Sand Mastery New Info from NewsLetter

[teknopathetic he/him]

Okay, so Brandon has let me say one thing and he has informed me that it is cannon.

Other suns are not able to charge the Whitesand. However, other investitures can charge sand and return its color from black. We will be seeing black sand in places where we shouldn't find it. Stormlight can return the whiteness to the sand. 

If you look closely it is also possible to find evidence of Skycolors being used in future books 'if you watch'. Though this is much different than how one might find evidence of sand being used. The two things are different, but not much is known about Darkside.

 

Edited July 5, 2016 by teknopathetic

[Mestiv he/him]

@teknopathetic what are Skycolors?

[Yata he/him]

6 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Okay, so Brandon has let me say one thing and he has informed me that it is cannon.

Other suns are not able to charge the Whitesand. However, other investitures can charge sand and return its color from black. We will be seeing black sand in places where we shouldn't find it. Stormlight can return the whiteness to the sand. 

If you look closely it is also possible to find evidence of Skycolors being used in future books 'if you watch'. Though this is much different than how one might find evidence of sand being used. The two things are different, but not much is known about Darkside.

 

This is actually mean that Sunlight is Invested on Taldain, I have to rethink abou Taldain's Magic at all.

Thanks for the Information

[Argent he/him]

This is some quality information, @teknopathetic! It not only suggests that Taldain's sun shines Invested sunlight (and is likely Invested itself!), it also points towards the lichen which covers the sand being able to feed on, or at least process in some way, Investiture. Which is a pretty cool thing to have in the Cosmere.

[Yata he/him]

55 minutes ago, Argent said:

This is some quality information, @teknopathetic! It not only suggests that Taldain's sun shines Invested sunlight (and is likely Invested itself!), it also points towards the lichen which covers the sand being able to feed on, or at least process in some way, Investiture. Which is a pretty cool thing to have in the Cosmere.

I have some problem to generate a new model on Taldain's magic who may works for both Dayside and Darkside 

Dayside only:

Spoiler

 

- Sunlight: Vector of Investiture

- Lichen (plant): High Invested being through Sunlight (yes call it being may be a bad wording)

- Human: they Finalizate the Investiture cycle of the plants with their water gaining some ability from them

 

But unless the DarkSide's Humans have a fungi infestation inside them I can't push this model on Darkside's informations

Edited July 5, 2016 by Yata

[Argent he/him]

Considering that the Darkside has a different source of illumination, they could be getting their Investiture from a completely different place - in fact, I think they must be.

[Pathfinder]

Lol so it seems I was right regarding propagating the lichen, and perhaps if we see more sand "farms" pop up mysteriously in the cosmere we can stroke our chins and go "hmmmmm a sand master was here......."

[Pagerunner he/him]

9 minutes ago, Argent said:

Considering that the Darkside has a different source of illumination, they could be getting their Investiture from a completely different place - in fact, I think they must be.

Taldain only has one Shard, so I don't think it can be another magic system.

As a side note, do we know if Darkside has a different source of illumination? Because if there was a moon that was only reflecting UV light from the sun (or maybe a bizarre planet elsewhere in the system), then they could still harness light from Taldain's sun on Darkside, just without the visible portion of the spectrum. 

[Yata he/him]

16 minutes ago, Argent said:

Considering that the Darkside has a different source of illumination, they could be getting their Investiture from a completely different place - in fact, I think they must be.

Now that you made me notice it... On Darkside the lichen don't grow... this mean that their light isn't invested right ? Or some white sand may grow on Darkside....unless other species are more skilled to steal/absord Darkside's light and the lichen die.

[Argent he/him]

35 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Taldain only has one Shard, so I don't think it can be another magic system.

As a side note, do we know if Darkside has a different source of illumination? Because if there was a moon that was only reflecting UV light from the sun (or maybe a bizarre planet elsewhere in the system), then they could still harness light from Taldain's sun on Darkside, just without the visible portion of the spectrum. 

Doesn't have to be a different magic system - just a different manifestation of one. We haven't spent much time in worlds with only a single Shard, but I think the closest analogue we can get is Sel where the Dor kind of acts like a single Shard, but manifests differently in different places. Nalthis would be the obvious place to look, but I hesitate to use it as an analogue because we've seen only one small piece of the world there, and who's to say magic doesn't work differently elsewhere?

I will concede that it's possible for Darkside to be illuminated by reflected sunlight, but I think Brandon has hinted at something a little more complicated (and interesting). It's probably safest to stay away from conclusions for now.

