Theorycrafting: Nalan will come chasing after Adolin in Oathbringer

[dvoraen]

1 hour ago, Erklitt said:

It has to start somewhere, somehow... AFAIK we don't have any clear precedence, we can only guess. With Dalinar, it might have started when he started having the visions, after he had been 'chosen' by the Stormfather. With Shallan: too early for us to see. That garden scene is still wrapped in mysteries... With Kaladin: who knows? Maybe when he volunteered to join Tien in the army, in order to protect him? Anyway, I don't see any reason why this should not have been the moment for Adolin...

Because it was happening earlier.  The major sign, that I see, is when the Thrill began to no longer work, nauseating him instead.  This also happens with Dalinar in WoK, though he had the visions start before this symptom.

I think something else happened that is leading to Adolin manifesting as a Radiant, and while I do think it happened during WoR, it was before the Stormseat Oathgate expedition began.  Somewhere between the encounter Adolin has with Eshonai (before she took on stormform, when she said she'd send a messenger*) and the expedition towards the end.  Alternatively, he could very well have reached a point where he's been slowly changing the (Spiritual) Identity required to Nahel-bond with his blade, because he's been actively reaching out to it all this time (via his 'talks' and possibly more).

 

* The Thrill was still affecting him at this point, is why I identify it as the earliest part.

Edited August 10, 2016 by dvoraen

[Argel he/him]

Are you talking about in the battle with the parshendi at the end?

Quote

 

Where was the Thrill that usually propelled him through this kind of butchery? He needed it. Instead, he felt only nausea.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (The Stormlight Archive, Book 2) (p. 1002). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

Because that could be the Unmade denying the thrill to the forces working against Odium's interests. 

[maxal she/her]

4 hours ago, dvoraen said:

Because it was happening earlier.  The major sign, that I see, is when the Thrill began to no longer work, nauseating him instead.  This also happens with Dalinar in WoK, though he had the visions start before this symptom.

I think something else happened that is leading to Adolin manifesting as a Radiant, and while I do think it happened during WoR, it was before the Stormseat Oathgate expedition began.  Somewhere between the encounter Adolin has with Eshonai (before she took on stormform, when she said she'd send a messenger*) and the expedition towards the end.  Alternatively, he could very well have reached a point where he's been slowly changing the (Spiritual) Identity required to Nahel-bond with his blade, because he's been actively reaching out to it all this time (via his 'talks' and possibly more).

 

* The Thrill was still affecting him at this point, is why I identify it as the earliest part.

Adolin has been rejecting the Thrill steadily since the beginning of WoR.

In his first duel, Adolin succumbs to the Thrill, he beats down Salinor brutally, an event which leaves him both troubled and drained. 

In the gem hunt with Jakamav, Adolin is so wrapped up within the Thrill, he thinks climbing a cliff while standing on his Blade, a feat leaving him, alone, to fend for himself among enemies actually is a good idea. However, when Eshonai demands to parley with him, he fights it down, he fights the urge to jump on her because he knows his father would want him to listen to her.

In his third duel, Adolin refuses to let the Thrill rise in him. He fights for perfection, he doesn't want it messing up with his head.

There are no mention of Adolin and the Thrill which I can remember after this until the very end. There, he wants it. He noticed it isn't there after one of his captain suggests he may want to climb the rock formation, on his own, to attack the singers. He thinks he should want to do it, he should feel the urge to be reckless, but all he feels is tiredness. Still, he goes on, because it has to be done but he is forced to slay the helpless singers, he just can't do it. Suddenly, he is a monster. 

Therefore, the rejection of the Thrill has been going on for a while. It is unclear when he suddenly became incapable of summoning it, but my personal guess is when he stepped into prison for Kaladin. There, there, he made a stand, a firmer stand than he has done before, so there I believe, he lost the capacity to wrap himself into the Thrill, but this is speculation.

[Erklitt she/her]

This thread, with its repeated mention of Adolin reviving his blade, made me want to picture the moment and inspired me to write my very first, very small piece of fan fiction. I think here is where it fits best, so if you are in the mood for a little silliness: enjoy!

=========================

[The Scene: Adolin alone on the run. It makes no difference whether he flees from the law or Nalan or Szeth or Shallan or ...]

Adolin drove his Shardblade into the ground, commanding it to stay. Storms, he felt so lonely. He needed at least his Blade by his side. He'd taken to talking to it more and more during the long nights and days on the road. What did that say about his sanity... storms, if Shallan knew, he'd never hear the end of it. Or worse, the bridgeboy!

Staring at the ground, Adolin mused about the fact that even the bridgeboys company would be welcome right now.

"Rankle."

Adolin jumped, reaching for his Blade. Where had that voice come from?

