Long Game 23: The Siege of Luthadel

[Paranoid King he/him]

2 minutes ago, Mailliw73 said:

I'm only being more convinced to keep my vote. 

...because you think I'm a strong player or a coinshot? Because you think I started as the inquisitor? Or because the inquisitor doesn't matter and you're just aiming for other factions?

Edit in response to mailliw's edit: Elodin joked he was a coinshot. Therefore, he's a suspected coinshot. Therefore, I think he was converted.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Paranoid King
Single-line posts take up too much space

[Mailliw73 he/him]

4 minutes ago, Paranoid King said:

...because you think I'm a strong player or a coinshot? Because you think I started as the inquisitor? Or because the inquisitor doesn't matter and you're just aiming for other factions?

Edit in response to mailliw's edit: Elodin joked he was a coinshot. Therefore, he's a suspected coinshot. Therefore, I think he was converted.

The second two. 

It was a joke... 

[Bugsy he/him]

Maill, you seem to be tunneling on PK a bit. I mean, I can see a little suspicion, but a lot of your argument appears to not be legitimate conviction and more twisting meanings to fit your purpose. For example, I think it's fairly safe to assume (until proven otherwise) that the Inquisitors have a steel spike. PK not putting on a disclaimer that it wasn't yet confirmed doesn't really reflect that negatively on him, IMO; we all know it isn't confirmed, so he could have been just saving keystrokes. 

Also, your mind games earlier seemed like an attempt to plant misinformation regarding the inquisitor and create groundless suspicion that could distract from actual efforts to figure out who was spiked. Just sayin'

Edited July 1, 2016 by Bugsy6912

[dowanx]

I've read through the post and I am going to vote for PK.  I don't really have a good reason why but at the end of reading that's who my gut was leaning towards.

[Amanuensis he/him]

1 minute ago, Bugsy6912 said:

Maill, you seem to be tunneling on PK a bit. I mean, I can see a little suspicion, but a lot of your argument appears to not be legitimate conviction and more twisting meanings to fit your purpose. For example, I think it's fairly safe to assume (until proven otherwise) that the Inquisitors have a steel spike. PK not putting on a disclaimer that it wasn't yet confirmed doesn't really reflect that negatively on him, IMO; we all know it isn't confirmed, so he could have been just saving keystrokes. 

Also, your mind games earlier seemed like an attempt to plant misinformation regarding the inquisitor and create groundless suspicion that could distract from actual efforts to figure out who was spiked. Just sayin'

If you want that vote to count you need to retract on phattemer  FYI

[Bugsy he/him]

1 minute ago, Amanuensis said:

If you want that vote to count you need to retract on phattemer  FYI

I did in my 1st post

[Amanuensis he/him]

Just now, Bugsy6912 said:

I did in my 1st post

Very well then. It that case, Mailliw.

(6) Paranoid King: Sart, Conquestor, Master Elodin, Mckeedee123, The Only Joe, Mailliw73,

(6) Mailliw73: Cloudjumper, OrlokTsubodai, The Young Bard, phattemer, Bugsy6912, Amanuensis,

(3) The Only Joe: Kipper, Nyali, Strawman

(2) Kipper: Jaimeleecee, Arraenae,

(1) Master Elodin: Paranoid King,

(1) Amanuensis: STINK

(1) Stink: Lopen,

(1) Dowanx: Zas678,

(1) Orlok: Elbereth,

(1) Strawman: Burnt Spaghetti,

 

As for my reasoning, I wanted to make the lynch a tie so that I can see who all is willing to make a move to break it. Ya'know, for science.

[Mailliw73 he/him]

6 minutes ago, Bugsy6912 said:

Maill, you seem to be tunneling on PK a bit. I mean, I can see a little suspicion, but a lot of your argument appears to not be legitimate conviction and more twisting meanings to fit your purpose. For example, I think it's fairly safe to assume (until proven otherwise) that the Inquisitors have a steel spike. PK not putting on a disclaimer that it wasn't yet confirmed doesn't really reflect that negatively on him, IMO; we all know it isn't confirmed, so he could have been just saving keystrokes. 

