Elhokars Fate

[Toaster Retribution]

So, how will this guy end up? Assassinated like his father? Dead in battle? Becoming a better king? Or something else. Share your thoughts!

[Eki]

Hard to say. He seems to have been seeing the same kind of spren (either that or he's really hallucinating) as Shallan did, so he might become a Lightweaver. But then, will he have time to be king as well?

I think he's on his way to becoming a better person, regardless. Good for him!

[maxal]

I think he is on his way to be played with by Odium: he has the right profile. Just like Lin Davar, he isn't a bad person nor is he ill-meaning, but he is horribly focused on himself. Just as Odium played with Lin's ambition to twist him into his pawn, I think he would be wise to play with Elhokar's desire for fame against him. All in all, Elhokar may have admitted he wasn't a good king, but his entire journey is terribly self-focused: he wants the people to honor him. It is all about him and none about the kingdom he is supposed to rule which is why the last arc I want for him is Radiant. Quite frankly, the man doesn't have what it take to be a Radiant, he isn't capable to think outside his own person nor is he willing to use his strength for the benefit of others: he just wants to use it to make his name shine more.

Radiants should have goals which are greater than themselves, they should strive to make the world a better place by protecting the weak, guiding the misguided, creating alternate life capable of becoming truths, etc. They shouldn't want power just so people could think better of them. 

This being said, everyone can change but such a drastic change in Elhokar would require some serious writing, a dedicated arc as huge as Kaladin's arc in book 2 in order to make it plausible. Just giving a spren to Elhokar without bringing forth why it is he even deserves it, after reading being selfish, selfish and more selfish just does not work out.

Also, Elhokar becoming a better king also is implausible. People just don't learn how to be a leader simply after spending a few days with a Herdazian family nor do they magically acquire skills simply for having talked to someone. It demands time and personal investment which I doubt Elhokar can/want/would. There is also the fact not everyone is capable of leadership and it strikes to me Elhokar just isn't the right person to lead.

Therefore, the most interesting arc, for me, is the Odium one because it is more dramatic. The second interesting arc is him stepping down and taking a more laid-back role through which he excels. The least interesting arcs are him becoming a good king and/or a Radiant, in this order.

[Erklitt]

I'm not sure: everything @maxal writes has value, and yet I don't agree. I think that with his 'Can you teach me' arc (as brought up by another sharder recently (just checked: it was @spacenoxx)) he uttered a really powerful truth. And I do believe he's an artist at heart: any room under his influence tends to be something special, whether it is his palace (embellished by frescoes etc.), his feasting grounds (notice the water with the platforms, bridges and boats with glowing spheres of colors matching the current moon) or even something as utilitarian as the Gallery of Maps. Add the cryptics he's seen and all points toward Lightweaver.

I agree he has very far to go. Well, that just makes for a more interesting character arc. Though I am far from certain, I do hope, and to some degree believe, that we will see it.

[Edit] And I really think this would add to the books: not all Radiants are 'natural born heroes'. The struggles of someone like Elhokar with the ideals of self-aware truths would be really something worth to see.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Erklitt

[maxal]

8 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

I'm not sure: everything @maxal writes has value, and yet I don't agree. I think that with his 'Can you teach me' arc (as brought up by another sharder recently (just checked: it was @spacenoxx)) he uttered a really powerful truth. And I do believe he's an artist at heart: any room under his influence tends to be something special, whether it is his palace (embellished by frescoes etc.), his feasting grounds (notice the water with the platforms, bridges and boats with glowing spheres of colors matching the current moon) or even something as utilitarian as the Gallery of Maps. Add the cryptics he's seen and all points toward Lightweaver.

I agree he has very far to go. Well, that just makes for a more interesting character arc. Though I am far from certain, I do hope, and to some degree believe, that we will see it.

[Edit] And I really think this would add to the books: not all Radiants are 'natural born heroes'. The struggles of someone like Elhokar with the ideals of self-aware truths would be really something worth to see.

I guess my point is while what you say also has value and I don't, technically, disagree with you, but I have to point out the fact the Stormlight Archive structure does not allow for Elhokar to have the kind of development he would need for this arc to be plausible. It simply isn't something you can show through the 3rd person's POV with 3 or 4 mentions scattered across a 1000 pages: it would require the author to be dedicated to further develop Elhokar. As it happens, he isn't one of the chosen main protagonists which means the only development he'll get is the one serving the major story arc.