The Blade was gone. Looking around wildly for whoever had spoken, Adolin began the summoning process, promply letting go again in surprise when the Blade formed instantly into his outstretched hand. He stared directly at the metal as it dissolved again, momentarily looking like glowing wine ranks that quickly sank to the ground. And continued glowing. Glowing, and sparkling.

"It's my name. I just remembered I have a name. I thought you should know it, so you can call me by it."

Turning left and right, Adolin searched frantically for the source of the voice. It sounded so near. Actually... he stared at the shimmer on the ground next to him. It sounded like the voice came from that. Quickly, he made a step backwards.

In reflex, he began to summon his Blade again. This time, he held on when it dropped into his hand without delay, though he stared at it for a moment in disbelief. He pointed it at the shimmering spot on the ground - but the shimmer was gone.

"Where are you? What are you?" he asked into the night, Blade still pointing at the spot on the ground directly in fromt of him.

"I'm a spren," the Blade said.

Adolin threw the Blade as if it had stung him. He'd seen a mouth open directly below the hilt. Had he lost his mind completely now?

Once again, the Blade dissolved and dropped as a shimmering net of vines to the ground. "Could you please make up your mind whether you want to hold me or not?" The same mouth, now formed of light instead of metal, moved in the middle of the glowing ground.

Adolin suddenly felt weak. He sat down where he stood, staring at the shimmer in front of him. The talking, moving shimmer. His voice trembled slightly as he tried to form a question.

"What... did you... did you just say your name was Rankle?"

"Yes, I did. Nice to meet you."

Adolin felt unreal. His Sword was talking back to him. No, not his Sword now. This strange glowing thing that had been his Sword. Weakness, surprise, exhaustion, it all began to build up into helpless laughter.

"Rankle? Are you serious? I'd imagined something like, I don't know, Voidslayer, or Deathbringer or something. Now you are telling me my Shardblade is named Rankle?"

The voice sounded a little miffed now. "Please, no jokes about my name. I have just remembered... I had enough of those millenia ago."

Edited August 11, 2016 by Erklitt

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

I love your story @Erklitt, although I think someone, Shallan or Renarin, will tell Adolin that the Shardblades are dead spren. That will be the catalyst for him to say the first two oaths, promising the Blade that he will live as a Radiant would as long as they are bonded and that Adolin will not forget the spren. The transition from sword to spren will happen at a suitably spectacular and climatic moment, and all the Radiants will be amazed by him. 

…Not that I've thought of this extensively or anything. 

[maxal she/her]

9 hours ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

I love your story @Erklitt, although I think someone, Shallan or Renarin, will tell Adolin that the Shardblades are dead spren. That will be the catalyst for him to say the first two oaths, promising the Blade that he will live as a Radiant would as long as they are bonded and that Adolin will not forget the spren. The transition from sword to spren will happen at a suitably spectacular and climatic moment, and all the Radiants will be amazed by him. 

…Not that I've thought of this extensively or anything. 

Actually, you may want to re-read this WoB I posted in another topic:

Adolin's shardblade is a RAFO, as I want this to play out naturally and not squelch discussion. Suffice it to say that a dead Shardblade, under normal circumstances, is locked into a single form.

We'll find out more about dead spren as the books move forward.

 

I'll admit this isn't conclusive, but Brandon more or less tells us anything related to Adolin's Blade is not only a RAFO, but he also wish for it to happen... naturally. I thus do not expect a big WOW moment where the spren is magically revived nor do I expect Adolin to consciously start to try to revive it. What I do expect, however, is Adolin, after a dark period, will slowly come around. He'll come to accept Radiants are not only back, but the core of his family now. He'll make peace with not being one of them, accepting he is just not worthy of a Nahel bond (I definitely see Adolin retaining lasting self-confidence issues, consistently doubting himself), but I also see him still try to live by his father's new ideals. He may not be a Radiant, but he'll try to endorse their motto, their oaths. He'll try to be more "like them" even if he knows he'll never be like them. I see others, when Adolin sinks to the lowest, try to tell him "Life before death, Strength before weakness, Journey before destination", but I also see Adolin chafe it away as he did with the Way of Kings. I even see him screaming his head out each time he hears it up until it finally sinks in, up until the one moment where it actually starts to make sense. Then, then, then he'll start to believe in this first oath. Slowly, he'll make his way to other oaths which unlike everything his father tried to hammer into him, actually sounds like his own voice. For once, it sounds like him and even if it doesn't give him super-powers, he'll feel better, he'll finally start to feel as if he were himself.

