Szeth and Screaming-Spren-Swords (spoiler-y ness)

[Blightsong]

My biggest idea on this issue is that having shard plate blocks this from happening, similar to how it blocks emotional allomancy. Most people with shardblades either have plate, or don't live long on the battlefield (I presume, it would make them a target and they wouldn't plate to protect them). It likely takes a lot of human lives for this to occur either way, if this this theory is correct.

Shardblades doing this really is my only idea on how this happened. Brandon's reply to my question implies that it is due to Szeths actions, not outside influence, and the only change in Szeth from pre to post Taravangian is having killed tons of people.

WoB for reference:

INTERVIEW: Apr 8th, 2016

OdysseyCon 2016

BLIGHTSONG

Is anything magical going on with the screams Szeth hears?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Uhhh, Szeth's screams. Uhhm, I'm trying to decide how to answer this. It is not, see here's the thing. What we would call magical may not be considered magical in the Cosmere, but it depends on your definition of magic. Would Szeth if he were on our planet and have done those things would he hear those screams, probably not, but would someone else in the Cosmere who had gone through what he had gone through hear those screams, yes.

BLIGHTSONG

So it has to do with the spiritual realm?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yea, mhmm, yea.

TAGS

Szeth, screams,

[Jondesu]

I don't think the Plate can be what changes it. There are a number of Shardbearers in the Alethi army with Blade but not Plate, and this isn't something that's ever alluded to with anyone else.

jW

[natc]

It does worry me that all honorblade users we've come across (Szeth or Herald) doesn't seem quite sane though.

Doesn't rapid investing of one's self normally result in the widening of spiritual cracks? Honorblades use stormlight "dangerously" quickly . . .

[Eki]

It does worry me that all honorblade users we've come across (Szeth or Herald) doesn't seem quite sane though.

Doesn't rapid investing of one's self normally result in the widening of spiritual cracks? Honorblades use stormlight "dangerously" quickly . . .

That's an interesting point, but the Heralds were also tortured for like... thousands of years. I think that's more likely to have damaged their psyches.

[Pathfinder]

My biggest idea on this issue is that having shard plate blocks this from happening, similar to how it blocks emotional allomancy. Most people with shardblades either have plate, or don't live long on the battlefield (I presume, it would make them a target and they wouldn't plate to protect them). It likely takes a lot of human lives for this to occur either way, if this this theory is correct.

Shardblades doing this really is my only idea on how this happened. Brandon's reply to my question implies that it is due to Szeths actions, not outside influence, and the only change in Szeth from pre to post Taravangian is having killed tons of people.

WoB for reference:

INTERVIEW: Apr 8th, 2016

OdysseyCon 2016

BLIGHTSONG

Is anything magical going on with the screams Szeth hears?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Uhhh, Szeth's screams. Uhhm, I'm trying to decide how to answer this. It is not, see here's the thing. What we would call magical may not be considered magical in the Cosmere, but it depends on your definition of magic. Would Szeth if he were on our planet and have done those things would he hear those screams, probably not, but would someone else in the Cosmere who had gone through what he had gone through hear those screams, yes.

BLIGHTSONG

So it has to do with the spiritual realm?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yea, mhmm, yea.

TAGS

Szeth, screams,

Well here is the thing as to why I feel that WoB throws out the theory that it is the honorblade or shardblade, and that shardplate shields it. I have bolded below:

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Uhhh, Szeth's screams. Uhhm, I'm trying to decide how to answer this. It is not, see here's the thing. What we would call magical may not be considered magical in the Cosmere, but it depends on your definition of magic. Would Szeth if he were on our planet and have done those things would he hear those screams, probably not, but would someone else in the Cosmere who had gone through what he had gone through hear those screams, yes.