Therefore, since Elhokar does not have the luxury of a deep plot, he remains a very minors, mostly unlikable, character. He makes people rooting for him very difficult: to change this perspective efficiently, you would need to spend time on the character. Will Brandon manage to make a 180 with Elhokar? I do not know, I guess he could if he would, but if you ask me personally, it isn't something I personally yearn to read. I already have minor arcs to root for: therefore since I have to choose, I am not choosing Elhokar.

I also don't particularly enjoy "kings related" arcs, but this is purely personal.

Your millage may vary, of course. 

[Rasarr]

I have to disagree with you, @maxal (also, I warn you in advance that Elhokar is my favourite character in SA, so I'm sorry if I say something impolite without realizing this). Elhokar does have makings of a future good king - perhaps not a brilliant one, but certainly not a disaster you seem to be painting him as. He does demonstrate insight and intelligence - consider his response to Dalinar explaining why moving out of Shattered Plains is a better option, or his reaction to Sadeas trying to goad Dalinar into getting into duelling pit in 4v1. It's also incorrect to say that his character development didn't start yet - it does at the very same duel, when he storms up big time with his handling of Kaladin/Amaram situation. Considering how he approaches Kaladin to ask whether he's a good king, and his calm reaction to the negative answer, indicates that there's been quite a lot going on in his head following that day. The fact that we don't see characters' arcs in full doesn't have to stop them from having character arcs.

Elhokar seems to be extremely aware of his own shortcomings - he notes that nobility doesn't respect him, he want to be taught how to be a good leader, and his reaction to Kaladin's words suggests to me that rather than a world-shattering revelation, the "no" was more of an external confirmation of what he had already known. The main problem is, a lot of his issues stem from the situation and environment he's found himself in: he is, basically, a regular - a tad above regular, if we're feeling charitable - person among living legends. His uncle is the Blackhorn; his cousin in the greatest duellist of his times; his sister is a highly respected scholar; his father was a brilliant king. In many ways, his situation is similar to that of Renarin, but the problem is, (1), Elhokar doesn't have his Adolin - someone to protect him, to confide in, to help - and (2), Renarin is only the second son, while Elokhar has been thrust into position of highest authority in highly nonregular circumstances. Alethkar is a newborn country. Imagine riding a carriage at high speed when the driver suddenly throws the reins in your general direction and jumps off. Add to that the fact that Gavilar likely didn't train Elhokar all that much in the ways of rulership and Dalinar trying to shield him from everything, and you have a king who's never had a chance to properly learn to be a king, but is nevertheless expected to stay on top of the foodchain among people with far more years and experience to their name. Yes, on a first sight he is unlikeable, and I don't disagree in that he's self-centered paranoiac and not some perfect victimized cinnamon roll, but the deck has been stacked against him so much, it outright encourages him to perpetuate those negative traits in himself. 

I don't think there's the need to make a full 180 with Elhokar; to misapply the metaphor a bit, I don't think he needs much than 45 degrees turn. You have argued in the past that Adolin can have a solid character arc without being a flashback character - I think Elhokar can, too (even though he is much more of a minor character). I'm with Erklitt on this one in that he has makings of a future Lightweaver (an ability that could be put to great use by a leader), and that his struggles to overcome his own problems would be fascinating to watch, even from a distance. He wants to be a great leader. Losing some of that self-centredness (?) of his is certainly part of that. 

Now, coming back for a moment to original post, I foresee with my nonexistent Truthwatcher powers that he'll come in conflict with Dalinar. He wants to be a respected king, therefore he has to take control of his own nation - and that means wrestling it from the man who, quite frankly, did a military putsch and became the effective head of state. Dalinar, who has some control freak tendencies, is unlikely to relinquish Alethkar's reins of his own free will, so I think (read: hope) Elhokar will figure more prominently in Oathbringer, and both characters' development will benefit from one another.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Rasarr
And yet I cannot get his name right. Well, at least I get points for consistency.

[Argel]

Don't forget where Kaladin hid him at the end of WoR. He ate the soup without much complaining at all. There have certainly been signs of humility and it feels like Brandon has been foreshadowing Lightweaver for some time. The only mark against that is maybe it's too obvious. But being part of an organization like the KRs instead of thrust into the weak ruler role could benefit him. Maybe he could he even make a real friend.

I will be curious to see what he makes of events in Kholinar.

[Sam Script]

Oh my this thread is so tense...

