a semi-permanent change), while Stormlight is a temporary lightening due to excess/leaking Investiture.

Once he reaches a certain threshold by having his blade summoned enough, his eyes will permanently become light blue like sapphires.

 

before the third oath hold a bit of stormlight don't turn the color's eye, o the tattooer sure note the change. in the release chapter seem any bit of stormlight make the shift in the color eye.

i think the permanent eye color are tied the last oath,

Edited April 29, 2017 by Fulminato

[kari-no-sugata]

Late reply time...

On 24/04/2017 at 3:11 AM, maxal said:

Well, you seem a better expert than myself  

Well, I spent I while researching this stuff

 

Quote

Based on your analysis, I would say Adolin doesn't exactly fit within either the lawful nor the chaotic good.

Within the prostitute example, Adolin doesn't use pure lawful strategy: he doesn't interject the culprit from a lawful viewpoint, but from a moral standpoint. I think it might also be the man molesting the prostitute wasn't breaking any law, it might be the pure lawful character wouldn't have cause to stop the event. The question should then be, which character type would interject to prevent an action which isn't illegal, but morally wrong? This is the essence of Adolin's character: morality. Do what your heart tells you is right. My understanding is Adolin rescued the prostitute not because the men were unlawful and acting outside the law, but because he felt it was wrong to take advantage of an individual unable to defend herself. He wouldn't accept her advances, even if he is shy and inexperienced, because he would be taking advantage of someone feeling she owed him. He would be in a position of power and this, this is exactly what Adolin seems to be against.

As for rules, Adolin obeys rules because he isn't rebellious enough to ignore them and while he does grow into seeing their use, he will also not shy from breaking them if he feels they become immoral. He doesn't stay in prison because he felt he owed Kaladin, even if he does, but because he felt it was wrong, just plain wrong. To Adolin, it wasn't a debt of honor, it was just morally wrong to imprison Kaladin after such an act of bravery. 

The same could be said about killing Sadeas, it wasn't about law nor honor, but about what is right, about morality. 

It is thus hard to fit him into any group as Adolin's driving force is his own sense of morality. He can go to the extremes, but only when griped with extreme emotions triggered by extreme situations: he is highly vulnerable to them.

I was arguing for Adolin to be in the "neutral good" group which is between "lawful good" and "chaotic good". You seem to be saying the same thing.

 

Quote

I think we should keep in mind Brandon didn't intend for Shallan to be engaged to Adolin, she was supposed to be engaged to "someone else". I would also point out, prior to WoR's release, right after Brandon released the early chapters when the engagement of Shallan to Adolin was announced, the majority of readers felt it wouldn't work. Most people were adamantly convinced Shallan would never be interested into "dumb", "simple-minded" Adolin: all felt she would obviously prefer "smarter" and more "bookish" Renarin. Thus, to make the Shallan/Adolin ship work, to make readers actually believe in it, to make it feel refreshing, Brandon had a lot more work to do.

Personally, I'm not that concerned that he changed his mind. He's been pretty clear that nothing is canon until it's written into a book and published so the fact that he changed his mind on something doesn't make it "less official" somehow.

At a guess, Brandon tried out some test dialogue and scenes between Shallan and Renarin and found that they didn't work. My impression of Renarin is that his responses would be too soft/weak/plain and they wouldn't bounce off each other.

PS I accidentally posted this reply early. Maybe I'll try to reply to the rest later...

Edited April 30, 2017 by kari-no-sugata

[maxal]

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I was arguing for Adolin to be in the "neutral good" group which is between "lawful good" and "chaotic good". You seem to be saying the same thing.<

As I said, I am not an expect on D&D standard alignment, having never played D&D nor read the books associated to it. I like to qualify myself as an unlikely fantasy reader mostly because I don't feel I adhere to the most typical recurrent stereotypes when it comes to whom read fantasy. It is probably why I root so much to get a wider range of people to read the genre because I do feel it has definite qualities which are being spurned upon by others, dismissed and look down onto. Brandon wrote a very nice essay, a while back, on Reddit on this very subject. I think it was in his last AMA, but I am not sure. It was quite interesting and I shared most of his views in this regards.  