[Pathfinder]

Well lichen is a symbiotic relationship between fungus and algae, so I do not think it is a stretch to imagine the same mechanic takes place on darkside, but with a different type of "fungal" form. There are even lichen that are airborne for their entire life cycle. It is a very hearty "breed", that can exist in a whole host of climates, so having one breed exist on dayside, and another breed exist on darkside with both feeding on different manifestations of investiture is very plausible. Personally I am leaning towards reflected light on another body via the sun. I do not know much about astronomy, so I am unsure if the fact that dayside can see the moon would affect the ability of the moon to reflect the light to darkside or not. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

According to the intro Dark Side has a 'sun' of some sort. I'm leaning toward a neutron star of some sort... It is possible that just like different metals do different things on Scadrial, different light sources do different things on Taldain (while remaining one system.) The lichen can also die for more mundane reasons; UV radiation on Dark Side is much stronger than Dayside. Another possibility is that, since no one has actually brought the sand over to Dark side, the characters are laboring under a a misconception and the lichen will grow. (I actually find this most likely, due to prose spoilers. Also due to Brandon liking it when his characters are wrong... just to trick us readers...)

[teknopathetic he/him]

Whitesand can't be rejuvenated on Darkside by the second sun's light (wob). Though, there might be a workaround.

I continue to believe that the suns are not invested. i have seen no evidence that the suns are invested, and Brandon seems to be putting effort into dispelling this belief. 

___________________

Autonomy wants the two regions to be "autonomous". This means that one side shouldn't be able to disrupt the other.The planet seems to lack autonomy, but i think people are conflating autonomy with anarchy or libertarian-ism. Autonomy is shooting for autonomous regions and societies, not autonomous individual and wills. Autonomy has created a planet with two autonomous regions with magic systems and biospheres that pose no threat to the other region. 

__________________-

 

My guess is that the planet's atmosphere is heavily invested and that the atmosphere (or something) can manipulate and change the sunlight that arrives. The planet seems to be the oddity in this solar system. The planet does not move, but the suns around it  do. The planet seems to be doing all the work in this region, which makes me think it is the planet, not the sun, is granting investiture in two distinct ways. The planet is situated between two stars and it is the planet that is controlling everything.

We haven't seen a shard change a star yet. This might just be because The Lord Ruler etc. never thought to do so, but my guess is that shards have much more control over the planets they invest. Currently, it is much more likely that Taldain invested the sky, rather than that Taldain invested two distant stars. Odium's ability to invest Roshar seems limited, and Roshar is much closer to his planet that this star seems to be to Taldain's world. We know Taldain is not on a star (WOB), so again i think the stars are not the things being invested. 

If the planet's stratosphere etc. is invested, then that would explain why Whitesand can't be used by other suns. And if the magic systems demand different sorts of filtered sunlight, then the two regions would continue to function autonomously. The planet is even inaccessible to world-hoppers, continuing the theme of autonomy and self direction. 

 

 

[Yata he/him]

On 5/7/2016 at 6:29 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

According to the intro Dark Side has a 'sun' of some sort. I'm leaning toward a neutron star of some sort... It is possible that just like different metals do different things on Scadrial, different light sources do different things on Taldain (while remaining one system.) The lichen can also die for more mundane reasons; UV radiation on Dark Side is much stronger than Dayside. Another possibility is that, since no one has actually brought the sand over to Dark side, the characters are laboring under a a misconception and the lichen will grow. (I actually find this most likely, due to prose spoilers. Also due to Brandon liking it when his characters are wrong... just to trick us readers...)

I don't think the Dayside's light and Darkside's light are analous to metals-

The Metals on Scadrial are a Focus... A way through the Investiture is trasformed and became a magical effect. Instead on Taldain the Sunlight is Invested right, but the light isn't the Taldain's Focus (just to see that the White Sand may works without light and can be recharged by other kind of Investiture).

The Sunlight is invested in the same way the Mists of the Highstorm are Invested...an Investiture spreading tool.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Yata

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Then I'm going to go with UV rays are killing the lichen or the characters are wrong about sand not charging on Darkside.

[Pathfinder]

So to be clear, in the newsletter, Brandon said that the magic is powered by the water inside a person's body. The planet is tidely locked, and the sun never sets. He then goes on to say that in fact the sun recharges the sand's power. The connection is sunlight recharges the sand, a person gives water to the sand (which has microscopic lichen like substance living on it which gives the sand its white color), which gives the water to the lichen, which fuels its magical life cycle, which in turn releases the power that lets them control the sand. There is a WoB that the lichen feed on investiture. He literally states the sun recharges it. That implies to me it comes from the sun. The water is the metal, not the sun. The sun is like the mist. Now although I am still leaning towards the sun myself, based on the newsletter, I do like the idea that it is the atmosphere filled with investiture, and the sunlight just "delivers" it. This would also slightly be supported as in another thread, a poster noticed that there is a face in the clouds on 3 or 4 separate occasions in the graphic novel. But as I said, the newsletter itself is pretty big evidence that it is the sun. I am curious to see all the evidence that claims it is not the sun. Also keep in mind, the mists are not the well. Highstorms are not the well. So what makes you all think that the well and investiture delivery system have to be in the exact same place?

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Then I'm going to go with UV rays are killing the lichen or the characters are wrong about sand not charging on Darkside.

Double post to reply to kingsdaughter. Why can't there be a different breed of lichen that likes UV rays on darkside and functions differently as result? Why does dayside have to be the only ones with the monopoly on lichen and why does this lichen only be allowed to have one form?