I think all we are sometimes Elhokar. None of us is perfect, yet maybe others see as perfect, but we can always find our own flaws and wanna improve it.

That "Can you teach me?" is really a touching plot for many readers, enough to symbolize WoR itself.

I used to dislike Elhokar as well, nonetheless, images of characters do change. I'm looking forward to seeing his growing-up in future SA, even though it might not be much helpful on main mission of fighting Odium.

But that's the essence of Fantasy right? To see the glow and flaw of humanity in fictional characters, and to reflect ourselves on them.

Everyone can find something they want in the stories. Hoid said.

Btw so glad to see someone using term Cryptic. Stop calling them "Liespren" or "Truthspren" please XD

[maxal]

3 hours ago, Rasarr said:

I have to disagree with you, @maxal (also, I warn you in advance that Elhokar is my favourite character in SA, so I'm sorry if I say something impolite without realizing this). Elhokar does have makings of a future good king - perhaps not a brilliant one, but certainly not a disaster you seem to be painting him as. He does demonstrate insight and intelligence - consider his response to Dalinar explaining why moving out of Shattered Plains is a better option, or his reaction to Sadeas trying to goad Dalinar into getting into duelling pit in 4v1. It's also incorrect to say that his character development didn't start yet - it does at the very same duel, when he storms up big time with his handling of Kaladin/Amaram situation. Considering how he approaches Kaladin to ask whether he's a good king, and his calm reaction to the negative answer, indicates that there's been quite a lot going on in his head following that day. The fact that we don't see characters' arcs in full doesn't have to stop them from having character arcs.

Elhokar seems to be extremely aware of his own shortcomings - he notes that nobility doesn't respect him, he want to be taught how to be a good leader, and his reaction to Kaladin's words suggests to me that rather than a world-shattering revelation, the "no" was more of an external confirmation of what he had already known. The main problem is, a lot of his issues stem from the situation and environment he's found himself in: he is, basically, a regular - a tad above regular, if we're feeling charitable - person among living legends. His uncle is the Blackhorn; his cousin in the greatest duellist of his times; his sister is a highly respected scholar; his father was a brilliant king. In many ways, his situation is similar to that of Renarin, but the problem is, (1), Elhokar doesn't have his Adolin - someone to protect him, to confide in, to help - and (2), Renarin is only the second son, while Elokhar has been thrust into position of highest authority in highly nonregular circumstances. Alethkar is a newborn country. Imagine riding a carriage at high speed when the driver suddenly throws the reins in your general direction and jumps off. Add to that the fact that Gavilar likely didn't train Elhokar all that much in the ways of rulership and Dalinar trying to shield him from everything, and you have a king who's never had a chance to properly learn to be a king, but is nevertheless expected to stay on top of the foodchain among people with far more years and experience to their name. Yes, on a first sight he is unlikeable, and I don't disagree in that he's self-centered paranoiac and not some perfect victimized cinnamon roll, but the deck has been stacked against him so much, it outright encourages him to perpetuate those negative traits in himself. 

I don't think there's the need to make a full 180 with Elhokar; to misapply the metaphor a bit, I don't think he needs much than 45 degrees turn. You have argued in the past that Adolin can have a solid character arc without being a flashback character - I think Elhokar can, too (even though he is much more of a minor character). I'm with Erklitt on this one in that he has makings of a future Lightweaver (an ability that could be put to great use by a leader), and that his struggles to overcome his own problems would be fascinating to watch, even from a distance. He wants to be a great leader. Losing some of that self-centredness (?) of his is certainly part of that. 

Now, coming back for a moment to original post, I foresee with my nonexistent Truthwatcher powers that he'll come in conflict with Dalinar. He wants to be a respected king, therefore he has to take control of his own nation - and that means wrestling it from the man who, quite frankly, did a military putsch and became the effective head of state. Dalinar, who has some control freak tendencies, is unlikely to relinquish Alethkar's reins of his own free will, so I think (read: hope) Elhokar will figure more prominently in Oathbringer, and both characters' development will benefit from one another.

Unfortunately, you may be facing an unexpected and rather unusual task for a discussion related to a fantasy book. In order to embark me within your speculation character arc, you first need to change how I feel about him, which isn't an easy task. I hear your arguments, they are very valid ones, but... I have a hard time changing how I feel about it.