So huh back to D&D alignments, I am not an expert I haven't spend a great deal lot of time thinking about it. I describe Adolin's character as I read him, so whichever type fits this description best is the one I'd put him in. So neutral it seems, but there was something I thought didn't click with neutral... For instance, it is said neutral good character only cares about evil being done to themselves and their organization which isn't true for Adolin: he doesn't care about what befallen himself, but about what happens to other. The prostitute is also one example of him putting himself out there for someone he does not know whom, according to the description of the alignment, he should not care about. I also felt Adolin had too many convictions to be a real neutral good: he does believe in what he follows, he just feels certain limits shouldn't be trespassed. He genuinely believes in Dalinar and while he doesn't always agree with his methods, he wholeheartedly support him and not because he preserves his way of life (Dalinar strives to do the opposite). 

I shorts, Adolin is too committed to be a neutral character. He is too opinionated and he strongly believes in too many things to truly be a neutral, if my understanding is to be trusted.

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Personally, I'm not that concerned that he changed his mind. He's been pretty clear that nothing is canon until it's written into a book and published so the fact that he changed his mind on something doesn't make it "less official" somehow.

At a guess, Brandon tried out some test dialogue and scenes between Shallan and Renarin and found that they didn't work. My impression of Renarin is that his responses would be too soft/weak/plain and they wouldn't bounce off each other.

PS I accidentally posted this reply early. Maybe I'll try to reply to the rest later...

Brandon changing his mind merely means he thoughts the Adolin/Shallan engagement yielded a much better story then the one he originally planned. Maybe it was Renarin, I do not know, but I am convinced a relationship in between those two would have been boring to read. I also think Shallan would be bored with Renarin, the boy who overthinks each one of his answer, often leaving long silences before responding. She wouldn't like that. She prefers banter and while she isn't really getting it with Adolin, at least he is straight-forward enough to actually answer. I also think Renarin is too weak-willed for Shallan: Shallan is the "what can I do" kind of person while Renarin is the "I cannot do anything" one. Shallan focuses on solutions, always using her agency to find out what actions she can do, never wasting time focusing on what she cannot do while Renarin does the exact opposite. He wallows in self-pity, self-loathing over what he cannot do, refusing to use his agency to focus on what he can do, always staying fixed on what he cannot do and complain about how unfair it is. Really, I find these two very ill-fitted for romance and Renarin's mind state is also the one reason I dread reading more of him.

Adolin, just like Shallan, is results oriented, always looking at what he can realistically do to further a cause. He never stops to focus on what he cannot do, as long as he finds himself something he perceives as useful, he'll keep on going. He would however lose it if ever placed in a situation where there is nothing he can do, nothing. Powerlessness would probably be very hard from him to bear. For instance, think of the classical character is locked into a thigh sealed room and water is rising in it. There is nothing said character can do to prevent it, nothing. How does he react? Kaladin, I think would just resign himself, Shallan would never accept there is nothing she can do, Adolin, after using all his options, would just panic, I think.

[kari-no-sugata]

4 hours ago, maxal said:

As I said, I am not an expect on D&D standard alignment, having never played D&D nor read the books associated to it. I like to qualify myself as an unlikely fantasy reader mostly because I don't feel I adhere to the most typical recurrent stereotypes when it comes to whom read fantasy. It is probably why I root so much to get a wider range of people to read the genre because I do feel it has definite qualities which are being spurned upon by others, dismissed and look down onto. Brandon wrote a very nice essay, a while back, on Reddit on this very subject. I think it was in his last AMA, but I am not sure. It was quite interesting and I shared most of his views in this regards.  