All through it, the Blade behaves abnormally, but Adolin stubbornly hangs on to it (Dalinar worries a lot over Adolin during this period) and it eventually, slowly, it starts to show signs of life. Oh it is subtle at first... First, Renarin noticed a white glowing light surrounding it after his brother has used it for something decisive. From the corner of one eye, Renarin even sees a small glyph appears on it, then disappear. Small signs, small steps. Adolin sees nothing because let's face it, he'd be the last one to actually noticed, but he hears words, somethings. Not just duck, but move, jump, left or right. Often, he hears faster too, but he can't possibly go any faster. He thinks his head if the problem (he and Renarin are brothers after all). Ever since murdering Sadeas after mind snapping, after the emotional roller coaster he went through afterwards, Adolin does not trust his head as much as he used to. Therefore, when his desperately summons his Blade in a given fight, needing it, now and it manifests itself before the 10 heartbeats: Adolin merely thinks he miscounted. He think he must have been too exhausted, too spaced out to actually count properly: after all, he always seems to space out during fights, especially since the Radiants came back.

The first time he surgebinde is during a battle. He needs to get there: he won't make it in time. The Radiants aren't capable of helping for one reason or another, so it is up to him, but he isn't fast enough. He isn't up to the task. He is going to fail. Again. Him. He has failed too often now it seems and he will not fail again. He has to be faster. The Someone has to be, someone has to do something. Someone has to care enough to do something, so again, he wants to be faster. The new word he hears is different then the barely audible murmurs he previously heard. Different. A name perhaps? Unconsciously, because he is desperate, he says the name, he wishes to be faster, he closes his eyes and he... moves. Fast. Too fast. 

Nobody noticed. Adolin thinks he hallucinated, but it happens again. The odds are even bigger. There are too many of them and just one of him. He is Adolin Kholin: he can't let monster slaughter his men, he has to do something. Why aren't the Radiants doing anything? Then, it clicks. He becomes fast, like a ribbon in the wind. He becomes death, he kills them all, he has do, but once he is done, he just drops to the ground. The Blade vanishes, but this time it doesn't completely goes away, wines and crystal forms and twist over him, silently wishing for him to wake up, afraid it had been too much. You aren't supposed to move from level 0 to level 5 so suddenly. 

Perhaps the Stormfather looms by saying this is impossible, trying to order the poor spren to go back to the cognitive realm, claiming she cannot do this. She cannot possibly choose him. The spren does not care, Stormfather is not her father and Adolin reminds her of... someone. After a long agonizing sleep, she isn't going to risk it again, so she clinks to him.

When he wakes up, he is forced to acknowledge he has become something else. He asks to go see it, the destruction he caused. It hurts, so he goes to the injured tent. Those are the ones his killing somehow saved, but aren't quite saved yet. He has seen Renarin occasionally done it. He sits down and he tries. Simple things. Healing. Then it feels right. Everything suddenly is right.

That's about an idea of how it could happen, progressively. Of course, Brandon's take is bound to be much, much, much better.

 

 

[Kelsier Kenobi]

I definitely think Naln is going to come after Adolin, but I don't expect it in Oathbringer.  I think Naln will be with Szeth going after the Shin based on their interaction at the end of WoR.

[Rasarr she/her]

Confound you, @maxal, now my mind's adopting this as a headcanon! 

Seriously, though, good post.

[maxal she/her]

3 hours ago, Rasarr said:

Confound you, @maxal, now my mind's adopting this as a headcanon! 

Seriously, though, good post.

Thanks  

This is one of my personal speculations (there has been others) on how the Blade revival story arc may take form. At first, I used to think of very dramatic arcs, very sudden, but it felt too... much perhaps? I think this plays out more naturally. Of course, I did not extrapolate on the circumstances through which Adolin starts to believe in the first oath and starts to surgebinde, but I can think of several plausible ones where he may do just that. Adolin, just like Dalinar, learns through strong examples, harsh lessons, so each oath, I suspect will come through a defining moment: not all will be life threatening, but some may be.

For my part, I find the idea of Adolin having to go through five ordeals to figure out his five oaths while not even being aware of what he is doing rather compelling. 

The only problem I have is I do not know what to do with the "something more" Brandon told us needs to happen... In all of my personal plotting, I have Adolin take about the same steps: losing the Blade (preferably through battle), gaining the Blade again, start to believe in the first oath, the Blade behaves badly, goes through the Five Works of Adolin to figure out the Oaths, ends up connecting all the dots only towards the end, but when he does, it is more spectacular because... so much power, so suddenly. 

Unfortunately, I am missing the "something more". There has been ideas as to what it may be, but they are hard to insert and they remove the magic from the revival arc which has to retain some of the "impossible being done". Other sprens need to witness it, to see it has happened.

I really hope Brandon goes there with Adolin, I really really hope. 

[dvoraen]

On 8/10/2016 at 7:41 PM, maxal said:

Adolin has been rejecting the Thrill steadily since the beginning of WoR.

In his first duel, Adolin succumbs to the Thrill, he beats down Salinor brutally, an event which leaves him both troubled and drained. 