Truth is I do not like Elhokar nor do I find him endearing. This being said, he has qualities. As you mentioned, he is more politically astute than Dalinar, he does understand the game and he is the first to spot the dangerous predicament his uncle has put himself into. He was right at the 4 on 1 duel, this is true, but still his lack of empathy towards his cousin made me dislike him even more. Politically, it was the right decision and Elhokar was right to state it, but morally it was wrong, oh so very wrong and Elhokar knows this. He is many things, but he isn't a fool: he knows allowing Adolin to be beaten to death was not the right choice. It was the choice of a coward which is why Kaladin stepping in ultimately triggered his beserk button. It could have been him: he could have stopped the butchery, but he didn't. So there was the duality within Elhokar: the knowledge to take the right political decision, but the desire to take the more heroic path combined with the anger at not being capable of walking it. So thus, I hated Elhokar for the 4 on 1 duel. Adolin's life should have mattered more.

Therefore, the problem is every quality I witness into him are severely offset by negative traits or flaws but none are depicted in a way which made me emphasize with the character. As a result, I have a hard time wanting to read an great character arc about him. You are right in stating not being a front runner does not prevent anyone from having an arc. My problem is, in order to change my perception of Elhokar, I would need a much larger arc, something equivalent to a strong tertiary character or a secondary one which we know we aren't getting in book 3.

I am thus stuck with an impossible problem: fighting against the negative feelings I have towards Elhokar. I also need to fight against my personal lack of interest for kings as characters (they tend to be too political characters for my personal taste, but it may also be I simply haven't read any which were good) and I need to fight for my preference for Adolin. In my mind, Elhokar earning a fully developed character arc where he becomes a Radiant reduces the chances of Adolin getting his own arc which I would personally prefer.

All in all, above every argument, there are feelings and since those feelings tend to be more negative then positive, they make me prefer the speculative arc where Elhokar becomes a pawn for Odium. Of course, personal image of characters can certainly evolve and change, just as feelings can change, but it is a tough sell, currently. Argument wise, Elhokar will probably become a Lightweaver and a good king, preference wise, I really like the evil Elhokar speculative arc.

[Yata]

I think that Elhokar is (like possibly other Roshar's rulers) a Cryptic's investiment. They observe him and search clues of Lightweaver's potential. Also if he will not be capable of became a great KR sending to him a Spren would probably improve him as a rulers (through the Truth and personal introspection), create a pro-radiant ruler and improved the Human Leadership for the future wars aganist Odium/Unmade/Voidbringer.

I see this as a plan for Roshar's mankind improvement, putting a Cryptic in strategic position... Of course there is some risk but the reward is worthy

[Rasarr]

@Yata, that's a really great idea, especially considering how Cryptics are the nobility of the sprenkind. They probably would try to get themselves into position where they could influence the nobility of humankind. 

@maxal, I do not claim, and frankly don't hope, that I'm able to change your perception of Elhokar - I'm just not that good of a writer, really, to change anyone's mind. I also don't think he'll get a grand arc to himself, and certainly not as big one as Adolin is likely to get (I personally hope that both Kholin non-Radiants could get their Radianthood arcs), but I do hope that Elhokar's character arc would be running parallel to Dalinar's, with both playing off each other, like I've mentioned at the end of my last post. As a supporting character to Dalinar, Elhokar could go a long way.

As for the scene at the duel, the thing is, Elhokar has to be a politician. Dalinar the Blackhorn can rage and call for the viewers to help, but Elhokar has to be the calm one, because someone has to be the calm one. From in-universe perspective, the Kholins cannot lose those three (or was it four, at this point?) sets of Shards. While I like Adolin, and he is an excellent commander and fighter, I would argue that from in-universe perspective, his capablity to walk is not more important than 3% of entire world's Shardsets. Even if this is arguable, Elhokar also has to consider the fact that Dalinar is not actually replaceable, or at least - and I don't want this to sound callous (though it probably will) - not as replaceable as Adolin is. If Dalinar jumped into the arena, he'd be mobbed and killed, because, quite frankly, if Adolin can't handle four Shardbearers while in full Plate, Dalinar sure cannot without it. 

Elhokar is, at that moment, clearly the only Kholin with capability for logical reasoning. You've noticed yourself that he's jealous of Kaladin (and likely Dalinar to some extent). I suspect he would like nothing more than to heroically jump into the arena himself and rescue Adolin, winning respect of everyone he wants respect from in the process. However, as a king, he has responsibilities. He cannot let himself die and he has to keep up the appearance of an independent judge, beause he's the king, and has to keep his highprinces under control; he cannot let Dalinar die; he cannot let the Kholins lose all their Shards and hence cannot stop the duel. So I would argue that letting the duel continue was absolutely the right choice. 