So huh back to D&D alignments, I am not an expert I haven't spend a great deal lot of time thinking about it. I describe Adolin's character as I read him, so whichever type fits this description best is the one I'd put him in. So neutral it seems, but there was something I thought didn't click with neutral... For instance, it is said neutral good character only cares about evil being done to themselves and their organization which isn't true for Adolin: he doesn't care about what befallen himself, but about what happens to other. The prostitute is also one example of him putting himself out there for someone he does not know whom, according to the description of the alignment, he should not care about. I also felt Adolin had too many convictions to be a real neutral good: he does believe in what he follows, he just feels certain limits shouldn't be trespassed. He genuinely believes in Dalinar and while he doesn't always agree with his methods, he wholeheartedly support him and not because he preserves his way of life (Dalinar strives to do the opposite). 

I shorts, Adolin is too committed to be a neutral character. He is too opinionated and he strongly believes in too many things to truly be a neutral, if my understanding is to be trusted.

Well, there's only 9 D&D alignments. None of the characters fit perfectly into any of them, including Adolin. So overall I think "neutral good" is the best fit but that doesn't mean I think he never shows actions that fit more into other alignments.

http://easydamus.com/neutralgood.html
 

Quote

 

A neutral good being...

Values his family, but will not heed their requests necessarily.

Will provide for friends, and expects to be repaid in some manner.

Does not seek positions of authority over others.

Fits in with their society.

Supports their nation.

Supports the law when advantageous to do so.

Is not concerned with politics, most likely.

Will keep his word.

Will take risks if the benefits are great.

Will not want to disappoint his family.

Will support their family even if it means personal discomfort.

Will never betray a friend and enjoys having close friends.

Considers the needs of the community in personal life.

Will give his life in defense of his community.

Will take actions to aid others during times of crisis, even if unprofitable to do so.

Believes everyone should be treated fairly and kindly.

Feels guilt when he commits a wrongdoing and will seek to right his wrong.

Uses wealth to help others who are less fortunate.

 

I'd say that Adolin fits most but not all of the above. I fear we've beaten this topic to death though

 

Quote

Brandon changing his mind merely means he thoughts the Adolin/Shallan engagement yielded a much better story then the one he originally planned. Maybe it was Renarin, I do not know, but I am convinced a relationship in between those two would have been boring to read. I also think Shallan would be bored with Renarin, the boy who overthinks each one of his answer, often leaving long silences before responding. She wouldn't like that. She prefers banter and while she isn't really getting it with Adolin, at least he is straight-forward enough to actually answer. I also think Renarin is too weak-willed for Shallan: Shallan is the "what can I do" kind of person while Renarin is the "I cannot do anything" one. Shallan focuses on solutions, always using her agency to find out what actions she can do, never wasting time focusing on what she cannot do while Renarin does the exact opposite. He wallows in self-pity, self-loathing over what he cannot do, refusing to use his agency to focus on what he can do, always staying fixed on what he cannot do and complain about how unfair it is. Really, I find these two very ill-fitted for romance and Renarin's mind state is also the one reason I dread reading more of him.

Adolin, just like Shallan, is results oriented, always looking at what he can realistically do to further a cause. He never stops to focus on what he cannot do, as long as he finds himself something he perceives as useful, he'll keep on going. He would however lose it if ever placed in a situation where there is nothing he can do, nothing. Powerlessness would probably be very hard from him to bear. For instance, think of the classical character is locked into a thigh sealed room and water is rising in it. There is nothing said character can do to prevent it, nothing. How does he react? Kaladin, I think would just resign himself, Shallan would never accept there is nothing she can do, Adolin, after using all his options, would just panic, I think.

If we consider WoR as it is up to the moment when Shallan reaches the Shattered Plains but with one difference, that Shallan had a causal with Renarin instead of Adolin, not much would have to be changed up to that point. But from that point on it's extremely hard to imagine it going the same way. If we consider when Shallan first met Dalinar, he didn't seem terribly keen on the causal. Would he have allowed it to continue if the causal had been Renarin with instead? It seems a lot less likely to me - the cost/benefit analysis is very different and also Dalinar is much more protective of Renarin. Particularly with Shallan being keen to keep herself independent, it's not too hard to imagine that Dalinar stops the causal before Shallan and Renarin even meet.

