Radiant Life Extension

[Three1415]

Recently, there has been much discussion about what potential benefits--beyond the Surges--KR might obtain as a result of the Nahel bond, motivated in part by the snippet of Edgedancer Brandon released in the newsletter, where Lift's request to the Nightwatcher is revealed almost verbatim:

Spoiler

She wished to "remain the same as the world changed around her."

This sparked significant discussion as to whether she would receive as her boon an extended lifespan, or whether her cognitive aspect had simply been frozen in the state it was in as she made that request. I, however, had another hypothesis--that the KR were simply immortal (or at least very long-lived) merely by the nature of their bond-- based on relevant information in the form of a single line in one of Dalinar's visions, where he is conversing with a (presumably) Stoneward:

Quote

The knight sniffed dismissively. "Voidbringers? These? No, this was Midnight Essence, though who released it is still a mystery." She looked to the side, expression growing distant. "Harkaylain says the Desolation is close, and he is not often wrong. He--"

[Bolded for emphasis]

-The Way of Kings, Part 2, Chapter 18, Page 307 (Paperback Edition)

This single line to me offers the most compelling evidence for a Radiant gaining some form of immortality from the Nahel bond. We know the Desolations could not have occurred more than once every century or so, both from the minimum time required to regenerate the lost population and forget metalworking, as well as another comment made during the vision, this one by Heb's (the man whom Dalinar is possessing) wife:

Quote

"Let's go," he [Dalinar] said, moving out into the darkness. "Are attacks by these beasts common?"

'During Desolations, perhaps, but not in my life!"

-The Way of Kings, Part 2, Chapter 18, Page 301 (Paperback Edition)

This suggests that a person could reasonably expect to live their entire life without ever once experiencing a Desolation, which fits the minimum amount of time I posited before--about a century (though I suspect that the interval was often significantly longer). 

Therefore, Harkaylain--who has gained a reputation for successfully predicting Desolations enough times to be known for usually being correct--must be centuries old, if not millennia, in order to have a number of positive results sufficient for that purpose, and in the context of that quote he is fairly strongly implied to be a Radiant himself. 

There are a number of other, unknown factors that could contribute to this quote, such as Harkaylain being an Aimian (strongly suspected of being immortal as a race), but overall I find it more compelling to believe that the KR as a whole gain significant life extension. After all, by forming the Nahel bond, the spren seek to emulate the Heralds; we know this happens with Blade and with Surges, so stretching that to accommodate 'lifespan' does not seem infeasible to me. Likewise, it would fit with Lift's request--in this way, her boon would be to become a Radiant herself, which, though she probably did not expect it, would nonetheless fulfill her wish, as well as explain Wyndle's confusion as to why she was selected over the other candidates for Radianthood: Because it was the most expedient and in line with Cultivation's goals manner of granting her boon.

 

 

If there is anything glaring I have overlooked, or a flaw in my reasoning, I would be glad to be notified of it; I figure this is likely so, as it seems that if it were this simple many of you would have already reached the same conclusion as I--that Radiants are granted a significant life extension, if not true immortality from their bond--but perhaps it has merely been overlooked.

 

 

Edited August 1, 2016 by Three1415

[dvoraen]

I will have to digest the rest some more before I commit to a formal response to the idea of enhanced lifespans - currently I'm sitting at "maybe" - but I do agree with your point about Lift and her Cognitive aspect.  I think that she got what she asked for, but the only way for the Nightwatcher to carry out the request was to 'save state' her Cognitive self by having it take greater hold over her, which is why she can touch spren directly as a result of it; Lift is an above-average Cognitive being, in other words (compared to normal humans and maybe even Elsecallers, Lightweavers and Willshapers).  I wouldn't be surprised if she had an extended lifespan, simply because her Physical attributes were adjusted to make room for the increase in the Cognitive.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

I see how you're interpreting this, but the sentence in the initial flashback you quoted doesn't have to imply a millennial old or even immortal KR.  The sentence is two separate things and could be read like this: "Harkaylain is predicting a Desolation, and Harkaylain is not often wrong. Therefore his prediction is likely correct". They aren't necessarily tied together, one is evidence for the other. Harkaylain predicts many things and they are often right, so if he's predicting a desolation, it must be coming, not that Harkaylain has predicted Desolations before. 

I don't doubt that KR, so long as they are holding Stormlight, experience some benefits towards longevity/lifespan. Much the same way that on Nalthis, the more Breath you have, the closer to immortal you become, but like Nalthis, it's going to be the Stormlight granting the increased life, not the Nahel bond itself, just the investiture of Stormlight or Breaths. 