Elhokar's "external" problems can't be punched or scienced into submission, and while he is aware of that, he clearly wishes he could punch his problems into submission, because that would win him respect he so craves. And so he fights himself every step of the way.

Edit: I have to say, I'm not very fond of Elhokar turning to Odium. For me, it'd cheapen his character, demoting him from a complete person to a "bad king who has to be put down for the good of the nation" archetype.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Rasarr

[maxal]

2 hours ago, Rasarr said:

@Yata, that's a really great idea, especially considering how Cryptics are the nobility of the sprenkind. They probably would try to get themselves into position where they could influence the nobility of humankind. 

@maxal, I do not claim, and frankly don't hope, that I'm able to change your perception of Elhokar - I'm just not that good of a writer, really, to change anyone's mind. I also don't think he'll get a grand arc to himself, and certainly not as big one as Adolin is likely to get (I personally hope that both Kholin non-Radiants could get their Radianthood arcs), but I do hope that Elhokar's character arc would be running parallel to Dalinar's, with both playing off each other, like I've mentioned at the end of my last post. As a supporting character to Dalinar, Elhokar could go a long way.

As for the scene at the duel, the thing is, Elhokar has to be a politician. Dalinar the Blackhorn can rage and call for the viewers to help, but Elhokar has to be the calm one, because someone has to be the calm one. From in-universe perspective, the Kholins cannot lose those three (or was it four, at this point?) sets of Shards. While I like Adolin, and he is an excellent commander and fighter, I would argue that from in-universe perspective, his capablity to walk is not more important than 3% of entire world's Shardsets. Even if this is arguable, Elhokar also has to consider the fact that Dalinar is not actually replaceable, or at least - and I don't want this to sound callous (though it probably will) - not as replaceable as Adolin is. If Dalinar jumped into the arena, he'd be mobbed and killed, because, quite frankly, if Adolin can't handle four Shardbearers while in full Plate, Dalinar sure cannot without it. 

Elhokar is, at that moment, clearly the only Kholin with capability for logical reasoning. You've noticed yourself that he's jealous of Kaladin (and likely Dalinar to some extent). I suspect he would like nothing more than to heroically jump into the arena himself and rescue Adolin, winning respect of everyone he wants respect from in the process. However, as a king, he has responsibilities. He cannot let himself die and he has to keep up the appearance of an independent judge, beause he's the king, and has to keep his highprinces under control; he cannot let Dalinar die; he cannot let the Kholins lose all their Shards and hence cannot stop the duel. So I would argue that letting the duel continue was absolutely the right choice. 

Elhokar's "external" problems can't be punched or scienced into submission, and while he is aware of that, he clearly wishes he could punch his problems into submission, because that would win him respect he so craves. And so he fights himself every step of the way.

Edit: I have to say, I'm not very fond of Elhokar turning to Odium. For me, it'd cheapen his character, demoting him from a complete person to a "bad king who has to be put down for the good of the nation" archetype.

Anyone' mind can change, mine included: the key to playing with my mind is to toy with my feelings. You are absolutely right: both non-Radiant Kholins each deserve their own arcs and each deserve the chance to walk onto their respective journey. I have to admit the speculative story arc where Elhokar finds his Radiant power thus making Adolin the only non-Radiant Kholin does have its appeal... as Adolin isn't very supportive of Elhokar. To see someone he doesn't think much of being deemed worthy of becoming a Radiant, to be chosen while nobody chooses him, be it sprens or friends or women could create a quite interesting arc for him. Unfortunately, I keep thinking it is either one of the other: not all Kholin can be Radiants, at least one has to be left behind. If it is Adolin, then he is probably going to end up on the throne and huh this may be my least favorite arc. As I say, I dislike reading about characters who become kings: kings either are very minor characters or boring one. 

Can a Radiant be king? Would Elhokar the Radiant be forced to forfeit the throne?