But what if he did allow it, what then? It's hard to imagine it going well quickly, or at least anything like with Adolin. I'm not quite sure I agree with everything you say above but I overall I agree that there's lots of potential problems. Renarin would likely be very unwilling to go on public dates, for example, and if he did he would probably be very nervous. If Brandon had ever written this I think there would have been some very awkward meetings and it wouldn't have been so much fun for the reader. Renarin seems to be uneasy with strangers in general and I think he would have a lot of trouble opening up, especially with something like romance. I'm not sure that would be enough to make Shallan give up on him though - I'm pretty sure she would be willing to marry someone she doesn't (currently) like for the sake of her family. However, she would probably find it draining chatting with him. Maybe he would be more interested in her chasmfiend theory than Adolin but it's hard to imagine them getting intimate quickly. Shallan did not exactly have a lot of spare time on her hands so she might find it hard to justify spending enough time to make the causal work. Shallan does have experience with more "negative" characters like Renarin, eg her brothers, and would probably be much more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt than others but that's not the same as them working romantically.

I'd say that its not impossible for Shallan and Renarin to get along, given time. I'm not quite sure what makes Renarin tick but I think that in different circumstances that Shallan could have at least gotten friendly with Renarin, eventually. Shallan is good at this sort of thing after all (it's rare for her to get along badly with others, particularly longer term). If we consider Brandon's original plans for WoR, Shallan and Jasnah were supposed to reach the Shattered Plains together - he even said once that the book might start with them arriving (or something like that). Clearly he changed a lot once he got into planning it. I've no idea when he changed Shallan's engagement partner but the whole situation would have been very different if Shallan and Jasnah had arrived safely. Shallan would have been fully supported by Jasnah and obviously she wouldn't be living separately. I'm not sure if Shallan would have had more spare time but if Jasnah had arranged a causal between Shallan and Renarin then surely she would have supported it, including giving Shallan spare time. So if we consider this alternative scenario : Shallan would have had the whole book to get to know Renarin, would have been able to meet him much more casually and frequently, and so on. So it could have worked but I find it hard to picture them being particularly romantic though.

It would be interesting to know what Brandon's primary reason was. If the primary reason was because he tried to write some test scenes with Shallan and Renarin and found it hard going then they're probably not going to start getting along at a personal level for a while in the next book either. Maybe he decided it was just impractical to do within the constraints of WoR with Shallan arriving half-way through and everything else. Or maybe he tried some dialogue between Shallan and Adolin and found they clicked very quickly.

[maxal]

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Well, there's only 9 D&D alignments. None of the characters fit perfectly into any of them, including Adolin. So overall I think "neutral good" is the best fit but that doesn't mean I think he never shows actions that fit more into other alignments.

http://easydamus.com/neutralgood.html
 

I'd say that Adolin fits most but not all of the above. I fear we've beaten this topic to death though

Yeah well none of the character indeed fits within any of the alignment. It is why I am always dubious in tying to pigeon hole them. I do agree we have beaten this horse down to death.

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

If we consider WoR as it is up to the moment when Shallan reaches the Shattered Plains but with one difference, that Shallan had a causal with Renarin instead of Adolin, not much would have to be changed up to that point. But from that point on it's extremely hard to imagine it going the same way. If we consider when Shallan first met Dalinar, he didn't seem terribly keen on the causal. Would he have allowed it to continue if the causal had been Renarin with instead? It seems a lot less likely to me - the cost/benefit analysis is very different and also Dalinar is much more protective of Renarin. Particularly with Shallan being keen to keep herself independent, it's not too hard to imagine that Dalinar stops the causal before Shallan and Renarin even meet.

I think we have to keep in mind why Dalinar agreed to the casual to begin with. He previously was firmly against forcing his sons into any arranged wedding, insisting his sons would be allowed to marry whomever they wish to, free of all pressure. Obviously, he changed his mind for Adolin, promptly agreeing to Jasnah's suggestion. Why did he? My thoughts are he changed his mind after he actually took time to interest himself into Adolin's courtships. What did he notice? He noticed his son was changing partner quickly and, more importantly, women were calling into him three days after arriving into camps. Worst, Adolin was positively responding to those advances. His reasons for accepting the casual are basically the ones he enumerated to Shallan: while he would never force Adolin into anything, he does want to make him appear unavailable to those who would manipulate him into anything. In other words, had he not witness (or taken the time to notice, Dalinar being notoriously not attentive to Adolin outside the scope of his duties as a soldier/heir) his son's misadventures when it comes to courtship, he would likely never agreed to put a stop to them.