 

He did not say if someone else in the Cosmere wielded an honorblade, they would experience that. He said if someone else, anywhere else went through what Szeth went through, they would hear screams. That to me means if Wax went around whole sale slaughtering people, he would experience that. If Silence Montane went around whole sale slaughtering people, she would experience that. And so on. No honorblade or shardblade required. In fact there is another thread where people are wondering if there is a shard influencing characters on various worlds as there seems to be a trend of dissection (Nan Balat, Bloody Tan, etc). Who is to say those characters are not suffering from similar effects of their actions? Again without any honorblade or shardblade needed. 

[Jondesu]

I don't think it's even the wholesale slaughter specifically. A mass murderer who believed they were doing the right thing probably wouldn't hear any screams, I'd bet. Szeth feels forced into what he's doing. My bet is that's more of a factor than just the fact that he's slaughtering innocents. Especially in light of his internal dialogue as he's doing it.

jW

[Pathfinder]

I don't think it's even the wholesale slaughter specifically. A mass murderer who believed they were doing the right thing probably wouldn't hear any screams, I'd bet. Szeth feels forced into what he's doing. My bet is that's more of a factor than just the fact that he's slaughtering innocents. Especially in light of his internal dialogue as he's doing it.

jW

Makes sense, otherwise there would be a lot of insane asylums across the cosmere lol. 

[KnightRadiant]

I don't think it's even the wholesale slaughter specifically. A mass murderer who believed they were doing the right thing probably wouldn't hear any screams, I'd bet. Szeth feels forced into what he's doing. My bet is that's more of a factor than just the fact that he's slaughtering innocents. Especially in light of his internal dialogue as he's doing it.

jW

Yeah, this does make sense. Especially since we know that how you view yourself has an effect on who you are, both on earth and the Cosmere, as illustrated by Kaladin's slave scars and the Returned on Nalthis.

[Alfa]

But it seems that it has (at least partly) to do with the spiritual realm, meaning it has more to do with how you are, than with how you see yourself.

[Eki]

But it seems that it has (at least partly) to do with the spiritual realm, meaning it has more to do with how you are, than with how you see yourself.

That part could maybe be more about the victims than the killer. Probably both.

[shadowwisp]

If the screams have something to do with the spiritual realm, I wonder if Nightblood would have any sort of effect on them.

IIRC, unlike Shardblades and Honorblades, Nightblood can affect the spiritual realm. 

Edited June 8, 2016 by shadowwisp

[thegatorgirl00]

I think that if someone had tried to use Soulforgery on Szeth to make him a mass murderer before he became Truthless it would have been immediately rejected. I think the screams are something similar--his soul trying to "reject" his actions because they are not plausible enough due to the way he was raised and his devotion to the law.

[Pathfinder]

I think that if someone had tried to use Soulforgery on Szeth to make him a mass murderer before he became Truthless it would have been immediately rejected. I think the screams are something similar--his soul trying to "reject" his actions because they are not plausible enough due to the way he was raised and his devotion to the law.

But it was his devotion to the law that resulted in him killing all those people. 

[Blightsong]

Well here is the thing as to why I feel that WoB throws out the theory that it is the honorblade or shardblade, and that shardplate shields it. I have bolded below:

 

BRANDON SANDERSONUhhh, Szeth's screams. Uhhm, I'm trying to decide how to answer this. It is not, see here's the thing. What we would call magical may not be considered magical in the Cosmere, but it depends on your definition of magic. Would Szeth if he were on our planet and have done those things would he hear those screams, probably not, but would someone else in the Cosmere who had gone through what he had gone through hear those screams, yes.

 

He did not say if someone else in the Cosmere wielded an honorblade, they would experience that. He said if someone else, anywhere else went through what Szeth went through, they would hear screams. That to me means if Wax went around whole sale slaughtering people, he would experience that. If Silence Montane went around whole sale slaughtering people, she would experience that. And so on. No honorblade or shardblade required. In fact there is another thread where people are wondering if there is a shard influencing characters on various worlds as there seems to be a trend of dissection (Nan Balat, Bloody Tan, etc). Who is to say those characters are not suffering from similar effects of their actions? Again without any honorblade or shardblade needed.