Also, your mind games earlier seemed like an attempt to plant misinformation regarding the inquisitor and create groundless suspicion that could distract from actual efforts to figure out who was spiked. Just sayin'

I'm not tunneling. I don't think he's really that likely to be Spiked. But it's the best I've got. I'm not set though. If you propose a better argument, I'll follow. 

My mind games? What games?

[Bugsy he/him]

1 minute ago, Mailliw73 said:

I'm not tunneling. I don't think he's really that likely to be Spiked. But it's the best I've got. I'm not set though. If you propose a better argument, I'll follow. 

My mind games? What games?

The "team of 7 must have the inquisitor" thing from earlier

[Mailliw73 he/him]

4 minutes ago, Bugsy6912 said:

The "team of 7 must have the inquisitor" thing from earlier

I already admitted(though sarcastically) that I really just did the math wrong. I blame work for frying my brain last night into thinking that 6x4=26.  

[Bugsy he/him]

3 minutes ago, Mailliw73 said:

I already admitted(though sarcastically) that I really just did the math wrong. I blame work for frying my brain last night into thinking that 6x4=26.  

Ah. I totally got that was sarcasm. I blame my jetlag. Still going to leave my vote on you to help Aman with his science

[Mailliw73 he/him]

1 minute ago, Bugsy6912 said:

Ah. I totally got that was sarcasm. I blame my jetlag. Still going to leave my vote on you to help Aman with his science

Phooey. That's a phony science.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

Okay, here are my thoughts on this game so far:

Normally, the village finds eliminators by looking for people that seem to be working together, or with extra information. Right now, there isn't too much of that to look for, since the Inquisitor only knows two House lists and has only a single partner to work with. However, as the game progresses, both of these factors should grow considerably.

Right now, however, there are two things that we can be looking for; players focusing solely on the House War aspect, and players that are mostly ignoring it. Either of these strategies seem like they would be good for the eliminators, since 1) The eliminators aren't actually involved in the House War, so investing in it could be a waste of time, and 2) inflaming the House War will distract attention from the eliminators. Additionally, since these two approaches are total opposites, the two members of the eliminator team could take both of them, and distance themselves from each other very effectively.

Anywho, that is going to lead me to vote for Joe, since his post of having a single member from each house surviving both lines up with the Inquisitors win condition, and is basically irrelevant as an actual strategy.

[Mailliw73 he/him]

Does anyone have a reason for voting for me besides a tie?

[Nyali she/her]

Well, while I still don't trust [ Joe ], I think I'll move my vote to one of the two final candidates instead of the runner up. 

So, [ Maill ], for the same reason I was voting for Joe. People referred to as "chaotic" are not the sort I want to leave around. Also, Maill is a great and highly active player, and I can totally see him getting Spiked on Night 0.

[Bugsy he/him]

I'm now very tempted to change my vote to Joe and keep the tie for longer. It always makes vote analysis more interesting 

Then again, Maill called the intentional ties "Phony science". So I guess I'll just leave my vote where it is

[Mailliw73 he/him]

5 minutes ago, Nyali said:

Well, while I still don't trust [ Joe ], I think I'll move my vote to one of the two final candidates instead of the runner up. 

So, [ Maill ], for the same reason I was voting for Joe. People referred to as "chaotic" are not the sort I want to leave around. Also, Maill is a great and highly active player, and I can totally see him getting Spiked on Night 0.

One more time, since you missed it: I'm not going to be Chaotic this game. I will try to pull off a win for my House, but that's it. No Storm for you guys this game.

1 minute ago, Bugsy6912 said:

I'm now very tempted to change my vote to Joe and keep the tie for longer. It always makes vote analysis more interesting 

Then again, Maill called the intentional ties "Phony science". So I guess I'll just leave my vote where it is

It's phony if you call it a science. A test sure. A science, no. 

[Amanuensis he/him]

14 hours ago, Elbereth said:

Aman: 
Not going to quote the post because it’s long and I want to address all of it, but it’s the one about Chaotics. I don’t know how I feel about you quoting me and then using that to argue against a particular playstyle. The whole point was to show that people weren’t better than each other just because they had different playstyles.