Hence, in the case of a hypothetical Renarin/Shallan casual, what would have prompt Dalinar to actually agree? Renarin doesn't have Adolin's track record, he does not even seem to be dating anyone, so why would Dalinar break on his rule of never forcing his sons into any engagement? Potential answers are precisely it: Renarin is not dating, not at all. Since we know, within the first draft of WoK, Adolin did die, it might be the pressure to marry Dalinar's last son would have increased. This might have been what would have prompt Dalinar to accept. Remember when Jasnah announces the casual to Shallan? What was Shallan's first reaction? Adolin? Really? Why not Renarin? Jasnah promptly responds Adolin is the one needing a wife, he is the heir. He will need a partner to face what is to come. However, with Adolin dead, it is entirely plausible Jasnah would have tried for a Renarin/Shallan's engagement and it may be Dalinar would have agreed merely because he would basically be the only way Renarin would ever get married.

Still. Dalinar indeed is much more protective of Renarin than he is of Adolin. He is much more mindful of how Renarin might feel/want than Adolin. It would have been interesting to read what would have prompt Dalinar to even agree.

2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

But what if he did allow it, what then? It's hard to imagine it going well quickly, or at least anything like with Adolin. I'm not quite sure I agree with everything you say above but I overall I agree that there's lots of potential problems. Renarin would likely be very unwilling to go on public dates, for example, and if he did he would probably be very nervous. If Brandon had ever written this I think there would have been some very awkward meetings and it wouldn't have been so much fun for the reader. Renarin seems to be uneasy with strangers in general and I think he would have a lot of trouble opening up, especially with something like romance. I'm not sure that would be enough to make Shallan give up on him though - I'm pretty sure she would be willing to marry someone she doesn't (currently) like for the sake of her family. However, she would probably find it draining chatting with him. Maybe he would be more interested in her chasmfiend theory than Adolin but it's hard to imagine them getting intimate quickly. Shallan did not exactly have a lot of spare time on her hands so she might find it hard to justify spending enough time to make the causal work. Shallan does have experience with more "negative" characters like Renarin, eg her brothers, and would probably be much more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt than others but that's not the same as them working romantically.

Assuming Dalinar agrees, assuming Dalinar allows for Renarin and Shallan to court, what then? I expect Shallan would have needed to take the lead, to set the dates and to make the arrangement as I suspect Renarin would have merely delayed hoping everyone would just forget. Considering what we know of Renarin, he would have likely to babble and/or drag on into lengthy explanations over uninteresting subjects. For instance, within their first date, Shallan asks Adolin about wine card and Adolin merely states he has no idea what is good and what is not, he just chooses at random. This puts Shallan at ease right away because she keeps on feeling she is inadequate to date Adolin because he upbringing wasn't fancy enough. Knowing the prince seems as clueless as her must have truly made her feel more confident about her skills. Now, let's imagine the same scene playing with Renarin, then Renarin would have probably start to ramble on the various wines, going into numerous details (as Adolin did say Renarin would do this if you let him) which would have put Shallan ill-at-east and also wonder what she has gotten herself into. 

I do not know how into Renarin would have been with Shallan's chasmfiend theory as I suspect Renarin only talks of subjects he knows deeply. This might not be one of the them, so it is either he would, once again, talk endlessly about it or he would have nothing to say.

This being said, I am pretty sure she would have given him a decent chance, she would have pulled up with much in order to save her brothers. I suspect, with time, she might have come to appreciate him, but I can't see any romance spark in between them. An agreed partnership seems the best they could have hope for, but love? I doubt so.