As for the duel, yes you are right. Elhokar had to remain an impartial judge, he had to remain calm and he couldn't afford to watch Dalinar waste his life to protect Adolin. And yes, Adolin may be the Golden Boy of the family, he is least valuable than Dalinar or Shards: new soldiers can always be found to carry on Shards and dueling talent are not required to be a good field commander. In this optic, yes Adolin is completely inter-changeable. This being said, there is a reason why the readers do not root for Elhokar in this scene, instead preferring to root for Kaladin. The right political choice often doesn't make for a satisfying climax: having Elhokar and Dalinar calmly watch Adolin being beaten bloody to near death wouldn't have been satisfying unless the readers truly believed there was no other choice. Hence, Kaladin being heroic, jumping into the arena, not knowing if he could change the course of the fight, not knowing if he could survive (alright, he probably didn't fear much for his life, but still, it could have turned bad quickly) draws readers in more readily than Elhokar being right about the consequences of jumping in. It was the right choice for him to make, but people rarely root for the right logical choice. Elhokar knows this and wish he could be Kaladin, the one who saves the day, but you are right. Had he intervene, he would have been accused to show preferences towards his cousin. It makes me feel ill to think rulers, on Alethkar, aren't allowed to try to protect their own family members.... It seems wrong, oh so wrong.

Could Elhokar end up playing Dalinar's character development? Maybe. After all, Elhokar has always been part of the story. The initial draft of Dalinar had him have a nephew, but no sons. The sons came later. I had always thought Adolin would be the one to keep on playing Dalinar's character development as he seemed doomed to forever be a foil. With Adolin, Dalinar has the son he wished he had been, the one he has groomed to be the man he wished he was. With Elhokar, he has the living embodiment of his love for his brother, because he failed his brother, he is willing to do anything for Elhokar. It is quite a parallel: his past made him go too hard on his own son, but too lenient on his nephew. Can Dalinar learn the right balance or will something terrible happen to one of them for him to realize this?

As for Elhokar becoming evil, well yeah. It may be a tad force, I'll admit, but someone has to become an antagonist... We have almost no evil guys! We had Szeth, but he is on his way to become a Radiant now. We had Sadeas, but he is dead. We had Moash, but everyone roots for a redemption arc. We had Eshonai, but turns out it isn't really her fault and she is becoming a Radiant as well. Gee, we need someone to oppose our heroes.

 

[Erklitt]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

[...]

As for Elhokar becoming evil, well yeah. It may be a tad force, I'll admit, but someone has to become an antagonist... We have almost no evil guys! We had Szeth, but he is on his way to become a Radiant now. We had Sadeas, but he is dead. We had Moash, but everyone roots for a redemption arc. We had Eshonai, but turns out it isn't really her fault and she is becoming a Radiant as well. Gee, we need someone to oppose our heroes.

Just a timid hand raise here: not everyone roots for Moash to be redeemed. I don't. I never liked him. Not because he opposed Kaladin at first - Sigzil did the same, and I can even find some sympathy for Gaz in my heart. But Moash was always too eager about fighting and about having Shards, and his hatred of lighteyes feels much more spiteful to me than Kaladin's. He always struck me as someone who, when faced with a difficult choice, would choose his own advantage over loyalty. I have no strong evidence of this (other then the one big betrayal), but there were many little things like this:

WoR Ch. 44 One Form of Justice

Quote

Zahel removed his hand and gestured. Teft reached out to touch the Shardblade, but Moash seized the thing first, taking it by the hilt and yanking it - too hard - out of the ground.

Sorry, this was a little off topic.

But as for bad guys, I am not aware of any shortage: apart from Moash, there are Amaram and the Sons of Honor (nice band name), Taravangian, Mraize and the Ghostbloods (another nice band name), a few crazy heralds with Nalan in the front row...

[maxal]

5 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

Just a timid hand raise here: not everyone roots for Moash to be redeemed. I don't. I never liked him. Not because he opposed Kaladin at first - Sigzil did the same, and I can even find some sympathy for Gaz in my heart. But Moash was always too eager about fighting and about having Shards, and his hatred of lighteyes feels much more spiteful to me than Kaladin's. He always struck me as someone who, when faced with a difficult choice, would choose his own advantage over loyalty. I have no strong evidence of this (other then the one big betrayal), but there were many little things like this:

WoR Ch. 44 One Form of Justice

Sorry, this was a little off topic.

But as for bad guys, I am not aware of any shortage: apart from Moash, there are Amaram and the Sons of Honor (nice band name), Taravangian, Mraize and the Ghostbloods (another nice band name), a few crazy heralds with Nalan in the front row...