In the gem hunt with Jakamav, Adolin is so wrapped up within the Thrill, he thinks climbing a cliff while standing on his Blade, a feat leaving him, alone, to fend for himself among enemies actually is a good idea. However, when Eshonai demands to parley with him, he fights it down, he fights the urge to jump on her because he knows his father would want him to listen to her.

In his third duel, Adolin refuses to let the Thrill rise in him. He fights for perfection, he doesn't want it messing up with his head.

There are no mention of Adolin and the Thrill which I can remember after this until the very end. There, he wants it. He noticed it isn't there after one of his captain suggests he may want to climb the rock formation, on his own, to attack the singers. He thinks he should want to do it, he should feel the urge to be reckless, but all he feels is tiredness. Still, he goes on, because it has to be done but he is forced to slay the helpless singers, he just can't do it. Suddenly, he is a monster. 

Therefore, the rejection of the Thrill has been going on for a while. It is unclear when he suddenly became incapable of summoning it, but my personal guess is when he stepped into prison for Kaladin. There, there, he made a stand, a firmer stand than he has done before, so there I believe, he lost the capacity to wrap himself into the Thrill, but this is speculation.

We're in agreement that it's been a gradual process of rejection.  The point I was trying to make was that he passed some sort of threshold where it was outright nauseating.  Something changed internally at some point to cause it to be (dare I say) attacked by his "Spiritual(?) immune system".  Rather than fighting the Thrill down as before, it was never accepted in the first place; it didn't take hold, and instead he felt nausea.  I'm wondering if there was a specific event (offscreen, perhaps) that caused such a change, or if it's a matter of reaching a specific threshold towards gaining a true Nahel bond with his Shardblade.

[maxal she/her]

3 hours ago, dvoraen said:

We're in agreement that it's been a gradual process of rejection.  The point I was trying to make was that he passed some sort of threshold where it was outright nauseating.  Something changed internally at some point to cause it to be (dare I say) attacked by his "Spiritual(?) immune system".  Rather than fighting the Thrill down as before, it was never accepted in the first place; it didn't take hold, and instead he felt nausea.  I'm wondering if there was a specific event (offscreen, perhaps) that caused such a change, or if it's a matter of reaching a specific threshold towards gaining a true Nahel bond with his Shardblade.

As I said in my response, I think the threshold may have been standing up in prison for Kaladin. The moment where he said "It wasn't right for you to be in there". This is the defining moment because it is the one moment where Adolin stood up on his own: he took action outside his father's approval and he did go against a king's decree. While he never got to read the reaction from the Kholin's household, the shouting at least indicates Adolin has not gone down there with full support of his family. 

It was him. His decision. His voice. His choice: to fix something which had been wrong. To heal. The next time we see him yield his Blade, there is word duck written in italic which has caused all sorts of discussion.

I thus think the prison scene is precisely when Adolin took his first step onto the journey, but it was all but one step. His journey is probably going to be very rocky because, unlike the others, he has not been born "broken". Also, he's older. He is not a child. And while other Radiants more or less unconsciously started their journey or where forced to chose those paths by events, Adolin actually has his own agency. He made this choice, even if he has no idea what he had just done. He didn't have the peer pressure of events to guide him there or a spren dictating him to go there: it is all him and that's rather compelling. 

[Argel he/him]

I am hoping the prison sequence is there to help cement Adolin is a good person and that the Sadeas event will not completely ruin his life.

I think the duel meant a lot to Adolin. Renarin came to help, but needed help, and Kal came in, and gave them the chance to turn things around. I think it meant a lot. Probably a bit of a bonding moment for both, but more so for Adolin.

You know, Adolin seem remarkably openminded for a lighteyes, compared to many. Kal comments on it. I suppose that could also be a "requirement" for KRs. So far I don't think any KR or proto-KR we have seen as truly prejudiced, except possibly Elhokar, and that could be more about "that's just the way they are" (i.e. societal prejudices, not personal ones).

As a side note, Elhokar may be sympathetic to Adolin if he's forced to judge him (Adolin), because he knows he botched their chance to get Sadeas after the duel by getting angry at Kaladin. So his father could feel some remorse for not dealing with Sadeas himself, and Elhokar could for botching their plan to trap Sadeas. So there's a path to Adolin getting off light.

[dvoraen]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

As I said in my response, I think the threshold may have been standing up in prison for Kaladin. The moment where he said "It wasn't right for you to be in there". This is the defining moment because it is the one moment where Adolin stood up on his own: he took action outside his father's approval and he did go against a king's decree. While he never got to read the reaction from the Kholin's household, the shouting at least indicates Adolin has not gone down there with full support of his family. 

It was him. His decision. His voice. His choice: to fix something which had been wrong. To heal. The next time we see him yield his Blade, there is word duck written in italic which has caused all sorts of discussion.