2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I'd say that its not impossible for Shallan and Renarin to get along, given time. I'm not quite sure what makes Renarin tick but I think that in different circumstances that Shallan could have at least gotten friendly with Renarin, eventually. Shallan is good at this sort of thing after all (it's rare for her to get along badly with others, particularly longer term). If we consider Brandon's original plans for WoR, Shallan and Jasnah were supposed to reach the Shattered Plains together - he even said once that the book might start with them arriving (or something like that). Clearly he changed a lot once he got into planning it. I've no idea when he changed Shallan's engagement partner but the whole situation would have been very different if Shallan and Jasnah had arrived safely. Shallan would have been fully supported by Jasnah and obviously she wouldn't be living separately. I'm not sure if Shallan would have had more spare time but if Jasnah had arranged a causal between Shallan and Renarin then surely she would have supported it, including giving Shallan spare time. So if we consider this alternative scenario : Shallan would have had the whole book to get to know Renarin, would have been able to meet him much more casually and frequently, and so on. So it could have worked but I find it hard to picture them being particularly romantic though.

Had Brandon kept with his initial planning (and assuming his planning involved a Renarin/Shallan engagement as Adolin would have been dead anyway), then Jasnah would have arrived safely with Shallan. It is thus safe to assume she would have taken the leadership of the courtship, forcing both Shallan and Renarin to date, perhaps even setting the dates and/or acting as a chaperon.

According to Brandon, he changed those plans because he felt Shallan couldn't grow while being around Jasnah. Also, with Adolin being alive and not dead, it changed the scenario for the courtship. It might be he tried a few lines with Renarin, as you suggested, but failed it didn't deliver, tried with Adolin and saw instant chemistry. 

It is hard to picture Shallan being romantic with someone whom she isn't in love with, someone which does not please her. I can't say Renarin/Shallan would have develop the same way as Seris/Wax did, but perhaps it was the intended plans. We might never know.

2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

It would be interesting to know what Brandon's primary reason was. If the primary reason was because he tried to write some test scenes with Shallan and Renarin and found it hard going then they're probably not going to start getting along at a personal level for a while in the next book either. Maybe he decided it was just impractical to do within the constraints of WoR with Shallan arriving half-way through and everything else. Or maybe he tried some dialogue between Shallan and Adolin and found they clicked very quickly.

I would be curious to know whom he intended to engage Shallan to. Was it Renarin or was it someone else entirely?

[YKDG22]

I get the feeling that Adolin is going to die by the end of book 5. Either redeeming himself publicly to the high princes against the Voidbringers or on the run(in exile). I think this is the easy way to allow the Kaladin/Shallan romance, because no love triangle and no Dalinar/Kaladin awkardness or bad blood over the relationship. Adolin seems like a likely good guy character to be killed off. He's significant, but not necessarily important. Sanderson can kill off a good guy that will sting readers(maybe not all) that doesn't really seem to have a large effect to the primary characters of the story. His biggest role was killing Sadeas and I believe it will lead to his demise(one way or the other).

I think Kaladin/Shallan have a pretty decent shot of working out. They could have their viewpoints and not be terribly repetitive(always in same place). Kaladin could be out on the warfront for significant chunks of time and Shallan could be with Dalinar/Navani working on the finer points of learning about the voidbringers/strategy and ghostblood activity. I think it was significant that in the chasms Shallan(a liar) told Kaladin truths about her past and he knows her better than Adolin. Shallan/Kaladin may end up a strong friendship but romantic relationship seems more likely to me at this point. I don't think they will be romantic for a while though, just more getting to know each other in the interim.

[kari-no-sugata]

8 hours ago, YKDG22 said:

I get the feeling that Adolin is going to die by the end of book 5. Either redeeming himself publicly to the high princes against the Voidbringers or on the run(in exile). I think this is the easy way to allow the Kaladin/Shallan romance, because no love triangle and no Dalinar/Kaladin awkardness or bad blood over the relationship. Adolin seems like a likely good guy character to be killed off. He's significant, but not necessarily important. Sanderson can kill off a good guy that will sting readers(maybe not all) that doesn't really seem to have a large effect to the primary characters of the story. His biggest role was killing Sadeas and I believe it will lead to his demise(one way or the other).