Well of course not everyone is rooting for a Moash redemption: I am certainly not rooting for it, even worst I am not rooting for Szeth to become a Radiant as I have no sympathy for his plight. I agree Moash is too far gone for a redemption, but then again, if I base myself on my readings across the fandom, I'd say we are in the minority here. The fact is most readers root for a Moash redemption. I have long since accepted I was the odd one out with my preferences. Thus I am faced with a hard pill to swallow: I am not emotionally engaged with any of the foreseen major protagonists into a series I have come to love, but this is beyond the point.

For the rest, Amaram certainly is a bad guy, but he is only one person. Taravangian also is, though many argue he will become a Radiant as well. What Mraize status is remains unknown: he may not be a bad guy.

I just find there are probably too many redemption arcs. 

[WayneSpren]

I'd really like Elhokar to be a main PoV character in the "back half" of Stormlight. I don't know what type he would be, though. Maybe...Willshaper?

32 minutes ago, maxal said:

For the rest, Amaram certainly is a bad guy, but he is only one person. Taravangian also is, though many argue he will become a Radiant as well. 

@maxal, I'd like to see the theory that puts Taravangian as a Radiant. Could you point me there?

[maxal]

40 minutes ago, WayneSpren said:

I'd really like Elhokar to be a main PoV character in the "back half" of Stormlight. I don't know what type he would be, though. Maybe...Willshaper?

@maxal, I'd like to see the theory that puts Taravangian as a Radiant. Could you point me there?

Unfortunately, the main POV characters for the second half are: Taln, Shalash, Jasnah, Renarin and Lift. Elhokar, if he is still around, can only aspire to a tertiary character role as I assume those could be filled by practically anyone. This being said, Brandon also said those who are still alive, among the first five main characters, will still be around. It is thus safe to assume the tertiary characters in the second half will be filled by either Shallan, Kaladin, Szeth, Dalinar or Eshonai.

I personally find it slightly disheartening to read the future of SA rest on the shoulders of characters I don't currently feel much for. While I'll admit the flashbacks from the Heralds are going to be very interesting, I'd rather take someone else to carry on the main narrative. I am not fond of God-like characters, but I have yet to read it. If someone can change my mind about characters, it sure is Brandon. Still. Stormlight Archive has put me into a very difficult position. I personally wish characters who aren't scheduled to have flashbacks could be allowed to have their own time into the spotlight, but the author has closed the door on this which means the only ones getting full blown character arcs are the announced 10. Anyone else has to content itself with a smaller arc, existing only to promote the arcs of the main. In other words, while Kaladin's character development is the main narrative, Elhokar (or Adolin)'s character development is a foil to them. We get it only if it is relevant to others. Sad but true: I wish the author would dismantle this line of thought, but every single one of his updates has only served to confirm it. Therefore, tertiary characters not getting flashbacks (Adolin and Navani currently are the only ones in this position right now) or minor characters (such as Elhokar) will get arcs only if they serve to create conflicts or voice out thoughts for the main characters. I hope I am wrong about it, I really want to be wrong, but I cannot close my eyes any longer. The author has more or less stated it would happen this way.

This being said, Elhokar as a Willshaper has been discussed, at some point. The argument was his never dying attempt at having Dalinar believe in his paranoia could be interpreted as being resolute. His endeavors at trying to be a good king, despite his failure, may be seen as "resolute and builder". There isn't much else to add to the theory. Theoretically speaking, we do not have any Willshapers yet and they are one of the orders we have been told we wouldn't find much about until the second half. It thus opens the door for someone like Elhokar to step in. However, having flashbacks and a comet-like spren related to one of the order most certainly makes Eshonai a proto-Radiant and Willshaper is the most fitting order. Where does this leave us with the "Elhokar as a Willshaper" theory? I am unsure. I guess it could happen, but Lightweavers seems more appropriate. The argument Elhokar is creative can be made and he has been deceiving, just like Shallan, just very self-centered which makes readers such as myself (who believes Radiants have to stand in for more than themselves) dispute it. 

As for Taravangian, I'd be had pressed to find out where it was discussed. There used to be a topic about him, so perhaps you could use the search engine. If I recall properly, people made the arguments his desire to unite would qualify him as a Bondsmith. I'd say it was rather far-fetched but somehow, each time we have a foe, people are arguing they are turning into Radiants or good persons... As I said earlier, I want some bad guys to remain bad guys because huh we kinda need those.

Edited July 9, 2016 by maxal