I thus think the prison scene is precisely when Adolin took his first step onto the journey, but it was all but one step. His journey is probably going to be very rocky because, unlike the others, he has not been born "broken". Also, he's older. He is not a child. And while other Radiants more or less unconsciously started their journey or where forced to chose those paths by events, Adolin actually has his own agency. He made this choice, even if he has no idea what he had just done. He didn't have the peer pressure of events to guide him there or a spren dictating him to go there: it is all him and that's rather compelling. 

This is why I shouldn't post in forums after midnight. I could swear I read your post and didn't see that line. >.>

 

One thing that's been bothering me, though, is that Adolin doesn't strike me as a 'broken' person yet.  There are a couple other Nahel candidates ("Initiates"?) that struck me as odd as to why they were chosen.  For example, if Tien was really undergoing the first steps towards being a Lightweaver, at such a young age, what 'broke' him?  I feel like there's something missing insofar as Rosharan Initiation is concerned, regarding the semantics of the Nahel bond being placed.

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

1 hour ago, Argel said:

You know, Adolin seem remarkably openminded for a lighteyes, compared to many. Kal comments on it. I suppose that could also be a "requirement" for KRs. So far I don't think any KR or proto-KR we have seen as truly prejudiced, except possibly Elhokar, and that could be more about "that's just the way they are" (i.e. societal prejudices, not personal ones).

Kaladin is very prejudiced. He's prejudiced against lighteyes, the ruling class. You could argue that his oath in WoR is about not letting his prejudices get in the way of his protection of others. 

[maxal she/her]

10 hours ago, Argel said:

I am hoping the prison sequence is there to help cement Adolin is a good person and that the Sadeas event will not completely ruin his life.

I think the duel meant a lot to Adolin. Renarin came to help, but needed help, and Kal came in, and gave them the chance to turn things around. I think it meant a lot. Probably a bit of a bonding moment for both, but more so for Adolin.

You know, Adolin seem remarkably openminded for a lighteyes, compared to many. Kal comments on it. I suppose that could also be a "requirement" for KRs. So far I don't think any KR or proto-KR we have seen as truly prejudiced, except possibly Elhokar, and that could be more about "that's just the way they are" (i.e. societal prejudices, not personal ones).

As a side note, Elhokar may be sympathetic to Adolin if he's forced to judge him (Adolin), because he knows he botched their chance to get Sadeas after the duel by getting angry at Kaladin. So his father could feel some remorse for not dealing with Sadeas himself, and Elhokar could for botching their plan to trap Sadeas. So there's a path to Adolin getting off light.

I certainly think the prison scene is meant to cement Adolin as a good person and I certainly do not think the fact he mind snapped will ruin his life. It will be... hard for him: no more hiding his weaknesses, no more pretending he is super strong always confident Adolin. They will all see him at his worst, at this most vulnerable state and that will be difficult for him to bear. Imagine someone who's life trajectory has been, so far, almost spot perfect. Oh yes there is this tiny issue with women, but let's blame this on youth. Everything else is just clean, white, pure and perfect, so what happens when perfection hits a wall? Everything just starts to pour out, every little thing which has been hiding being this mask of perfection.

It could go bad, very bad, but I certainly think Adolin has enough good in him to pull through.

I also think the duel meant a lot to Adolin. He was genuinely hurt when he realized none of this so-called friendship would actually have his back if he ever was in need, so to have someone being willing to risk something for him meant the world to him. Even if this someone is someone he dislikes. Hence, Adolin wants to fix the wrong done to Kaladin.

How Elhokar feels towards Adolin is yet a mystery to me... it could go several ways.

10 hours ago, dvoraen said:

This is why I shouldn't post in forums after midnight. I could swear I read your post and didn't see that line. >.>

 

One thing that's been bothering me, though, is that Adolin doesn't strike me as a 'broken' person yet.  There are a couple other Nahel candidates ("Initiates"?) that struck me as odd as to why they were chosen.  For example, if Tien was really undergoing the first steps towards being a Lightweaver, at such a young age, what 'broke' him?  I feel like there's something missing insofar as Rosharan Initiation is concerned, regarding the semantics of the Nahel bond being placed.

 Happens to the best of us 

Simply because Adolin has started to walk on a potential journey does not mean he has to be broken. Of course, to get a functional Nahel bond, he'll need to break, which just happened towards the end of WoR. I would however argue Adolin has been stretching thin for a while.

I personally do not believe Tien was on his way towards Radianhood.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2016 by maxal

[dionysus]

I may be reaching, but Adolin does have one instance of evidence of having a spren around him.

From page 1023 of the ebook. 

"Adolin sliced through the tarp and then jumped forward to swing for the assassin.

He found nothing to fight.

Duck.