That said, here’s basically how I stand on it: Every one of the categories I listed there can be used well or poorly. Chaotics can use that to great effect or not, as you point out. But every other style has the same problems: Aggressives are an obvious one. Meta’s a perfect example of a good aggressive, but there are certainly bad ones as well. (Fortunately, most of those don’t play anymore. ) On the other hand, Lurkers, a category, you’d normally say is bad, is used quite well by Alvron. No playstyle is good, and no playstyle is bad. It’s how you use that particular skill that counts. It’s just that some playstyles seem to get more flak than others because some of them (particularly Lurkers and Chaotics) tend to irritate the more talkative playstyles like Strategizer. 

But honestly? Everyone is free to play the game however they choose. If you want to play as a Chaotic just to have fun, and take risks and lie even when it hurts your team, that’s entirely your prerogative. Is it what I’d like you to do, or what your team would like you to do? Probably not. And you have to deal with that annoyance, if you want to play that way. But it’s still entirely your choice. 

So while I like the points you made in general, Aman, I think you went a bit too far in telling people how they should play. 

Couple points I did want to address specifically: 

Why would the mods have talked to him about it afterwards? This isn’t a mod problem. This is a player problem. It’s a meta problem. It’s our job to deal with it, if we think it’s necessarily. The mods don’t police our community. They’re not here to fix things like inactives or Chaotics or whatever else. They just make sure everything runs smoothly, and that’s all. It’s up to us to do the rest: as you’re doing right now with this post. You saw a problem, you addressed it, and now it’s a topic for discussion. We’re not immature little kids who have to be policed for good behavior. We can deal with our own problems, and we do. And I personally think that’s awesome. 

Why 19 in particular? That seems oddly specific. 

I'm not saying that the play style itself should be punished (though I can see where that may have been implied). When I was reading through the dead doc I was intrigued by the subject and it left an impression on me. Later, when I was attempting to keep up with the thread and saw it devolving into a chaotic mess, I realized how incredibly dangerous that would be for us in the end, and due to having a lot of strong opinions on these games, I figured I could use it to easily illustrate my point. I agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with a specific play style. It's how it's used that matters to me, so I'm going to speak up if someone is doing something that hurts the village.

I suppose I was kinda telling people how to play, wasn't I? That wasn't necessarily my intent, but I can see how it came off that way. As I said earlier in a response to Elodin, I want him and everyone else to have fun. I would just very much prefer it if they had fun in a way that didn't make it harder for us to win. Since I think in Elodin's case - and a few other players who were doing similar things to him earlier - that he wasn't considering the long term repercussions of it, my only goal was to get him, and everyone, to think a little further than they would normally. If there was a guarantee I could live until the end and see things through, I probably wouldn't be so aggressive about it, but since more often than not I die within the first three cycles of these games, I feel it's important that I give others the tools they'll need to root our the evil ones without me.

As for the business with mods, it's because I see a player willingly going against their win con as destructive and worthy of addressing. Like I said, I don't know if in that scenario Strawman was intentionally sabotaging the village despite being village, but that sorta thing, I thought, is generally thought of us game breaking / against the rules.

If Elodin, or any player, causing chaos is a plan from their House that means they know the reason and the truth of it. Unless he is in the faction of 6, 19 other players in addition to me are all suffering from said chaos. When you throw the Spiked in there who want chaos to keep us from organizing against them, those of us remaining villagers should definitely want to see it end.

14 hours ago, Elbereth said:

Mostly agreed here. 

The “how a player feels for being killed/lynched for being good” - that’s something that happens in every game. Just usually it’s with the eliminator kill rather than the lynch. (Although there have been instances of lynching high-threat players basically just because people are so scared/paranoid about them.) No one wants to die, regardless of threat level. Are you saying we should kill off lower threat players because they’re not useful? Because that’s so much better and fairer. 

But lynching based on suspicion is definitely better, I’d agree. And really? I don’t want to kill dangerous players. Not to be fair to them or anything, because there’s no way to be fair about killing people. But, well, two reasons. First, as Aman said, those players will be really useful in catching the Spiked, in all likelihood. If we kill all of the analysts, the Spiked will have a much easier time pulling off a win in the fog of war that remains. 
In particular, in Aman’s case, he’s even focusing on the Inquisitor a lot more than the faction war anyway. So why not let him keep doing that? Could be a different story in his doc, of course, but he’ll at least be a great help towards finding the Inquisitor, which I judge to be more of an advantage than that gained by killing a high-profile player.
Particularly when there are high-threat players who aren’t focused on the Inquisitor. They’re a lot more dangerous than Aman right now, in my opinion. 
And secondly, because the game’s a lot more interesting when I can test myself against those high-threat players, rather than just killing them all off because they’re a danger. Outwitting is much more fun than just getting rid of them altogether.