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

I'm talking about Dayside lichen. Dark side certainly has some, but I can't discuss it here. Only in the prose forum. And photosynthesis actually seems to be pretty important to the process.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Kingsdaughter613

[Pathfinder]

There is no mention of darkside lichen in the prose version. Everything I wrote about darkside lichen is either my own theory, or a WoB which can be discussed. Is there something you read about it I missed? If so, please PM because I would be interested in know 

Edited July 6, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Yata he/him]

@Pathfinder like you already knows I think in the same way as you about Taldain's Magic... But we can't be sure if Taldain's Focus is water or plant, right ?

[Pathfinder]

Just now, Yata said:

@Pathfinder like you already knows I think in the same way as you about Taldain's Magic... But we can't be sure if Taldain's Focus is water or plant, right ?

Lol see I would respond, but I am seen whole threads, pages and pages long discussing what the definition of focus is, and what it is regarding the magics we already know about. So honestly specifying that terminology is beyond me lol. I am just going along the lines that Brandon said water powers the magic, and the sun recharges the sand. So I take that to mean the sun is feeding the lichen investiture, and the sandmaster is providing the water so the lichen can convert the investiture into "food" for its life cycle. The by product of this interaction is that sand masters can move the sand with their minds. The lichen benefit because they continue to live and reproduce. So I take it as the metals are the gateway for the investiture to flow through. So the sun is the investiture, the lichen is the gateway, and the water maintains the reaction. As long as you have metal in your system to maintain the gateway, investiture flows. As long as you have water to maintain that gateway, the investiture flows. I think an interesting question by extension is if a sand master was given water intravenously continually while mastering, could he maintain it indefinitely? Or would the lichen wear out and the sand still drop?

[DSC01 he/him]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I think an interesting question by extension is if a sand master was given water intravenously continually while mastering, could he maintain it indefinitely? Or would the lichen wear out and the sand still drop?

The sand would still run out of Investiture (or, more accurately, the lichen); however, the sand master would be able to continue to master indefinitely, if he had an indefinite supply of sand. The water works like a key, similar to how metal does on Scadrial, but while the metals are finite resource that unlock an infinite source of Investiture, water on Taldain is a finite resource that unlocks a similarly finite one. On Scadrial, they're plugging directly into the source, and on Taldain they're plugging into a battery.

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

The sand would still run out of Investiture (or, more accurately, the lichen); however, the sand master would be able to continue to master indefinitely, if he had an indefinite supply of sand. The water works like a key, similar to how metal does on Scadrial, but while the metals are finite resource that unlock an infinite source of Investiture, water on Taldain is a finite resource that unlocks a similarly finite one. On Scadrial, they're plugging directly into the source, and on Taldain they're plugging into a battery.

The only thing is, we never see the sand run out of investiture before the sand master runs out of water. Every time the sand master has to forcibly stop mastering, is because of dehydration. Anytime, regardless of the length of mastery, sand is mastered it turns black. There is no gradation. The only gradation is the point in which it is being recharged. If the sand has been mastered it is black. If it has been mastered 2 hours ago, it is grayish. However, if you master sand for 1 minute, you get black sand. If you master sand for 1 hour, you get black sand. So although intuitively I agree, there is a finite charge in the sand from the sun, I have not seen this limit anywhere in the graphic novel nor prose, so am unsure if such limit actually exists. 

[WeiryWriter he/him]

On the topic of Dayside vs Darkside magic systems:

Quote

[Reddit - Jul 29, 2015]

Rah179

How significant will the White Sand be to the cosmere? Any hints on the Shard that resides there?

Brandon Sanderson

Moderately. (Its magic has some cool ramifications for off world use, and several characters factor prominently into the cosmere.)

Phantine

Is there more than one magic system in White Sand?

Brandon Sanderson

Only one in the current outline.

WeiryWriter

Does the one magic have more than one variation? Because I got the impression that there was something going on on the Darkside? Though I guess the Sky Colors don't have to be related to magic. Or you could have written them out if they were...

Brandon Sanderson

I intended the colors on Darkside to be more a matter of the ecology than the magic--though, on that planet, magic and ecology are very closely tied together. (Well, I guess most of the magics are.)

 

[DSC01 he/him]

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The only thing is, we never see the sand run out of investiture before the sand master runs out of water. Every time the sand master has to forcibly stop mastering, is because of dehydration. Anytime, regardless of the length of mastery, sand is mastered it turns black. There is no gradation. The only gradation is the point in which it is being recharged. If the sand has been mastered it is black. If it has been mastered 2 hours ago, it is grayish. However, if you master sand for 1 minute, you get black sand. If you master sand for 1 hour, you get black sand. So although intuitively I agree, there is a finite charge in the sand from the sun, I have not seen this limit anywhere in the graphic novel nor prose, so am unsure if such limit actually exists. 

Well, there's tons and tons of sand around, so I got the impression that when someone was mastering constantly, new sand was getting sucked up to replace that which had been drained of Investiture. If not--if you can keep accessing Investiture for as long as you keep mastering the same sand and don't run out of water--then that really raises a question of just what is being recharged by the sun.