Who is to say? Well, Brandon of course, but he has not confirmed that at all and it is purely speculation, while Szeth's screams we know for a fact deal with the spiritual realm. I don't think it is reasonable at all to start saying that all things that could most likely boil down to mental illness (brain chemistry still works the same in the Cosmere) just because we have one confirmed example of this.

As for your example that if Wax went around killing people he would also hear screams, I doubt it. We have seen characters murder people in extremely large quantities (i.e. when vin attacks Cett) and this did not happen. The only difference between these two events (or any time we have seen a character kill many people and not experience the screams) is the honorblade, so I would assume that to be the cause.

I don't think the Plate can be what changes it. There are a number of Shardbearers in the Alethi army with Blade but not Plate, and this isn't something that's ever alluded to with anyone else.

jW

I seriously doubt that any shard bearer with only a blade could ever kill the same number of people as Szeth, it probably wouldn't even be close. They just don't have the survivability that Szeth does to be able to do it. Just having a shard alone would make them massive targets on the battle field, I doubt someone with just a blade would even attempt combat without plate because of how focused every enemy would be on taking them down.

[Argel]

What about the screams that KRs hear when wielding a dead-spren shardblade? Could the screams Szeth hears be related in some way (maybe not directly, but e.g. a similar process).

[Blightsong]

What about the screams that KRs hear when wielding a dead-spren shardblade? Could the screams Szeth hears be related in some way (maybe not directly, but e.g. a similar process).

I doubt it. That dead spren screams seem pretty distinctly magical in nature.

[Pathfinder]

Who is to say? Well, Brandon of course, but he has not confirmed that at all and it is purely speculation, while Szeth's screams we know for a fact deal with the spiritual realm. I don't think it is reasonable at all to start saying that all things that could most likely boil down to mental illness (brain chemistry still works the same in the Cosmere) just because we have one confirmed example of this.

As for your example that if Wax went around killing people he would also hear screams, I doubt it. We have seen characters murder people in extremely large quantities (i.e. when vin attacks Cett) and this did not happen. The only difference between these two events (or any time we have seen a character kill many people and not experience the screams) is the honorblade, so I would assume that to be the cause.

I seriously doubt that any shard bearer with only a blade could ever kill the same number of people as Szeth, it probably wouldn't even be close. They just don't have the survivability that Szeth does to be able to do it. Just having a shard alone would make them massive targets on the battle field, I doubt someone with just a blade would even attempt combat without plate because of how focused every enemy would be on taking them down.

That was answered by Jondesu. Wax killing criminals knows he is stopping "bad people". Serial killers think they are "doing the right thing". Only Szeth kills countless people, but also condemns himself for their deaths. As I pointed out, Brandon said anyone in the entire cosmere could have gone through what Szeth went through. If it had to be the result of an honorblade, then he would have said as much. Otherwise assuming that anyone in the cosmere would end up with an honorblade or a dead spren blade and kill tons of people is a stretch. Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No. Your question was directly about the screams and Szeth. If the honorblade was a requirement in what was occurring, especially off planet, it would have needed to come up in the discussion. It did not. I think that is a pretty clear sign the two are unrelated. 

 

What about the screams that KRs hear when wielding a dead-spren shardblade? Could the screams Szeth hears be related in some way (maybe not directly, but e.g. a similar process).

Again, honorblades are functionally different than dead-spren blades. In addition is all I stated above. Cats and Dogs have a common ancestor but that is no reason to believe the ancestor is going to act like a cat or a dog in your home. 

 

edit: also consider this. If the dead spren/ honorblade was the cause, then when the recreance occured, you had countless people with shardblades, but with no idea how to get shardplate to work. Shardblades need a gemstone to bond, but you can still very much carry and swing it around. Shardplate however needs gem stones to run at all. Without stormlight it is dead weight that you cannot move in. It wasn't till later that they learned how to power the plate and bond the blade. So what occurred during all that time where people were swinging shardblades around without shardplate? Did they all go nuts like Szeth? They most certainly took a lot of lives. That very scene has them all fighting over the blades and killing each other. So it was happening from the word go. 