He threw himself to the ground as something passed over his head...."

Battle intuition or outside intervention? I do seem to remember several times in the Cosmere, especially in the Mistborn series, italicized instructions have represented external communication from an outside power, not an internal thought.

Also, would Nalan still want to kill surgebinders if the Everstorm and final desolation are already here? He may refocus his efforts in some equally insane and misguided way.

Edited August 16, 2016 by dionysus

[maxal she/her]

5 hours ago, dionysus said:

I may be reaching, but Adolin does have one instance of evidence of having a spren around him.

From page 1023 of the ebook. 

"Adolin sliced through the tarp and then jumped forward to swing for the assassin.

He found nothing to fight.

Duck.

He threw himself to the ground as something passed over his head...."

Battle intuition or outside intervention? I do seem to remember several times in the Cosmere, especially in the Mistborn series, italicized instructions have represented external communication from an outside power, not an internal thought.

Also, would Nalan still want to kill surgebinders if the Everstorm and final desolation are already here? He may refocus his efforts in some equally insane and misguided way.

This one has been on the discussion block for a long, long, long time. When we read it, it doesn't seem to be Adolin's thoughts. Also, he had no way of knowing where Szeth was which is why it is hard to believe his instincts are guiding him. The scene also happens after he gets nauseated by the killing.

The crazy thought-theory is the word Duck is not Adolin's thoughts, but the very first time he hears his Blade speaks to him. Unfortunately, it is impossible to confirm/infirm. I'd be a nice one to ask to Brandon even if we may get a RAFO, but it has been within the uncertainties with respect to Adolin for so long, I'd be great to find some oil to burn.

My personal thoughts are Adolin doesn't have a spren and he cannot surgebinde, much less draw in stormlight, but I do think his Blade had enough conscience to warn him of the danger. We'll have to see if it happens again.

Edited August 16, 2016 by maxal

[The Ninja Yodeler he/him]

On 8/10/2016 at 2:41 PM, maxal said:

We have seen how Dalinar has been able to maintain a high level of activity despite gruesome injuries merely because he was unconsciously using stormlight for years.

Well chullballs! Lol I hadnt even put that together! As many times as Ive read that section of when Dalinar was being looked over, with the physician(?) commenting on his scars, I never once made the connection that he may have been using tiny bits of stormlight unconsciously.

 

I always just thought that, ya know, he was able to do it because he's the Blackthorn.

[maxal she/her]

2 hours ago, The Ninja Yodeler said:

Well chullballs! Lol I hadnt even put that together! As many times as Ive read that section of when Dalinar was being looked over, with the physician(?) commenting on his scars, I never once made the connection that he may have been using tiny bits of stormlight unconsciously.

 

I always just thought that, ya know, he was able to do it because he's the Blackthorn.

It becomes obvious when he consciously draws stormlight towards the end of WoR to heal his ribs. He mentions how this wasn't the first time he was doing this thus implying he has used stormlight before. 

Hence most feats we see Dalinar have: fighting the chasmfiend, being able to land hits on Szeth weren't the acts of a "normal man", but a "proto-Radiant". It all makes me feel really sorry for Adolin.

[Yata he/him]

32 minutes ago, maxal said:

Hence most feats we see Dalinar have: fighting the chasmfiend, being able to land hits on Szeth weren't the acts of a "normal man", but a "proto-Radiant". It all makes me feel really sorry for Adolin.

And He is the only example (if I don't remember wrong) of both Stormlight and Shardplate Enhanced in the modern time

[Djarskublar he/him]

If him finally getting his blade to heal happens in a non spectacular way, like people are guessing may happen, I think Adolin will take his circumstances very well. He has always behaved in a relatively mature manner. I don't think his family all being Radiants and him murdering Sadeas will be a big deal emotionally. He just doesn't have the chronic depression of Kal, the childhood trauma of Shallan, or the untold dark past of Dalinar. He may not like losing the spotlight, but he is a good guy. My bet is that he will confess to killing Sadeas, but construe events to get himself out of serious repercussions. This IS Dalinar's book after all, not Adolin's. People are all hung up on him, but our Sand Man is too good an author to share the fixation. I just want to see Eshonai come back to us normal style as a workform or something. I doubt she is dead.

He may have had serious problems if the stuff happening now had happened at the start of WoK, but he is a full man now. He accepted the Codes (which this thread has ignored so far), he went to prison, and he lost the Thrill. While I wouldn't say he was spoiled ever, he was kinda an arrogant bastard to start off. He knows how good he is, but he had his delusions that he was the best shattered by a certain bridgeboy. Now he is a decent fellow all the way. Besides that minor bit of murder. 

I disliked Adolin at first, but now he's a good character. Anyone else think his acceptance of the Codes was actually the true first step? If he is a protoEdgedancer, that could have been him realizing that the lighteyed society had forgotten the little people, and that the Codes were there to keep you in line rather than partying away your money and dignity.

