Isotopes?

[Mason Wheeler]

What would happen if an Allomancer burned a radioactive isotope of an Allomantic metal?

[Shadeshadow227]

...probably the same effect as normal...except they'd get radiation poisoning.

[Yata he/him]

To me an Isotope doesn't work.

The Metal's structure is important in the Metallic Arts. This mean that an Isotope would be "read" as a wrong metal (in the worst scenario) or a slight bad alloy (in the best)

[Vissy]

An isotope has a different molecular structure, and the structure of the chemical is important when it comes to Allomancy IIRC (think there was a WoB on something like this)

[Voidus]

Just now, Rob Lucci said:

An isotope has a different molecular structure, and the structure of the chemical is important when it comes to Allomancy IIRC (think there was a WoB on something like this)

To be massively nitpicky here: technically it has a different atomic structure, not molecular.
On the subject it'd likely burn as any other isotope of that metal would. It's not like all metal is usually made of the same isotope naturally, when a Mistborn burns iron they'd be burning around four isotopes of it.

[Vissy]

Oh, right yeah. The iron degrades over time and turn into another isotope, which is why there's more than one isotope present.

This is the source of the confusion

Quote

Kaimipono (16 October 2008)

Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?

Brandon Sanderson (17 October 2008)

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.

 

[happyman he/him]

OK, I'm seeing confusion here about what an isotope is and means.

First, my conclusions:  Different metal isotopes work just fine for Allomancy.  The Allomancy probably can't "see" well enough to know that they are different.

My background:  Physics Ph.D., but not one specializing in chemistry or "condensed-matter physics," i.e. the physics of the solid things around us.

Broadly speaking, all atoms have two different structures, the electronic structure and the nucleus structure.  

The structure of the nucleus is what creates isotopes.  Every nucleus consists of a combination of protons and neutrons.  All that really matters in the nucleus is the number of protons and neutrons; technically a nucleus can have different "shapes" depending on how the protons and neutrons are arranged, but in practice the forces between the protons and neutrons are so strong you never actually see a "wild" nucleus in anything besides the most compact version.  The number of protons is what determines which element the atom is, and the number of neutrons determines which isotope the atom is.  The important point about this nuclear structure is that it is very compact.  It's obscenely small.  Although it contains 99.94% or so of the mass of an atom, it's volume is roughly 1/100,000 that of the atom.  It's hard to see or measure.

The structure that is most important for chemistry is the structure of the electrons.  For practically all atoms, the structure of the electrons depends almost purely on the number of protons in the nucleus rather than the total mass in the nucleus.  (Technically the electron structure is slightly affected by the mass differences between the isotope nuclei, but good luck actually measuring the effects.  It's next to impossible with atoms as large as most metals.)  It's the chemistry, the electrons, which determines the kind of "shapes" the atoms form when they are combined into a solid.  This is largely why different isotopes of the same element are found together.  They act very much the same at the level of chemical reactions and can mix almost perfectly together into the same "grids."

My argument is that it is the chemical configurations which the Spiritweb senses when it burns the metals and uses that as a conduit for power.  My evidence is that the exact alloys matter when creating the paired internal and external metals.  The major effect of alloying metals is to change the legal chemical structure of the metals.  The "extra" atoms for the "other" metals have to fit somewhere, and that changes the kinds of patterns the atoms can make. The power is obviously not looking at the individual atoms, but rather the large-scale structures those atoms form.  Otherwise copper and bronze would produce the same power for Smokers, and would also be burnable by Tineyes.  Presumably Seekers would not exist.

Thus the effects of isotopes is almost certainly too small for Allomancy to detect.  Another way to think of it is that you could have a good metal which is a specific isotope, with all the other isotopes being slightly off.  However, the difference between the "true" metal and its isotopes is so obscenely small, no Mistborn or Misting would ever notice that their recent push or pull was weak by a factor of 99.99999999999999%.

Edited August 7, 2016 by happyman

[Oversleep]

@happyman Since we have a physicist on the subject already...

The thing is, we know that it doesn't matter which state the metal is in. It's possible to store and tap in molten metal, for example (obviously not advised for obvious reasons). Logical conclusion is that metal in any state can be burned (obviously not advised... with exception of bendalloy, perhaps).

But solid matter, liquids and gases differ on the molecular level - in gases atoms float freely while in solid state they are firmly in place.

Could you perhaps elaborate on that?

[happyman he/him]

2 hours ago, Oversleep said:

@happyman Since we have a physicist on the subject already...

The thing is, we know that it doesn't matter which state the metal is in. It's possible to store and tap in molten metal, for example (obviously not advised for obvious reasons). Logical conclusion is that metal in any state can be burned (obviously not advised... with exception of bendalloy, perhaps).

But solid matter, liquids and gases differ on the molecular level - in gases atoms float freely while in solid state they are firmly in place.

Could you perhaps elaborate on that?

Can you provide sources for that?  I don't remember any canonical examples of this.  If it were true, then burning alloys in those states would be difficult to define properly.

[Oversleep]

2 hours ago, happyman said:

Can you provide sources for that?  I don't remember any canonical examples of this.  If it were true, then burning alloys in those states would be difficult to define properly.

Here you go:

Quote

Nethseaar

Could an Allomancer or Feruchemist Burn or Feruchemically Fill molten metal? Would that affect the Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Something to the effect that it would be very painful and damaging, but yes, one could Burn and Fill molten metal, and yes, it would affect the Investiture.
source

Quote

Q: If a metalmind is melted down and changes shape, does it still retain its power?

A: Yes, only by mixing it with other metals would the power be completely lost. Also if any pieces of the metalmind are lost, then some of the power will be lost (as it would be in the missing pieces).
source

 

Edited August 7, 2016 by Oversleep

[BeskarKomrk he/him]

6 hours ago, Oversleep said:

@happyman Since we have a physicist on the subject already...