I am definitely not saying we need to kill lower threat players because they're not useful. I'm saying that, in the case of the lynch, we should not be using it to posture our Houses but to execute suspicious people and maximize information game. I also wanted to bring up the dangers of killing players off just because they are a threat to your faction; I am willing to bet that Renegade balanced the player composition of every faction as well as the roles and starting resources. If every House makes a serious effort to kill other Houses "high threat players" then the Spiked are going to be much better off. As I've said before, I don't want that to happen because if my House is going to have any chance of winning the Spiked need to die.

I'm glad to see someone else agrees that outwitting people is more fun then simply killing them. You should be careful with agreeing with me about so much though. People might begin to suspect we're working together. 

[Nyali she/her]

8 minutes ago, Mailliw73 said:

One more time, since you missed it: I'm not going to be Chaotic this game. I will try to pull off a win for my House, but that's it. No Storm for you guys this game.

Oh, well, my second point still stands.

[Amanuensis he/him]

18 minutes ago, Nyali said:

Well, while I still don't trust [ Joe ], I think I'll move my vote to one of the two final candidates instead of the runner up. 

So, [ Maill ], for the same reason I was voting for Joe. People referred to as "chaotic" are not the sort I want to leave around. Also, Maill is a great and highly active player, and I can totally see him getting Spiked on Night 0.

Awww, Nyali! You ruined my plan. I was trying to get PK to vote for Mailliw so I could retract my vote again to make it a tie and force more players to get involved. Now I have to vote for PK and retract from Mailliw to make my dream come true.

(7) Paranoid King: Sart, Conquestor, Master Elodin, Mckeedee123, The Only Joe, Mailliw73, Amanuensis,

(6) Mailliw73: Cloudjumper, OrlokTsubodai, The Young Bard, phattemer, Bugsy6912, Nyali,

(3) The Only Joe: Kipper,  Strawman, Araris Valerian,

(2) Kipper: Jaimeleecee, Arraenae,

(1) Master Elodin: Paranoid King,

(1) Amanuensis: STINK

(1) Stink: The Mighty Lopen,

(1) dowanx: zas678,

(1) OrlokTsubodai: Elbereth,

(1) Strawman: Burnt Spaghetti,

Edited June 30, 2016 by Amanuensis

[Nyali she/her]

Except now it's NOT a tie

[Amanuensis he/him]

2 minutes ago, Nyali said:

Except now it's NOT a tie

It will be when PK votes for Mailliw to preserve himself 

[Alvron]

That's easy enough to fix.  Maill.

If my count is correct then only Silver Dragon is yet to vote. Edit: Although I'm not sure if Stinks vote will count.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Alvron

[Mailliw73 he/him]

12 minutes ago, Nyali said:

Oh, well, my second point still stands.

It also could be applied to you.

3 minutes ago, Alvron said:

That's easy enough to fix.  Maill.

If my count is correct then only Silver Dragon is yet to vote. Edit: Although I'm not sure if Stinks vote will count.

Thanks... Why, milord? A D1 lynch on your first Recruit? I'm disappointed.

whu wouldn't it count?

3 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

It will be when PK votes for Mailliw to preserve himself 

Thanks... Though I do believe that if I get lynched, it was your fault. 

Edited June 30, 2016 by Mailliw73

[Paranoid King he/him]

21 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Awww, Nyali! You ruined my plan. I was trying to get PK to vote for Mailliw so I could retract my vote again to make it a tie and force more players to get involved. Now I have to vote for PK and retract from Mailliw to make my dream come true.

...But I don't think Mailliw is guilty. And I don't think piling more votes onto the same two people will help much. I mean, I guess it could show which of the two of us is more popular, but that's not really game-relevant. I've voiced my suspicions of Elodin, but since it looks like he's not getting lynched, I'll switch to Alvron, Dowanx, or Silverdragon. I think we need as many active people as possible if we want to find the spiked, and voting on them will be a reminder to be more active.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Paranoid King
Greened vote