Edited June 9, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Blightsong]

That was answered by Jondesu. Wax killing criminals knows he is stopping "bad people". Serial killers think they are "doing the right thing". Only Szeth kills countless people, but also condemns himself for their deaths. As I pointed out, Brandon said anyone in the entire cosmere could have gone through what Szeth went through. If it had to be the result of an honorblade, then he would have said as much. Otherwise assuming that anyone in the cosmere would end up with an honorblade or a dead spren blade and kill tons of people is a stretch. Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No. Your question was directly about the screams and Szeth. If the honorblade was a requirement in what was occurring, especially off planet, it would have needed to come up in the discussion. It did not. I think that is a pretty clear sign the two are unrelated.

Again, honorblades are functionally different than dead-spren blades. In addition is all I stated above. Cats and Dogs have a common ancestor but that is no reason to believe the ancestor is going to act like a cat or a dog in your home.

edit: also consider this. If the dead spren/ honorblade was the cause, then when the recreance occured, you had countless people with shardblades, but with no idea how to get shardplate to work. Shardblades need a gemstone to bond, but you can still very much carry and swing it around. Shardplate however needs gem stones to run at all. Without stormlight it is dead weight that you cannot move in. It wasn't till later that they learned how to power the plate and bond the blade. So what occurred during all that time where people were swinging shardblades around without shardplate? Did they all go nuts like Szeth? They most certainly took a lot of lives. That very scene has them all fighting over the blades and killing each other. So it was happening from the word go.

I could argue that technically anyone could use an Honorblade to kill a bunch of people, but I agree that it probably would have come up in the conversation. Someone will have to ask him to be sure.

[Pathfinder]

I could argue that technically anyone could use an Honorblade to kill a bunch of people, but I agree that it probably would have come up in the conversation. Someone will have to ask him to be sure.

True but also we are relatively certain (unless new news came up that I do not know), that all the honorblades are still on Roshar. Dead Sprenblades could hypthetically be stolen and taken off world by a world hopper, but I still feel if that was the case we would have seen something more. Other than Nightblood that is lol. 

 

edit: I know Nightblood is not a dead-spren blade, just he is the closest we have seen to either honorblade or spren blade that was on a planet other than Roshar. 

Edited June 9, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Jondesu]

Keep in mind too, for someone to do what Szeth did on any other world (with the Honorblade, that is) they'd need access to Stormlight, or a hack to use some other investiture. The Honorblade itself would just be a sword that cuts really well, but wouldn't grant the survivability that was mentioned earlier. I don't think the Honorblade is responsible for the screams, for the reasons others have stated already.

jW

[dvoraen]

I can't access Theoryland right now, but the WoB Argel refers to said that screams were a side effect of some element of Realmatics and that anyone in Cosmere would hear those screams if they did what Szeth did, regardless of which planet they were on. A typical Rosharan wouldn't find it magical because it's part of physics of this universe.

This leads me to wondering one thing:

 

- Would Marsh have heard the same things from his actions in The Hero of Ages?

 

(I'm getting at whether it has to do with Spiritually damaging someone or not, as Hemalurgy and Shardblades both do.)

[Pathfinder]

This leads me to wondering one thing:

 

- Would Marsh have heard the same things from his actions in The Hero of Ages?

 

(I'm getting at whether it has to do with Spiritually damaging someone or not, as Hemalurgy and Shardblades both do.)

I didn't think of that, so upvote, but I do not think so. Marsh can literally say "the devil made me do it". So if the theory that you have to genuinely believe what you are doing is wrong, but still do it, and blame yourself is why you get the screams, then it wouldn't happen to Marsh. He wasn't doing it, Ruin made him.