My guess, based on the amount of Investiture touted as being on Roshar vs other planets, that Stormlight can have dramatic effects on lifespan... if you can keep and hold enough of it over a long enough period of time. 

[Argel he/him]

Lift Novella exceprt from newsletter Spoiler

Spoiler

We know from the excerpt in the newsletter for Lift's novella that she has started having a period (well, it's not spelled out, but it's pretty obvious given the context). So the speculation is she is still like a kid mentally but her body is still aging.

 

Edited August 1, 2016 by Argel

[Oversleep]

Or simply Harkaylain is a Truthwatcher and when they predict something, they are not often wrong.

Perhaps Radiants do not age while holding Stormlight, so if they do that often they have a longer lifespan than normal people, but to be truly ageless they would need to hold it at all times and that is simply impossible.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Oversleep

[CalaCrisp88]

12 hours ago, Three1415 said:

 

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She wished to "remain the same as the world changed around her."

This sparked significant discussion as to whether she would receive as her boon an extended lifespan, or whether her cognitive aspect had simply been frozen in the state it was in as she made that request.

Didn't she say she'd been 10 years old for 3 years or something? Maybe that was when she got cognitive frozen or whatever

[BeskarKomrk he/him]

@Three1415 could you run through your reasoning for how long it is between Desolations? This is something I've been thinking about and I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

16 hours ago, Three1415 said:

"Harkaylain says the Desolation is close, and he is not often wrong.

15 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

I see how you're interpreting this, but the sentence in the initial flashback you quoted doesn't have to imply a millennial old or even immortal KR.  The sentence is two separate things and could be read like this: "Harkaylain is predicting a Desolation, and Harkaylain is not often wrong. Therefore his prediction is likely correct". They aren't necessarily tied together, one is evidence for the other. Harkaylain predicts many things and they are often right, so if he's predicting a desolation, it must be coming, not that Harkaylain has predicted Desolations before. 

Green Hoodie and I agree on how this line is interpreted. Harkaylain is reliable in all other things he has predicted so if he is now predicting a highstorm then he is, most likely, still reliable.

 

3 hours ago, 8giraffe8 said:

Didn't she say she'd been 10 years old for 3 years or something? Maybe that was when she got cognitive frozen or whatever

I think this is an example of what some people refer to as "humor". The joke is that Lift does not have an education and has trouble counting. She only has ten (10) fingers so she cannot express her thirteen (13) years of age anymore. She also refers to any age higher than the number of fingers as "unlucky" so she is deliberately choosing to maintain the fiction that she is ten (10).

[Argel he/him]

3 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

I think this is an example of what some people refer to as "humor". The joke is that Lift does not have an education and has trouble counting. She only has ten (10) fingers so she cannot express her thirteen (13) years of age anymore. She also refers to any age higher than the number of fingers as "unlucky" so she is deliberately choosing to maintain the fiction that she is ten (10).

I think she saw the Nightwatcher three years ago. Still works as a joke though (just for different reasons).

[Radiant Returned he/him]

We know from other worlds that Investiture can make you immortal age-wise (compounding in Scadrial, achieving the 5th Heightening on Nalthis, possibly being an Elantrian on Sel) so it's not a stretch to think there is a way with Stormlight to achieve agelessness. I don't think it applies to all Radiants and/or I don't think it is complete agelessness, because otherwise we'd have a lot of Radiants still around even if they weren't in power. But it's certainly possible. 

[Three1415]

On 8/1/2016 at 2:18 AM, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

 

I see how you're interpreting this, but the sentence in the initial flashback you quoted doesn't have to imply a millennial old or even immortal KR.  The sentence is two separate things and could be read like this: "Harkaylain is predicting a Desolation, and Harkaylain is not often wrong. Therefore his prediction is likely correct".

 

Ah, you make an excellent point. I am prone to jumping to conclusions, I fear, and I completely missed the alternate and probably more rational explanation for that quote. 

 

5 hours ago, Radiant Returned said:

I don't think it applies to all Radiants and/or I don't think it is complete agelessness, because otherwise we'd have a lot of Radiants still around even if they weren't in power. But it's certainly possible. 

The agelessness, if it exists, would probably be lost with the breaking of one's oaths, but in any event the Heralds themselves are still around and no one realizes it, so it's not inconceivable that, even if immortality were retained, the former Radiants would still be in hiding. But as per Green Hoodie Mistborn's comment, it is far less likely this theory is viable anyway.