[maxal she/her]

1 hour ago, Djarskublar said:

If him finally getting his blade to heal happens in a non spectacular way, like people are guessing may happen, I think Adolin will take his circumstances very well. He has always behaved in a relatively mature manner. I don't think his family all being Radiants and him murdering Sadeas will be a big deal emotionally. He just doesn't have the chronic depression of Kal, the childhood trauma of Shallan, or the untold dark past of Dalinar. He may not like losing the spotlight, but he is a good guy. My bet is that he will confess to killing Sadeas, but construe events to get himself out of serious repercussions. This IS Dalinar's book after all, not Adolin's. People are all hung up on him, but our Sand Man is too good an author to share the fixation. I just want to see Eshonai come back to us normal style as a workform or something. I doubt she is dead.

He may have had serious problems if the stuff happening now had happened at the start of WoK, but he is a full man now. He accepted the Codes (which this thread has ignored so far), he went to prison, and he lost the Thrill. While I wouldn't say he was spoiled ever, he was kinda an arrogant bastard to start off. He knows how good he is, but he had his delusions that he was the best shattered by a certain bridgeboy. Now he is a decent fellow all the way. Besides that minor bit of murder. 

I disliked Adolin at first, but now he's a good character. Anyone else think his acceptance of the Codes was actually the true first step? If he is a protoEdgedancer, that could have been him realizing that the lighteyed society had forgotten the little people, and that the Codes were there to keep you in line rather than partying away your money and dignity.

Simply because someone doesn't have chronic depression or a traumatic childhood does not mean they can't emotionally react to events nor does it prevent them from having hardships of their own. The way you actually write it, nothing would ever affect Adolin because he failed to have been tortured during his childhood. To this I would answer life does not end at 16 years old: simply because nothing happened to him as a youngster does not mean he is immune to future hardships.

All clues we have indicate murdering Sadeas is a big deal to Adolin and while we can all argue endlessly as to what it means for him, legally speaking, we should never disregard the fact Adolin does not agree with himself here. He thinks he did bad and whether he did bad or not is hardly going to matter. He may have accepted the Codes, but only because he finally saw the good they do, now he has to come to grip with the bad it does. He couldn't, hence he broke them. The reason most people don't talk so much about Adolin accepting the code towards the end of WoK is because most people would argue accepting and believing in their utmost necessity are two different things. He has accepted to stop fighting against them, but he does not believe in them hard enough to allow them to dictate his conduct when his back is up against the wall.

He broke the Codes when he sat in prison for Kaladin. He broke them again when he murdered Sadeas. They certainly aren't dictating his life nor does he believe they should, even if he is not ready to admit it.

I also disagree Adolin is an arrogant bastard: if he comes of as arrogant, it merely is to hide his own doubts, his own lack of self-confidence as he admits to himself. The bastard part, I dunno where it comes from, he has always been a rather nice guy. I would also strongly disagree with saying murdering Sadeas merely a tiny bit of murder... Tien died: a soldier in a war died at war and it was enough to plunge Kaladin into depression and to break his spirit. How is it killing with his own hands a Highprince in a fit of uncontrollable rage supposed to not affect Adolin? On average, I'd say those who argue it won't affect him tends to be the readers who don't enjoy his character so much (nothing wrong here, there are characters others loved I don't enjoy so much) and do not wish for his story arc to span across too many pages. I could use the same argument for other characters I personally dislike, but this is beyond the point. Realistically speaking, murdering Sadeas may not be a big legal deal, but it will have complex ramifications which will impact Adolin, one way or another. For this not to happen would be a terribly anti-climatic story telling: you don't give your character a cliffhanger ending only to have him walk out of it as if it never happened.

I would also warn people not to put too much emphasis onto who's book it is. The book thing merely is a deconstruction the author has chosen to implement in order to have his readers recall a given book as "this specific character book". It does not bear any significance nor promises as to how big the story arc of this character will end up being. For instance, even in his own book, Szeth's story arc will be much smaller than Kaladin, but it'll be bigger than his actual one which currently sits at around 20K words (apprx). Dalinar's story arc has averaged around 30K in the past two books, so while it may be bigger going into book 3, it won't be 140K words as Kaladin was in WoK. In fact, Kaladin will probably have the largest story arc, yet again.

Adolin has plenty of page time going into book 3 to further develop into a character and to explore his dark corner. Not everyone enjoys him, but he is, on average, a character many readers enjoy reading. His future arc is also among the most anticipated which makes me think Brandon will not disappoint here. Stuff will happen to Adolin, good and bad. We may not be able to predict all of it, but one prediction I do firmly believe in: he won't shrink into the background nor will he brush away the consequences of murdering Sadeas as if it never happened.

