Is it just me or do you really don't like Navani

[Erklitt]

I made an experiment:

I read Navani's first scene again: the one where, after her return to the warcamps, she attends the feast and meets Dalinar. And I made a conscious effort to get away from Dalinar's perception, taking his POV comments with a pinch of salt, instead keeping in mind every good thing I have learned about Navani since getting my first (bad) impression of her on my first read.

The change is striking: I suddenly see a sympathetic woman with a keen sense of humor. Dalinar's reaction to her is downright hilarious. Yes, she's forward, but I caught myself liking her for it! She's just as blunt as Dalinar... so: maybe even a good fit?!

Everyone in the 'I don't like Navani' faction (which I think I may have just left - I'll reserve final judgment until after an entire reread): try it sometime!

Gosh, that's humbling. Am I really so easily prejudiced that a first yet possibly false impression can survive three entire reads???
And now I can only hope that no one here feels betrayed...

Edited June 24, 2016 by Erklitt
grammer correction

[SamsonSeaBorn]

17 hours ago, Erklitt said:

I made an experiment:

I read Navani's first scene again: the one where, after her return to the warcamps, she attends the feast and meets Dalinar. And I made a conscious effort to get away from Dalinar's perception, taking his POV comments with a pinch of salt, instead keeping in mind every good thing I have learned about Navani since getting my first (bad) impression of her on my first read.

The change is striking: I suddenly see a sympathetic woman with a keen sense of humor. Dalinar's reaction to her is downright hilarious. Yes, she's forward, but I caught myself liking her for it! She's just as blunt as Dalinar... so: maybe even a good fit?!

Everyone in the 'I don't like Navani' faction (which I think I may have just left - I'll reserve final judgment until after an entire reread): try it sometime!

Gosh, that's humbling. Am I really so easily prejudiced that a first yet possibly false impression can survive three entire reads???
And now I can only hope that no one here feels betrayed...

 This is why I now hate pre radiant Kaladin. >.> Sanderson man... he has a way of portraying self loathing and self pity in a surreal way.

[Guest]

Nobody has to like every single character, but we can all try to be more fair to those we dislike. Sheep has said it in rather eloquent way: in a general manner, readers like Dalinar, so they will take it out on Navani or Adolin for not appearing to be a 100% supportive. 

[Jondesu he/him]

12 hours ago, SamsonSeaBorn said:

 This is why I now hate pre radiant Kaladin. >.> Sanderson man... he has a way of portraying self loathing and self pity in a surreal way.

Incidentally, that's why I like him. Yes, it's disgusting and pitiful, but it's also how I feel most of the time myself. I can truly identify with him, and it sometimes helps me see that maybe my mind is making me think things that aren't true.

jW

[SamsonSeaBorn]

7 hours ago, maxal said:

Nobody has to like every single character, but we can all try to be more fair to those we dislike. Sheep has said it in rather eloquent way: in a general manner, readers like Dalinar, so they will take it out on Navani or Adolin for not appearing to be a 100% supportive. 

Oh trust me, I know I have a bias because I love Syl lol

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, SamsonSeaBorn said:

Oh trust me, I know I have a bias because I love Syl lol

We all have a bias  I am guilty of having the strongest bias of them all: I would never pass judgment on others biases 

[Erklitt]

13 hours ago, maxal said:

We all have a bias  I am guilty of having the strongest bias of them all: I would never pass judgment on others biases 

Just in case this refers to me: if you felt 'judged' by my post, I'm sorry. That wasn't my intention, and that's not what I meant.  I guess you considered my challenge to try the same experiment as a kind of moral duty to Navani? Not at all. I totally agree that no one needs to like every character. I wouldn't even say there's any need 'to be fair to those we dislike' as you posted earlier. 

I'm just very interested in how I'm influenced by the way a character is described. And Navani has puzzled me a great deal, because she always gave me this 'cold vibe' in spite of all those times she proved herself anything but. Realizing how easily and persistently Dalinar's biased comments had taken me in against her was quite an interesting discovery, one that I think might be just as interesting to others. But not a moral duty, not in a light breeze or a highstorm!

By the way, I've come over the next Navani scene in my current reread, and I have to admit, even when I ignore Dalinar's comments, some of the old dislike begins to seep in again. I'll keep my mind open... and in case of further insights I'll keep you posted

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Erklitt said:

Just in case this refers to me: if you felt 'judged' by my post, I'm sorry. That wasn't my intention, and that's not what I meant.  I guess you considered my challenge to try the same experiment as a kind of moral duty to Navani? Not at all. I totally agree that no one needs to like every character. I wouldn't even say there's any need 'to be fair to those we dislike' as you posted earlier. 

I'm just very interested in how I'm influenced by the way a character is described. And Navani has puzzled me a great deal, because she always gave me this 'cold vibe' in spite of all those times she proved herself anything but. Realizing how easily and persistently Dalinar's biased comments had taken me in against her was quite an interesting discovery, one that I think might be just as interesting to others. But not a moral duty, not in a light breeze or a highstorm!

By the way, I've come over the next Navani scene in my current reread, and I have to admit, even when I ignore Dalinar's comments, some of the old dislike begins to seep in again. I'll keep my mind open... and in case of further insights I'll keep you posted

I am absolutely not insulted. I only meant to say you do not have to love all characters and it was fine if you didn't enjoy Navani. It is alright if you have your own biases whenever you are reading the story as we all do, I the first. I would be ill-pressed to start pestering about the straw into someone's eyes when I am guilty of having a plank into mine. I am a horribly biased reader: I have no qualms at admitting it. Those who have been here long enough sure know about it.

This being said, it is great you are able to go back and read bouts with new information in hand in order to challenge your initial perception of one character. I suspect you haven't listened to the second SA3 flashback chapter because I think Navani doesn't come across as being very sympathetic in it. This certainly wouldn't help you. However, I would say fairly judging 3rd person's characters is hard because our perception is highly influenced by the perception of whoever is holding the POV at the current moment. 

It could also be she isn't a character you relate to. This is fine. I don't relate to all characters. I neither love nor hate Navani: she has her moments, but I would say I am quite satisfied with her place within the story. I think her occasional POV adds to the story, but I am not yearning for more, thus labeling her as a very satisfying supporting character. 

[Erklitt]

9 hours ago, maxal said:

I suspect you haven't listened to the second SA3 flashback chapter because I think Navani doesn't come across as being very sympathetic in it. This certainly wouldn't help you.

I think you still misunderstand me (which is fine). I'm not trying to like Navani. I try to analyze my perception where it seems to be at odds with 'written facts'. It's a question of understanding writing techniques more than anything else. If I end up disliking her again, that's fine by me, and I've already found hints of that happening in the second Navani scene of the book, as I mentioned.

I develop string biases, too. Once a character has my loyalty, they'd have a hard time pushing me away by suddenly becoming jerks. (Kaladin made a good effort during his Syl - free time, but didn't succeed even in his darkest moments.) But usually I know why I like or dislike a character, and I know exactly what kind of person is fit to become my hero  (Dalinar...). Those I dislike usually have some trait that I dislike in some real person. Navani was (and still is) an enigma.

By the way, do you have a link to that flashback chapter? I know the one where Dalinar recruits that enemy archer, and Kaladin's arrival at Hearthsone, but hadn't heard of this one and can't find it online.

[ARARITA he/him]

I love Navani - I gave my daughter Navani for her middle name ~~ Eva Navani