[Darkness he/him]

6 hours ago, Radiant Returned said:

We know from other worlds that Investiture can make you immortal age-wise (compounding in Scadrial, achieving the 5th Heightening on Nalthis, possibly being an Elantrian on Sel) so it's not a stretch to think there is a way with Stormlight to achieve agelessness. I don't think it applies to all Radiants and/or I don't think it is complete agelessness, because otherwise we'd have a lot of Radiants still around even if they weren't in power. But it's certainly possible. 

It is interesting to consider that Lift subconsciously converts food into Stormlight now. Perhaps her body will automatically synthesize the power it needs to stay young (even the God-King's of Nalthis would age to maturity, and then stop). That would make Lift functionally immortal for as long as she has food.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

IIRC, there was a WoB around about Radiants and immortality but it was RAFO'd. There was also another that speculated if Nohadon was still around (I think it was proposed that he was a Bondsmith) to which Brandon got very coy. I think on theoryland

[Killik he/him]

Quote

"This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine."

This epigraph from WoR says one of the orders of the Knights did not participate in the Recreance.  I think the fact that "much of the membership" was destroyed is why we dont see a lot of Knights running around still.  The agelessness theory fits in with the rest of the Cosmere magic systems too well to not be in the Roshar system.

Presumably the 10th order could still be alive with whatever this process of agelessness is.  As AnanasSpren said, Brandon got coy about it being the Bondsmiths and possibly Nohadon being alive.  I think this fits better than most as it would be easier to hide at most 3 Knights for so long than another entire order.

[Yata he/him]

37 minutes ago, Killik said:

Presumably the 10th order could still be alive with whatever this process of agelessness is.  As AnanasSpren said, Brandon got coy about it being the Bondsmiths and possibly Nohadon being alive.  I think this fits better than most as it would be easier to hide at most 3 Knights for so long than another entire order.

But we know the Stormfather suffered Oathbreaking (and survived) in the past... Therefore the Bondsmith is one of the Order we know for sure to break their Oaths in the Recreance.

[Killik he/him]

27 minutes ago, Yata said:

But we know the Stormfather suffered Oathbreaking (and survived) in the past... Therefore the Bondsmith is one of the Order we know for sure to break their Oaths in the Recreance.

I remember Pattern saying the Stormfather survived the Recreance.  But I can't find it currently nor do I remember it exactly.  Does it say someplace that he was bonded?

This certainly implies he was in danger but does not prove he was bonded.  And if some theories are correct that the Recreance was a direct result of Honor being killed by Odium, then the Stormfather would not have been created until that point as he is a splinter.  He describes himself as " the memory men create for him, now that he is gone."  That assumes that Honor did not create the splinter before he died.

[Yata he/him]

@Killik

It said that the Stormfather survived the Recreance and He is now Broken (well until he began his new Bond)... This seems to push to "a Bondsmith broke his Oaths and nearly killed the Stormfather but he survived" also because if the Bondsmith kept their Oaths and the Nahel Bond give immortality... The Stormfather would be still bonded with his Knight.

Another thing (not stricty related to the topic), Honor died after the Recreance, like the Dalinar's Vision prove it (The Recreance is part of Honor's memory)

[Jondesu he/him]

1 minute ago, Yata said:

@Killik

It said that the Stormfather survived the Recreance and He is now Broken (well until he began his new Bond)... This seems to push to "a Bondsmith broke his Oaths and nearly killed the Stormfather but he survived" also because if the Bondsmith kept their Oaths and the Nahel Bond give immortality... The Stormfather would be still bonded with his Knight.

Another thing (not stricty related to the topic), Honor died after the Recreance, like the Dalinar's Vision prove it (The Recreance is part of Honor's memory)

There's a lot we don't know about the Stormfather, however, and the Rider of the Storms as the Parshendi call him (who was almost certainly around before Honor's splintering, even though we believe the Stormfather was the result of the merging of Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow with the Rider of the Storms, although that's admittedly not confirmed yet).  We don't know if he was broken because he was bonded and a Bondsmith broke his oaths (or if the Bondsmiths previously bonded with the Stormfather anyways, or if Dalinar did something new), or because he seems to be in control of at least some of the Radiantspren (perhaps as a remnant of Honor?).  We know he was at least partially responsible for holding Syl back from Kaladin after he broke his oaths, and was opposed to her bonding him originally.  It's possible he is broken because he's the remnant of Honor/Tanavast, who was broken in the splintering, and it wasn't just the Recreance (or even that at all), which may or may not have been related to the splintering of Honor, and certainly seems to have happened before as you mentioned.

jW