 

[Djarskublar he/him]

Fair enough. I was being sarcastic with the minor bit of murder thing. I thought it was funny... Oh well. I think the Codes are a bigger deal to him, apparently. He had that moment where he realized the lighteyes are a bunch of fops, and decided the Codes were necessary and good. He bucked up and quit complaining about them then. While I agree he still doesn't like having to follow them, I do things that are necessary yet distasteful. Weeding comes to mind XD. I wouldn't say killing Sadeas won't affect him. It obviously Snapped him (hehe I noticed the similarity between becoming Radiant and an Allomancer a while ago) but he is more humble after the duel and almost dying on the Tower. So I don't expect the jealousy problems with his family other people are predicting. Plus he has a supportive girlfriend now.

One thing to note: what Adolin did to Sadeas is remarkably similar to what Kaladin almost did to Elhokar. Except if he is an edgedancer, he was remembering the lives lost on the Tower that Sadeas forgot/ignored, and trying to heal Alethkar.

I humbly accept your point about whose flashback book it is not being that big a deal. I do enjoy reading all the characters. I remember the first time through WoK I was pissed whenever a chapter ended because I didn't want to change POV. I wanted MORE and NOW... It was too good if such a thing is possible. I have no opinion as yet on whether Nalan will come for him.

[maxal she/her]

2 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

Fair enough. I was being sarcastic with the minor bit of murder thing. I thought it was funny... Oh well. I think the Codes are a bigger deal to him, apparently. He had that moment where he realized the lighteyes are a bunch of fops, and decided the Codes were necessary and good. He bucked up and quit complaining about them then. While I agree he still doesn't like having to follow them, I do things that are necessary yet distasteful. Weeding comes to mind XD. I wouldn't say killing Sadeas won't affect him. It obviously Snapped him (hehe I noticed the similarity between becoming Radiant and an Allomancer a while ago) but he is more humble after the duel and almost dying on the Tower. So I don't expect the jealousy problems with his family other people are predicting. Plus he has a supportive girlfriend now.

One thing to note: what Adolin did to Sadeas is remarkably similar to what Kaladin almost did to Elhokar. Except if he is an edgedancer, he was remembering the lives lost on the Tower that Sadeas forgot/ignored, and trying to heal Alethkar.

I humbly accept your point about whose flashback book it is not being that big a deal. I do enjoy reading all the characters. I remember the first time through WoK I was pissed whenever a chapter ended because I didn't want to change POV. I wanted MORE and NOW... It was too good if such a thing is possible. I have no opinion as yet on whether Nalan will come for him.

That's OK, I didn't get the sarcasm, so my bad. 

Adolin understands the Codes, he sees their use in preventing the lighteyes from being fopish selfish fools, but he doesn't believe in their irrevocable nature. In other words, while he hasn't progressed enough to admit it to himself, he doesn't believe Sadeas should not be dealt with because honor prevents it. He ultimately believes other forces are greater than honor and while he won't purposefully trampled on it, he won't blindly follow it and watch harm come to his loved one due to his inaction. 

I also disagree with others saying Adolin will grow jealous. Jealousy isn't one of this character traits nor is it within his behavioral patterns. His motivator isn't more power and more fame for himself, but care for his people. He genuinely wants to care for those he loves and he believes he can achieve this by being what he thinks they need him to be. For Renarin, he is carefree, always smiling, confident Adolin. For Dalinar, he is the dutiful, reliable, obedient son. For the Alethi society, he is fopish, arrogant, mouthy Adolin, the picture perfect model of expectations. Adolin is everything to everyone except himself which is why I do think when he breaks down one of his masks, his reaction will be to try to put it back on. Failing to meets all of this expectations, both those society, his father and, more importantly, himself have placed on him is his deepest fear which is why once chull hits the fan, he is more likely to try to retain his former role than feeling jealous he hasn't been elevated. In trying to do so he is more likely to choose an impulsive, foolhardy and very dangerous path simply just so he could regain the trust he felt he lost. He may end up thinking it is his duty to die for them or his life is now more expendable than the precious Radiants. 

He'll feel deflated and his self-confidence will take a serious hit, but jealous? I don't see it happening.

His motivators are thus to be strong for those he loves, to be the one who withstand the tempest, to be the one who remains solid, the rock they can all lean on, but when he falters, he may just crumbled down, completely unused to be the one needing a hand. 

As for the flashbacks, the author said something to this effect: focus character doesn't always equate in having the largest story arc. He specifically used Szeth and Kaladin as an example.

 

Edited August 19, 2016 by maxal

[Djarskublar he/him]

Okay. You changed my mind. Lucky you are speaking with someone open minded! Your points are all solid, and I have no refutation, so you have changed my opinion. Gratz!