The thing is, we know that it doesn't matter which state the metal is in. It's possible to store and tap in molten metal, for example (obviously not advised for obvious reasons). Logical conclusion is that metal in any state can be burned (obviously not advised... with exception of bendalloy, perhaps).

But solid matter, liquids and gases differ on the molecular level - in gases atoms float freely while in solid state they are firmly in place.

Could you perhaps elaborate on that?

Not a phd here, just a lowly B.S. in Physics, but here's my thoughts on the matter.

An alloy like steel is a mixture of multiple elements, with at least one of them being a metal. The properties that make steel valuable as a building material are properties of the molecular structure, which does indeed change when it is melted down. However, steel in general, and Allomantic Steel in particular, are defined by the percentages of the different elements they contain. That mixture doesn't change when melted down. If you touched molten steel (ouch), you would still be touching the same mix of iron atoms and carbon atoms and whatever else is in Allomantic Steel. So from that perspective, I don't see why it would make a difference.

I also think there's an argument you could make that the Cognitive Identity of steel isn't changed when it's melted down, and that's the determining factor behind why it would still work.

[Oversleep]

4 hours ago, happyman said:

 I don't remember any canonical examples of this.

I just realized there IS an example. You see, bendalloy's melting point is at 70 °C (158 °F). In Alloy of Law, Wayne threw in bendalloy into a cup of tea and drank it.

And then threw a speed bubble just fine. So it is a thing.

[happyman he/him]

1 hour ago, BeskarKomrk said:

An alloy like steel is a mixture of multiple elements, with at least one of them being a metal. The properties that make steel valuable as a building material are properties of the molecular structure, which does indeed change when it is melted down. However, steel in general, and Allomantic Steel in particular, are defined by the percentages of the different elements they contain. That mixture doesn't change when melted down. If you touched molten steel (ouch), you would still be touching the same mix of iron atoms and carbon atoms and whatever else is in Allomantic Steel. So from that perspective, I don't see why it would make a difference.

I also think there's an argument you could make that the Cognitive Identity of steel isn't changed when it's melted down, and that's the determining factor behind why it would still work

You're right about the melted structure still being an alloy.  In that case, though, the Spiritweb isn't looking at individual atoms, but large-scale average properties.  This is fine, but it almost certainly means that it can't tell the difference between different isotopes.

The cognitive identity being important produces the same conclusion.  If it's the cognitive identity of the steel which makes it steel, then, since people can't easily tell the difference between different isotopes, or generally even know that isotopes are a thing, the different isotopes should behave identically.

Either way, isotopes have no effect on Allomancy.

[Irkutsk he/him]

2 hours ago, happyman said:

You're right about the melted structure still being an alloy.  In that case, though, the Spiritweb isn't looking at individual atoms, but large-scale average properties.  This is fine, but it almost certainly means that it can't tell the difference between different isotopes.

The cognitive identity being important produces the same conclusion.  If it's the cognitive identity of the steel which makes it steel, then, since people can't easily tell the difference between different isotopes, or generally even know that isotopes are a thing, the different isotopes should behave identically.

Either way, isotopes have no effect on Allomancy.

So, let's say that in another 50 years after era 2, we have a lurcher who has a degree in nuclear physics. He takes a sample of a pure uncommon isotope of iron and tries to burn it. If he knows perfectly well, that this iron sample is not like regular iron, would that then affect the iron's cognitive identity and thus it's ability to be burned? 

Edited August 8, 2016 by Irkutsk
Spelling

[Oversleep]

1 hour ago, Irkutsk said:

So, let's say that in another 50 years after era 2, we have a lurcher who has a degree in nuclear physics. He takes a sample of a pure uncommon isotope of iron and tries to burn it. If he knows perfectly well, that this iron sample is not like regular iron, would that then affect the iron's cognitive identity and thus it's ability to be burned?

I believe that Identity has nothing to do with it.

Brandon explained metals' structure as the same as correct lines in AonDor - the best way I can put it, is the resonance with Investiture. The closer to the "correct" pattern, the better. You could burn an alloy sligthly off, if your finger twitched while drawing an Aon it would probably work too; but get farer away and Investiture is not filtered properly, causing unwanted effects ("bad alloy" saying didn't come from nowhere). And we know what happens to a misdrawn Aon.

On 7.08.2016 at 4:24 AM, happyman said:

Thus the effects of isotopes is almost certainly too small for Allomancy to detect.  Another way to think of it is that you could have a good metal which is a specific isotope, with all the other isotopes being slightly off.  However, the difference between the "true" metal and its isotopes is so obscenely small, no Mistborn or Misting would ever notice that their recent push or pull was weak by a factor of 99.99999999999999%.

So I guess isotopes are not really distinguishable between themselves and effects are unobservable.

[Vissy]

Or maybe it really just depends on the metal's Cognitive Identity and the chemical structure is more or less a physical representative of that.

I mean, magic, right?!?!

Edited August 8, 2016 by Rob Lucci
Reasons!

[happyman he/him]

15 hours ago, Irkutsk said:

So, let's say that in another 50 years after era 2, we have a lurcher who has a degree in nuclear physics. He takes a sample of a pure uncommon isotope of iron and tries to burn it. If he knows perfectly well, that this iron sample is not like regular iron, would that then affect the iron's cognitive identity and thus it's ability to be burned? 

I don't think so.  As far as I can tell, the cognitive effect on things like this is usually a very broad consensus.  Individual perceptions only come into play only if they are within "standard" or "expected" versions of the cognitive and spiritual consensus.  I don't think stable isotopes are different enough for a single person to affect it.

Edited August 8, 2016 by happyman