Gaining redemption implies he made a huge mistake that caused a lot of harm. Is Sadeas a saint now or what? I very much doubt many people who know Sadeas will actually regret his passing. Brandon himself said that killing Sadeas was something that needed to be done. The other high princes aren't saints either - so why is it necessary for Adolin to die for doing something that needed to be done to appease a bunch of people who will be increasingly unimportant going forwards and generally haven't done anything to justify being appeased? In addition, the end of book 5 could well be 2 years after Sadeas death and he'll probably be mostly forgotten by then.

This is not to say that what Adolin did was perfectly acceptable or "right" either.

With regards to bumping off characters just to raise the tension, that's actually a bad thing. Characters should be treated with more respect than that.

 

8 hours ago, YKDG22 said:

I think Kaladin/Shallan have a pretty decent shot of working out. They could have their viewpoints and not be terribly repetitive(always in same place). Kaladin could be out on the warfront for significant chunks of time and Shallan could be with Dalinar/Navani working on the finer points of learning about the voidbringers/strategy and ghostblood activity. I think it was significant that in the chasms Shallan(a liar) told Kaladin truths about her past and he knows her better than Adolin. Shallan/Kaladin may end up a strong friendship but romantic relationship seems more likely to me at this point. I don't think they will be romantic for a while though, just more getting to know each other in the interim.

In my mind, Shallan is someone who can find something to like about almost anyone, given time. The "given time" bit is important since she certainly doesn't always find people to be likeable immediately. If she finds someone less likeable as time goes on then that person's probably evil. I don't know for sure if this aspect of Shallan applies to romance as well but it wouldn't be a huge surprise. This is not to say that I can actually imagine specific scenes of her doing this with a wide variety of people. And this is not to say that "anyone will do" for Shallan either.

Personally, I would find it unfortunate for Shallan's character if she's always the one on the "giving" side, the one making the sacrifices, the one who gets the short straw. She's so rarely been able to prioritise her own happiness, so rarely been given real help and and assistance. I find it hard to imagine Kaladin being particularly romantic and he seems much more likely to add to Shallan's stress. Adolin seems like the opposite, once he gets over his personal issues with relationships.

[kari-no-sugata]

20 hours ago, maxal said:

Assuming Dalinar agrees, assuming Dalinar allows for Renarin and Shallan to court, what then? I expect Shallan would have needed to take the lead, to set the dates and to make the arrangement as I suspect Renarin would have merely delayed hoping everyone would just forget. Considering what we know of Renarin, he would have likely to babble and/or drag on into lengthy explanations over uninteresting subjects. For instance, within their first date, Shallan asks Adolin about wine card and Adolin merely states he has no idea what is good and what is not, he just chooses at random. This puts Shallan at ease right away because she keeps on feeling she is inadequate to date Adolin because he upbringing wasn't fancy enough. Knowing the prince seems as clueless as her must have truly made her feel more confident about her skills. Now, let's imagine the same scene playing with Renarin, then Renarin would have probably start to ramble on the various wines, going into numerous details (as Adolin did say Renarin would do this if you let him) which would have put Shallan ill-at-east and also wonder what she has gotten herself into. 

I do not know how into Renarin would have been with Shallan's chasmfiend theory as I suspect Renarin only talks of subjects he knows deeply. This might not be one of the them, so it is either he would, once again, talk endlessly about it or he would have nothing to say.

This being said, I am pretty sure she would have given him a decent chance, she would have pulled up with much in order to save her brothers. I suspect, with time, she might have come to appreciate him, but I can't see any romance spark in between them. An agreed partnership seems the best they could have hope for, but love? I doubt so.

It sometimes feels like I should never say never with Shallan but if she consider how she attracted to Kabsal and Adolin, they were both friendly, positive though somewhat self-deprecating, relaxed and good conversationalists. When Shallan was with Kaladin, she spent a lot of time complaining about him being negative and tense. Renarin seems even worse. Shallan is definitely capable of liking difficult people (eg Jasnah) but it seems a heck of a lot harder...